The Wrighter’s Block Episode 36 – Hannah Cox Gets Wrighter’s Block

DISCLOSURE

FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT

02:03
[Music]
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oh all right put down your pens foot
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down your pencil step away from the
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keyboards and settle in for this week’s
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episode of the writer’s block
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first and foremost allow me to thank Don
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ins Sally right for giving birth to me
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because without them none of this would
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be possible also thanks to muddied
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waters media for allowing me to do this
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show and yes I understand the irony
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because it’s my company and finally
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allow me to thank stateside cava for the
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kaabah that I am drinking on today’s
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episode to everybody above bula vinaka
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today I’m very happy to bring on my
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guest
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she is Hannah Cox she is the national
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manager of conservatives concerned about
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the death penalty she was previously
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director of outreach for the beacon
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Center of Tennessee a free-market
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think-tank and before that she was the
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director of development for the for the
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Tennessee firearms Association and a
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policy advocate for the National
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Alliance on Mental Illness
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she has a Newsmax column called life and
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liberty so check that out allow me to
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welcome on my guest Miss Hannah Cox
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Hannah thank you so much for coming on
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how are you today thanks for having me
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I’m good I’m house-sitting for my
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parents right now in South Carolina so
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I’ve got a lot more space than I’m used
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to this week and I’m loving it yeah
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that’s amazing that half of so muddied
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waters a
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muddied waters media right now consists
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of me
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spike Cohen who hosts my fellow
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Americans on Wednesday and Jason Lyons
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who hosts mr. America the bearded truth
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on Mondays and Fridays they’re both in
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South Carolina and I’m here in Florida
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so like most of this company is located
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where you are right now covered yeah
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so you and I met at yell Con in Reston
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Virginia in DC last in the last summer I
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don’t remember what it was exactly right
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yes those past mats issue but there is a
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relatively decent chance that we have
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crossed paths
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before and probably multiple times
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probably very often now that you may get
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this connection for me because you used
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to work it what is arguably one of my
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favorite restaurants in Nashville and
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where I wish I didn’t have to admit I
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spent as much time as I did but I’m
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there
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it’s called mafiosos and I love the
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Mafia I’m very fascinated by it so that
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not alone brought me in and then it was
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sort of a libertarian hangout you know
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at a month first libertarian groups
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Larry on the rocks
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and then also they just have amazing
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pizza they have two per ones on Tuesday
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night so yeah for the past twelve years
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since college I’ve been a lot of money
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there yeah
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but Tuesday nights were the bane of my
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existence I can’t even imagine like and
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this is probably going to be the least
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libertarian thing I’ve ever ever gonna
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say on any show that we have on the on
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this channel but there were Tuesday
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nights where I considered learning how
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to pickpocket
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so when you would go through the large
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crowds of people I would just start
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taking wallets from people because I
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hated every college kid that was in
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there yeah well you know back in the day
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when I was in college Nashville was so
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small it didn’t have that many
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restaurants it’s ER who else did
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two-for-one right I’m Lenny so it was
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you went on Tuesday night there was a
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cop yes I remember people leaves to ID
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you to get in and make sure you were one
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it was a thing to come on yeah that was
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his name was Matt his name was Matt many
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people referred to him as hot cop he had
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a at one point he had a Craigslist
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missed connection written about him yeah
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I can’t remember who found that but man
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we printed that out and every Tuesday we
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would have those things plastered where
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he would stand in no nice guy super nice
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guy expired and look nothing like me so
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I think it wasn’t it wasn’t a quad
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whitey
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right yeah but most of the people they
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show
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up there I was like well they’ve been
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ID’d outside I’m not worrying about it
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but I know for certain that person is
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not old enough to be here yeah no not my
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issue but ya know like when we first
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became friends on Facebook like we had
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all the obvious ones and then I started
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seeing all the others I was like wait a
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minute that person I have never had a
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discussion about politics with him
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that’s really interesting and then I
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started seeing more and I was like oh I
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know where she went to school
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immediately that’s right yeah Brett I
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actually keep I actually keep a Belmont
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sweatshirt that my buddy Dylan Ammerman
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gave me in this room for when it gets
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cold in here I’ll put it on while I’m
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doing work I write you know and business
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music degrees go really far in life from
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what I hear I think I was one of like
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five people my graduating class that
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actually got a full-time job the music
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industry when I came out and I didn’t
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pay anything yeah really really work
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that private education they’re great for
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sure I remember I was waiting on it I
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was waiting on a table it was like it
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was like a like eight or nine people at
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this table and most of them worked I
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think a couple of them were in
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restaurants and then others were just
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friends of them and they were one of the
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girls was talking she was stressing her
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exams and I was like don’t worry about
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it you’re gonna be fine I’m guessing
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you’re a music business major and her
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friends just started laughing and I said
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yeah how’d you know that cuz everybody’s
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a music business major but once you get
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that degree don’t worry because you can
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get a job here yeah with the music
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business degree they start laughing I
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was like no seriously I turned around I
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started pointing to people’s like music
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business major music business major just
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throughout the entire restaurant like
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everybody but me and I was like I didn’t
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spend 120 grand on college and I got
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this job I mean one of my friends got a
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vocal
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major from Belmont I think he’s a
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bartender yeah I start off with a
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songwriting major I thought well we
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still have a business degree at the
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other day I want to stay in this I’m not
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totally up a creek and lo and behold
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after you know five years of making
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nothing and having no job stability I
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decided I didn’t want to stay in that
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industry so it panned out I think it in
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the day you know one thing that I think
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is interesting about it it comes back to
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my beliefs actually I think we push too
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many people into college and I get asked
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all the time now especially on social
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media what did you do to go to school to
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do what you do I want to do what you do
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and I say I didn’t go to school for this
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one bit I worked my butt off and I
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transition into it and you can do that
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you know and I think that that’s thing
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about America you’re actually not trap
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still there’s still so much opportunity
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if you’re just willing to work right so
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this is this is actually gonna be this
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is gonna be a little interesting for me
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because you and I actually agree so I
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actually on this subject you and I agree
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so I had to look up opposing points in
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order to try to play like devil’s
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advocate a little bit so this be pro
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death penalty so I can even play devil’s
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advocate with myself a little bit right
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yeah I mean so I used to be pro as well
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and every argument that I had for it I’m
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like now I’m like what that’s that’s
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just a bad art yeah that’s a bad
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argument so I had to throw all of those
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out the window and actually looked for
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good ones I don’t even know if I found
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good ones I just found some of it I was
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like yeah that’s not that you know this
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person sounds smart they made it sound
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decent so first what I found is that
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according to a poll in 2017 by Gallup
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55% of Americans support the death
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penalty now that being said 55% of
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Americans means absolutely nothing to me
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but is there any instance in which you
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feel that the death penalty is
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acceptable so I want to sort of cage
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this with coming from my old point of
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view which was very Pro and I think that
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I when I’m now discussing this having
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changed my opinion after being presented
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with so much evidence that it
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became impossible to not change my
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opinion on it I still really do
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understand the feeling of where people
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are coming from when they’re and
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supported the death penalty I think
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that’s important but also I do want to
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point out it’s a feeling it’s an
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emotional argument I think what most
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people have gut reaction to the death
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penalty’s right out the gate they either
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think it’s morally wrong or that they
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think it’s morally just and they kind of
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stick with that and never look into it
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further I always say support vedepo only
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runs a mile wide and an inch deep
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because the minute you start actually
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looking into how its operating most
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people cannot stand by it anymore
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that being said I still very much
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understand the desire for justice the
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desire for vengeance the need to feel
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like you’re doing something in the face
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of evil or violence I think all of those
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things makes sense but at the end of the
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day you either get the system as it
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operates or you don’t
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and we’ve seen since the late 1970s when
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it was brought back that all sorts of
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mitigating factors and aggravating
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factors and all these parameters were
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put in place to try to ensure that it
11:57
operated more fairly but we now have
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over four decades with the data that
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proves conclusively it’s still not
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operating efficiently or fairly or in a
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way that is not killing innocent people
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and so at that point I have to say we
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can’t have it so rather or not I think
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there’s ever a case where it’s justified
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maybe but I don’t think you can approach
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the subject in that matter because you
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don’t get to do that everybody would say
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they support it for the worst of the
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worst right but probably that subjective
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first and foremost and secondly even we
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could define that not happening that’s
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fair I mean I did put that in there just
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to be like let’s throw this one right in
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at the beginning see what happens all
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right so yeah cause like what what so
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many people whenever I start talking
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about the death penalty with people what
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many of them go to is what if they
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molested and raped a child and then
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killed it and like yeah do I think that
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person should be alive no I don’t but I
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don’t but at the same time I don’t think
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it’s up to the government to say this is
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this is this is what we’re doing so yeah
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so
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in my in my research today after I got
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off my other job
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Annamarie Schubert from Sacramento
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County
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she is the DA from Sacramento County she
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says that most survivors want justice
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for their murdered friends and family
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repealing the death penalty would not
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heal their wounds but keep them
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permanently open now for me when I when
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I read that I was like ok 1 I don’t know
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if that’s actually true on on whether or
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not most survivors want justice for
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their murdered friends and family also
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it is an emotional gut feeling that
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you’re gonna have right at that moment
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not a logical one but how how would you
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come how would you respond to that with
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somebody well I say everybody wants
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justice for their loved one but do they
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want the death penalty and the answer is
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a resounding no not everybody wants
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definitely we work with many victims
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family members people very very strongly
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and and I want to say who’ve been
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through different phases within that you
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know some of them from the get-go were
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anti-death-penalty and didn’t want that
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and don’t like they didn’t with that on
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their hands and I felt that it added
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more grief as they were trying to
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process what had happened I asking to
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also deal with that question and putting
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out on their hands is a lot for them and
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felt like more trauma we have others who
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were told by prosecutors in DA’s just
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like this woman that it would provide
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closure for them and who then got drug
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through the system for decades and
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decades and decades some of them even
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going all the way through an execution
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and then feeling like they were like to
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you this didn’t actually give them
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closure it didn’t actually give them the
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finality and in reality the waiting for
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that finality kept the wound open for
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them and prevented them from really
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being able to have closure early on and
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heal and move forward and so I always
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really just like when people try to use
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victims as pawns in this argument which
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is what I think people like that are
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doing I would never attempt to speak for
15:02
all victims victims feel vastly
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different there’s a lot of nuance how
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they feel but it’s certainly not true
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that all of them want this and so I
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think it’s unfortunate that’s so often
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the percentage of victims who might want
15:13
this or use and the rest are discounted
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and I will add as well when you look at
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the amount of homicides cleared in this
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country
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an average clearance rate of only 51%
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nationally
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that’s not getting justice for all
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that’s not tough on crime when you’re
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spending millions and millions of
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dollars to pursue a few cherry-pick
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death penalty cases but letting almost
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half of homicides go completely unsolved
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about those victims
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yeah that’s an amazing point one of our
15:41
regular listeners Brian Wolfe
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commented he’s sorry that he showed up
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late it’s okay Brian we forgive you but
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he wants to know what would be ultra
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alternatives to the death penalty I
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think that we’re seeing a lot of states
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over the past 20 years or so that
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started to implement life in prison
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without parole and there’s a real
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difference when you say that people have
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an opinion that you can get out with a
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life sentence and that’s true if
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someone’s given a life sentence they can
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be let out before the conclusion of
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their lives but life without parole is
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quite different that really does mean
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you cannot be paroled you’re not getting
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out unless you’re giving clemency or
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your case is overturned and so we’re
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seeing a huge downtick and new death
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sentences since 2000 and they’re down
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about 60% and I would argue that’s
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because juries not have that option a
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lot of states that they didn’t for a
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very long time so so life life in prison
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without parole is kind of a newer newer
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thing you know in a lot of states yes
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we’re still I think Texas only added it
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recently in Tennessee actually last year
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one of the people that was executed and
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then Zagorski one of his jurors actually
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spoke out I think he was convicted in
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the late 80s early 90s and the juror
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said if we’d had this option of life in
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prison without parole we wouldn’t have
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given him the death penalty we thought
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he might be an ongoing threat but what
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he did you know we don’t I wouldn’t have
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thought roast that level I know in the
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juror room like others would have felt
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the same way from our deliberations and
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this would have caused us to think
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differently about this so yeah I think
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it’s had a huge impact on how we’re
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seeing people sentence I think when
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juries are given other options where
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they know someone will not be released
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back out that they believe to be
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dangerous they’re going for that option
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instead of death a lot of the time right
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so I mean thanks thank you to Netflix
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for this but because of Netflix Ted
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Bundy is now trending again at like
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everybody everybody talks about Ted
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I saw the documentary of the Ted Bundy
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tapes and I watched the movie with Zac
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Efron yeah
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Zac Efron not breath and like the movie
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was okay I guess the Ted Bundy tapes
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were fun to watch and when you’re
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watching it you’re like yeah this guy
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deserved to die but at the same time did
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he deserve did the state do the right
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thing and being like okay we’re gonna
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we’re just gonna execute you and so and
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dislike at the same time it had been
18:05
these back in the media so much I’m just
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like everybody else I’m fascinated by
18:09
serial killers it’s an interesting
18:11
phenomenon but the reality is true
18:13
serial killers people who are real
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Psychopaths like a Ted Bundy that’s such
18:19
a rarity in the criminal justice system
18:20
that really is less than like 1% of
18:22
cases that you see the reality is you
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don’t see very many serial killers
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that’s why you know their names and
18:27
secondly the other important factor is
18:30
you really don’t see people like Ted
18:31
Bundy that often who just become violent
18:33
for no reason that we can see right
18:36
typically you’re dealing with people in
18:37
the criminal justice population what you
18:39
quickly find out is that this dichotomy
18:41
most of this picture between victim and
18:42
perpetrator is not there it’s typically
18:45
someone who’s one in the same and they
18:47
typically have had severus abuse and
18:50
trauma and it’s treatment typically in
18:51
their childhood before they become
18:53
violent it’s very rare for someone and
18:54
just wake up and to become a Ted Bundy
18:57
and so the problem with that is that
18:58
while it’s entertaining I think many
19:01
people get the perception that this is
19:03
something that happens a lot and that’s
19:06
really difficult when you’re trying to
19:08
actually help people see behind the
19:09
curtain with the criminal justice system
19:11
uh but secondly I think one thing she
19:14
had someone in a facebook debate with me
19:15
today say what about Jeffrey Dahmer you
19:17
don’t think you should get the death
19:17
penalty and yeah maybe I do but he
19:20
didn’t I think if you start looking into
19:22
these cases of who gets the death
19:24
penalty you’ll actually be really
19:25
surprised by who gets it oftentimes the
19:28
people that I think most would agree are
19:29
the worst of the worse or who are the
19:31
serial killers don’t get the death
19:32
penalty that’s right dumber
19:33
Dahmer got killed in jail right No well
19:36
he might he was not sentenced to death
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well no I think I think somebody like
19:40
beat him to death in jail I think that’s
19:43
how he went out but that could have yeah
19:45
but he was
19:46
it’s today okay and not okay now there
19:50
was one of the 9/11 conspirators so in
19:52
reality when you start digging into
19:53
who’s getting the death penalty it’s
19:55
really very arbitrary and I think that’s
19:57
super interesting if you start looking
19:59
at the data it’s only about two percent
20:00
of counties that are bringing the
20:02
majority of death penalty cases and to
20:04
date all of our execution since
20:06
reinstatement have come from less than
20:07
16 percent of counties so it actually
20:10
has a lot more to do with where the
20:11
crime is committed versus what the
20:13
person did when you’re looking at
20:14
determinants for who gets the death
20:15
penalty right so when I was younger than
20:20
I am now because any story I tell has to
20:22
be that way I was living in the DC area
20:25
during the DC sniper guy yeah the guy
20:30
that was driving around him and him in
20:31
the kid and I believe he got the death
20:36
penalty but the kid did not yeah and I’m
20:41
so back then I was not the same person I
20:44
am now
20:44
because if that was the case then that
20:46
would show absolutely no growth and
20:48
nobody wants that but back then I was
20:52
like he deserves the death penalty he a
20:55
hundred percent deserves death penalty
20:56
because during that time because I was
20:59
right like I think I was literally only
21:03
two might like where I lived was only a
21:05
couple miles away from where the
21:06
killings happen and everybody was
21:08
terrified they said that he was driving
21:11
around in the DC area in a white panel
21:14
van which he wasn’t for anybody who
21:17
doesn’t know that case the news put that
21:19
out and that was a lie
21:21
well it was just wrong I don’t know if
21:22
it was a direct lie so one day I was at
21:24
work and a white panel van was parked
21:27
out front
21:28
nobody came into my restaurant that day
21:30
and I was like can you not park here he
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goes man I gotta do my job I was like I
21:35
get it but man no but walk by here right
21:39
now right but back then I was like ya
21:43
know he should get the death penalty by
21:45
the time he actually got to being
21:49
executed
21:50
I had sort of switched but when when it
21:54
was like I don’t even remember that
21:56
guy’s name but when he was when he was
21:59
in the news for
22:00
he’s about to get executed I remembered
22:02
feeling that he should die for
22:04
everything he did and I sort of
22:06
justified my argument that I had back
22:09
then when that was happening and even
22:12
now I’m like that like I I despised that
22:18
person as a person but now I’m like but
22:20
did he deserve to die not by the hands
22:23
of the state Brian Wolfe had a follow-up
22:27
question he asked which is more
22:28
expensive to the taxpayer by far the
22:32
death penalty and this was one thing
22:34
that really got my attention initially
22:35
made me change my stance on it I think
22:37
everybody knows the definitely is
22:39
expensive but when you start digging
22:40
into how much more expensive it is in
22:42
life in prison without parole they
22:44
should be about the same
22:45
you would think you’re comparing it
22:46
because most people die on death row the
22:48
leading cause of death on death row is
22:50
natural causes so typically they are
22:51
serving life in prison without parole
22:53
you would think they would marry each
22:54
other but in reality the death penalty
22:56
is about ten times more expensive than
22:58
life in prison without parole the actual
23:00
data differs state to state you can look
23:02
at the state studies on definitely
23:03
information calm and compare but it’s at
23:06
least two million dollars more per case
23:08
and the reasons are mostly tied up in
23:11
the trial it’s not the appellate process
23:12
it’s not the length of carry out the
23:14
execution like many people think 70% of
23:16
cost the death when you come from the
23:17
trial alone meaning even if the jury
23:20
doesn’t give a death sentence the
23:21
taxpayers are still paying a vast amount
23:23
of money to carry out that trial and the
23:26
reasons for that is that the death
23:27
penalty cases take place over two parts
23:30
you have a guilt innocence phase then
23:31
you have a sentencing phase you
23:33
typically are hiring at least to the
23:34
attorneys that’s not more on each side
23:36
most people do use public defenders
23:38
those are more hours just by length
23:40
alone that you’re having worked by
23:42
judges by court staff by prosecutors by
23:45
DA’s
23:46
it’s a longer jury selection process
23:47
you’re typically doing brain and more
23:50
witnesses but committee to vote no many
23:52
witnesses are usually paid when they’re
23:53
there to testify on behalf of the state
23:55
you’re doing more lab testing also labs
23:58
are usually paid on behalf of the state
24:00
they’re usually paid based off of
24:01
conviction rates right so there’s a lot
24:03
of problems with how they’re paid and
24:05
all of it but all that compound makes it
24:07
vastly more expensive so they pay the
24:09
witnesses to be there this is something
24:11
I learned when I was working at the
24:12
Beacon Center because we
24:13
had a pro bono constitutional litigation
24:15
firm that was attached to be consider
24:17
and we were working our way through a
24:20
case and I first learned that doctors or
24:23
medical experts could be paid I’m
24:25
talking 10 mm of dollars to come in and
24:27
give testimony on behalf of the state
24:29
that’s an that’s that’s great like
24:33
really really screwed up yes yeah I was
24:35
like that’s criminal yeah as you know
24:37
murdering a bunch of people but I mean
24:39
that’s still criminal our system is
24:42
supposed to be set up to where it should
24:44
be what better than a hundred guilty
24:46
people go free than one innocent person
24:47
perish but when you have incentives
24:49
being paid based off conviction rates
24:51
and essentially you have people giving
24:53
testimony labs working on behalf of the
24:55
prosecutor that’s not okay that’s going
24:58
to produce bad results and we’re seeing
24:59
that as we’re getting further and
25:00
further down the line with our wrongful
25:02
conviction rates so earlier you were
25:05
saying that earlier you were saying that
25:09
hang on where my note go crap that
25:14
whether or not you feel the death
25:16
penalty is acceptable is an emotional
25:18
argument um you’re like yeah that’s an
25:21
emotional argument now Bruce fine who is
25:23
general counselor general counsel for
25:25
the center of law and accountability
25:27
says the the government argues that
25:30
saying that the government should never
25:31
take a human life is an article of faith
25:33
I you could approach that statement for
25:39
many different stances I think if you
25:41
were looking at this from a faith
25:43
perspective and to be totally upfront I
25:45
do look at it from that perspective as
25:46
well personally I do think that
25:49
according to my faith I have a problem
25:51
with killing other people whether it’s
25:53
me or the government acting on my behalf
25:55
which in the u.s. we have a
25:57
representative government when they are
25:58
carrying things out that’s essentially
26:00
me carrying it out there acting on my
26:02
behalf and so I think that is unsettling
26:05
but I think for many others including
26:06
those who are not religious there is
26:08
just this overwhelming sense that the
26:10
government is fallible it’s run by
26:13
humans it’s fallible we know that it’s
26:15
prone to error we you know as limited
26:17
government advocates are so because we
26:19
know that it’s never going to be
26:21
efficient or effective or really run in
26:24
a way that could ever even compete with
26:26
private industry
26:27
less a perfect system so I think there
26:30
are a lot of people who who don’t have a
26:31
religious aspect to saying that the
26:33
government shouldn’t kill people it just
26:34
comes from plain common sense and
26:36
recognizing the government can’t carry
26:38
out the mail why should we let them
26:39
carry out things the life and death yeah
26:43
so he actually went on the you said that
26:46
the death penalty honors human dignity
26:48
by allowing the defendant to be treated
26:50
as a moral actor able to control his own
26:52
destiny for good or for ill and I I
26:55
actually took I took issue with that
27:00
statement because he’s already kind of
27:04
the the defendant in this in this
27:07
example he has already carried out his
27:11
life he’s already controlled his destiny
27:13
for lll now is that on the state to
27:18
punish him for that or is that on
27:19
whatever higher being you or him or
27:23
whatever subscribes to because I don’t
27:25
really subscribe to any so as far as
27:31
giving the defendant human dignity I
27:35
felt like this was just what’s the right
27:39
word because my I’m not used to being
27:43
awake as long as I’ve been right now to
27:47
be honest I think that it’s really at
27:50
the very nicest way I can put it it’s
27:53
overtly simplifying the issue because if
27:55
someone controlling their own destiny if
27:57
they have a severe mental illness and
27:59
they are incapacitated and the reality
28:02
is altered is someone controlling their
28:03
own destiny if they have an intellectual
28:05
disability
28:05
if someone controlling their own destiny
28:08
if they have been abused over and over
28:10
and over and violated and then act in a
28:13
cycle of violence now I still think
28:15
people are responsible for their actions
28:17
I believe in holding people accountable
28:18
and I think certainly if someone is
28:20
proven that they’re an ongoing danger to
28:22
society they should be removed from it
28:23
but that being said I think if you again
28:26
start looking at who’s actually getting
28:28
the death penalty it’s really not the
28:31
monster that most people have in their
28:33
mind when they’re picturing this and I
28:34
think that as a society we’ve seen
28:36
conflicting messages when we say killing
28:38
is wrong but it’s okay
28:40
here well what makes it okay here why
28:42
it’s okay here how come we don’t kill
28:44
every murder you know to what end do we
28:46
do we stretch this and I think the more
28:48
consistent thing to say is that human
28:50
life has value at all times and it has
28:52
value and innate rights that I think are
28:55
god-given and that cannot be won or lost
28:57
based on what you do but because of your
29:00
being and if we were directing nines out
29:03
of society and see that as a
29:04
comprehensive value I think that would
29:07
go a long way actually in evolving us to
29:10
a to a more educated point in our
29:14
culture umm yeah so like like you were
29:19
saying like it’s not on the government
29:21
to be the government can’t deliver mail
29:24
correctly like how do we expect them to
29:25
be able to carry these things out and
29:26
then you throw on top that society says
29:29
it’s not okay to kill but it’s okay in
29:31
this case now that is also my stance
29:34
when it comes to you know Wars that I
29:37
don’t think that we should be in which
29:39
is you know all of them that’s how I
29:42
feel about that that’s how I feel about
29:43
political coos and assassinations that
29:45
we put on but everybody says that this
29:47
is fine these things over here are okay
29:49
but what this guy did here bad which I
29:52
agree bad but I don’t really see that
29:55
big of a difference between these two
29:56
columns and I think that is where most
30:00
people have their disconnect then these
30:02
people this guy this person killed one
30:07
or more people and without their without
30:10
being involved in this group here and
30:13
that is where just because he’s not
30:16
involved in that group makes it okay it
30:18
makes it wrong or it makes it okay if
30:20
you’re involved in that group and that
30:22
is where most of the people that I
30:24
disagree with on this subject there are
30:27
a hundred percent with no no those
30:29
people can do it the people who can’t
30:31
run a health care website are totally
30:33
capable of knowing when to kill somebody
30:37
and it’s okay I’m often asked how I feel
30:43
given my background of working on Second
30:45
Amendment issues which I’m probably the
30:47
biggest sex offender that nut you’ll
30:48
ever meet I love the second and I carry
30:50
and I’m always asked how do I
30:52
justify that and I say it’s very simple
30:55
it’s a very black-and-white issue in my
30:56
mind if I am being threatened and I’m
30:58
acting in self-defense I have every
31:00
right to act in self-defense and to
31:02
fully carry that out and same is true
31:04
for war if we were acting in
31:05
self-defense that there’s an existential
31:07
threat then I think we have every right
31:09
to defend ourselves and defend our
31:10
rights within a percentage but what we
31:13
cross the line with is when we start
31:15
saying but what about these exceptions
31:16
to that what about you know these
31:18
proactive things and I think we don’t
31:20
have a consistent value as a society on
31:22
these issues and it shows I think that
31:24
it not only shows the death penalty I
31:26
think when you don’t have a
31:27
comprehensive view on the value of human
31:29
life it shows in many other areas as
31:31
well right now one of the arguments that
31:35
I hear in fate well it’s not really in
31:39
favor of the death toll me but it’s just
31:40
anti abolitionists that a lot of
31:45
abolitionists will claim the
31:47
Constitution for and they’ll say you
31:49
know it’s not constitutional the Eighth
31:51
Amendment I believe right yeah that’s
31:53
what I mean yeah the Eighth Amendment
31:54
says that this is not constitutional for
31:57
cruel and unusual punishment and I’ve
31:58
heard other people say that because of
32:00
the fifth amendment yeah I have it
32:03
pulled up on that one because of the
32:05
fifth amendment it’s okay for us to do
32:08
this have you I have never heard this
32:10
argument once I often hear and obviously
32:13
when you get into the litigation side of
32:15
this issue you see a lot of
32:17
back-and-forth or the constitutionality
32:18
of the death penalty it’s not my
32:22
argument to be totally honest I don’t
32:23
think that we have to get into it
32:25
whether its constitutional not whether
32:27
it’s biblical or not same thing maybe
32:29
maybe maybe the premise is but it
32:31
doesn’t matter because it was certainly
32:33
not supposed to operate like this and so
32:35
that’s really the problem you can be in
32:37
favor the definitely I think it’s okay
32:38
in theory all day long but I don’t
32:41
understand how you can be there
32:42
different practice when you really start
32:43
looking at how it’s actually being
32:45
carried out right so when you say how
32:48
it’s being carried out are you talking
32:50
about the cost of it are you talking
32:52
about the demographics of who is being
32:54
put in the bank this issues are the
32:57
first big issue that’s certainly the
32:59
number one thing that really shipped my
33:02
opinion on it followed by the cost we’ve
33:04
got a system
33:06
overrun with innocents issues I think
33:07
many people still think this is an
33:08
anomaly it’s not we’ve had 165 people
33:11
exonerated from death row that equals
33:13
one person exonerated for free 10
33:15
executions in this country and that’s
33:17
people who were exonerated that’s a
33:19
really big burden to become exonerated
33:21
that is a man count that people who’ve
33:22
been released over potential innocence
33:24
issues such as the Alford pleas or who
33:26
had their cases overturned in other
33:28
manners it also doesn’t count 1,000th of
33:30
people who have been proven wrongfully
33:32
convicted over homicide charges but
33:35
we’re lucky enough to not get the death
33:37
penalty we have too much innocence in
33:40
this system to be carrying this out and
33:42
I think that it’s very reckless that we
33:44
continue to operate when we know that
33:47
secondly the arbitrariness of it
33:49
mentioned the location it goes further
33:52
than that if you further break it down
33:54
on who’s getting the death penalty after
33:55
where the crime is committed the next
33:57
biggest determinate is whether or not
33:58
someone can afford a good attorney if
34:00
you can you’re probably not gonna get
34:02
the death penalty if you can’t good luck
34:04
you can see one in four people on Texas
34:07
death row that had a public defender
34:08
that this later just farted or
34:09
disciplined you see 73 percent of people
34:12
in North Carolina’s death row that were
34:14
sentenced before there was an indigent
34:15
defense fund and so we have a system
34:17
that really is bias in a socio-economic
34:20
manner that I think is unjust and that
34:22
that would be unconstitutional and then
34:24
thirdly if you start looking at the race
34:26
of the victim that becomes a big factor
34:28
in who gets death penalty or not in
34:30
California you’re three times more
34:31
likely to get it if you kill a white
34:32
person if you kill a black person or a
34:34
Hispanic person in Louisiana you’re
34:36
ninety six percent times more likely to
34:38
get it if you kill a white person’s and
34:39
if you kill minority I think that what
34:41
that says is we are valuing victims
34:43
differently and we’re placing a higher
34:45
price on some people’s lives and others
34:47
and I don’t know how anyone can justify
34:50
that right and so while I was doing my
34:53
research on this one of the arguments I
34:55
saw it was about was about race and the
34:58
guy said that since 1974 I believe the
35:04
stats on how many people that were
35:07
executed that were white that were black
35:08
that were Hispanic that were other they
35:12
sort of matched like the the black was
35:14
definitely higher than how many than the
35:16
percentage of blacks that lived in the
35:17
community but at no point did
35:19
he ever go into at no point did he ever
35:23
go into the percentage of people that
35:26
were convicted of or that were that
35:29
received the death penalty for killing a
35:32
white person versus a black person
35:33
versus some other minority and that
35:35
that’s actually really interesting to me
35:37
because that was left out of that just
35:40
completely but ya know that that that
35:46
stat blew my mind when you said that I
35:48
was just kind of like oh that makes so
35:50
much sense but ninety-six percent in
35:52
Louisiana which I mean granted the only
35:54
parts of Louisiana I’ve ever really been
35:56
to are heavily minority populated but
36:00
like that that blew my mind 96 percent
36:04
more likely and we see this in the news
36:07
I think there’s something that is a bit
36:09
unsurprising to me at least when I
36:11
started digging into that data when I
36:13
was in college I remember saying if I
36:15
were to disappear you’ve seen my face
36:16
all over the media because I’m a young
36:18
white girl right I mean but when’s last
36:21
time you saw that happen or a young
36:23
black girl who disappears you know we
36:25
just we don’t give the same attention to
36:27
crime victims in this country and to
36:29
break it down even pass race when you
36:31
start unit socioeconomic status you know
36:32
you kill a police officer you’re almost
36:34
certainly indefinitely but you kill a
36:35
prostitute I doubt you’re gonna get the
36:39
death penalty and so we’ve got you know
36:41
wrestle with those questions as a
36:42
society like why do we value victims
36:44
lives differently and I think that comes
36:46
down to the fact that we don’t actually
36:48
see all human attack having innate equal
36:51
value at the end of the day right so
36:53
earlier I believe that was this year is
36:57
either this year last year Trump was on
36:59
Fox & Friends
37:01
I’m going with all of this Trump is on
37:04
Fox and Friends and the guy had murdered
37:06
the two cops the illegal had I believe
37:10
he’s an illegal he murdered the two cops
37:12
and he and Trump was on there talking
37:13
about the death penalty music is it
37:15
right is it wrong I don’t know but we
37:17
know that he will not be killing any
37:19
more cops after this or something along
37:21
those lines so when you have the
37:23
president who has just this fan base of
37:27
a president I have never liked it’s
37:29
either you love him or you hate him and
37:31
then there’s like
37:33
eight of us in the middle they’re like
37:35
yeah he’s just as bad as any of the
37:38
others I guess
37:41
but like the fanbase that loves him are
37:44
so rabid that all of a sudden any any
37:46
one of them at that moment that was kind
37:48
of teetering on the death tone he’s
37:49
going to be Oh Trump’s in favor of the
37:51
death penalty especially if a cop gets
37:52
killed which I’m not going to get into
37:55
that but especially if a cop gets killed
37:57
but so now I’m okay with the death
38:00
penalty and and if anybody murders
38:02
somebody they better be holding a badge
38:05
or in fatigues I mean I obviously
38:10
Trump’s statement for death penalty has
38:13
been not what I would wish to hear from
38:15
our president but that being said it
38:18
hasn’t hurt the movement and in fact I
38:20
don’t know where this year’s been
38:22
incredible with definitely overkill we
38:24
actually have 11 states I think there’s
38:26
one more coming down the pipeline that
38:27
I’ve had Republican sponsored bills to
38:29
repeal the death penalty that’s man I
38:30
actually see this as an issue where the
38:33
battleground is at the state level I
38:34
think that’s where it should be handled
38:35
as a limited government person I think
38:37
it is up to the states and I want to see
38:39
them repeal it and we’re down to only 30
38:42
states that still have it on their books
38:43
of those that have it 11 of them so over
38:46
third haven’t used it and at least a
38:48
decade or more and so you’re seeing a
38:51
real down tick in the death penalty with
38:54
or without Trump statements and I think
38:56
that you’re seeing a real Insurgentes of
38:57
Republicans actually coming forward and
38:59
leaving on this issue at the state level
39:01
which is pretty incredible to watch and
39:03
so you know I wish she felt differently
39:07
I wish that we could see I’ll have a
39:08
conversation about it but even if not I
39:10
don’t think it’s hurting the what’s
39:11
happening Roo at the ground so Tennessee
39:14
does Tennessee still have it or no and
39:16
if he still has it and up until last
39:18
year they were counted they wrote the
39:19
12th state that hadn’t used it in a
39:21
decade or more they began using it again
39:24
last year was a bit surprising actually
39:27
they were the state that executed the
39:28
most people right behind Texas so last
39:30
year was the fourth year in a row the
39:31
country executed fewer than 30 people
39:34
there were only 25 executions they
39:36
occurred in only eight states and over
39:38
half of the more in Texas and then
39:40
Tennessee had the next most amount which
39:42
was just unusual for Tennessee it’s not
39:45
a state that’s been active they’d only
39:47
executed oh I want to say six people
39:50
since reinstatement up until that point
39:52
and they’ve had three people exonerated
39:54
from their death throes so yeah I don’t
39:58
know what to think about it to be honest
39:59
it’s been a little out of character bro
40:02
Tennessee I mean there’s been a bunch of
40:03
stuff happening in Tennessee that I’ve
40:05
been like that makes rough week in
40:08
Tennessee yeah like that’s that’s not
40:11
the Tennessee I remember right there
40:17
spike Cohen what about my co-host spike
40:20
Cohen if you don’t watch this show
40:22
regularly says what about Dylan roof
40:31
tuck ace it’s a it’s a case I still get
40:34
emotional about and I think a lot of
40:37
people in South Carolina feel very
40:39
personally attached that the one thing
40:41
that always stands out in my mind about
40:43
the Dylan roof case though was the
40:44
families the very first hearing they had
40:47
who multiple different family members
40:51
came forward and said we forgive you we
40:54
don’t want the death penalty this is not
40:56
something that we want on our hands this
40:57
isn’t going to help us we want to
40:59
forgive and move forward and I think the
41:02
reason I get so emotional because as a
41:04
Christian that is what I think my faith
41:07
is supposed to be able to do and which
41:08
is really superseding human ability and
41:12
human understanding and able to get this
41:14
place where you can forgive someone
41:15
who’s done something so horrible and I
41:17
just thought the those families
41:18
testimonies were something I’ll never
41:20
forget and it doesn’t see my favorite
41:22
listen to you in that case yet that that
41:24
was actually one of the most beautiful
41:26
out of that scenario like not much
41:29
beauty could come of it but with that
41:32
scenario happening that was actually a
41:34
really beautiful moment where all the
41:35
families came in and said that they
41:36
forgave him and that they didn’t want
41:38
the death penalty
41:39
well you I don’t get real emotional
41:42
unless it’s a like old episodes of
41:45
scrubs and I don’t even understand that
41:47
but I’ll just watch an episode of scrubs
41:50
and be like yeah JD but on track I cry
41:56
every time I listen to my mom is like
41:57
why are you crying
42:00
I don’t know mom it doesn’t matter but
42:07
yeah with a within that moment like I
42:10
was watching that and I was just like Oh
42:12
humanity you’re not awful you’re not
42:16
terrible
42:17
you’re you’ve learned forgiveness
42:19
somehow and that just blew my mind
42:24
so which states still have the death
42:29
penalty because you said that only
42:33
thirty of them still have a decade and
42:39
last year only eight of them that’s
42:40
right that’s what I meant
42:43
obviously very concentrated in the south
42:46
I believe it’s Texas Florida Tennessee
42:52
you’re really testing my knowledge right
42:54
now
42:54
maybe parkansas all concentrated in
43:04
there right in the South Region so yeah
43:07
I thought I remembered that Florida had
43:09
executed somebody for the first time in
43:11
a really long time last year has the
43:17
second most executions behind Texas
43:20
soyou’ve Texas was in Florida and then I
43:22
think Georgia the period often it
43:26
probably was Tennessee that you’re
43:28
thinking of because Tennessee had been a
43:29
really long time okay possibly possibly
43:32
yeah then I’d look at Tennessee as a
43:33
home state too so I am but I so had a
43:40
question about floor crap I need to stop
43:42
waking up early to on show days my brain
43:48
is like you worked all morning what are
43:50
you doing you’re supposed to be like
43:52
asleep and I’m like no I’m not it’s nine
43:55
o’clock so like I know that Florida has
44:00
definitely executed a ton of people in
44:02
the past and I grew so I grew up in
44:06
Virginia and I believed that when I was
44:08
growing up it was legal there but now it
44:10
is not and they still have it
44:14
I still have it I don’t think they’d
44:15
used it recently but they still have it
44:19
gotcha I think the last person that they
44:21
probably executed was the older of the
44:24
DC snipers right and I remember before
44:28
that had been forever but anytime that I
44:32
read about somebody who is going into
44:35
the death penalty
44:37
like who’s about to be executed you get
44:40
the last-minute pushes from
44:41
organizations like conservatives
44:43
concerned about the death penalty who
44:44
are trying to stop this from happening
44:48
what is the a success rate on this on
44:51
these hopes yeah it’s not high I don’t I
44:57
don’t know the exact percentage
44:58
it’s definitely once you get down to the
45:01
mean of the wire it’s a Hail Mary and
45:03
typically is up to the governor whether
45:06
or not he’s going to act we did say Ohio
45:09
cool in execution last year or a guy who
45:12
multiple jury members came out and said
45:14
have we had other options we’ve given
45:16
him the death penalty and we have seen
45:19
the governor’s a creasing Republican
45:20
governors act but it’s it’s not typical
45:23
it’s it’s a it’s a heavy thing we are
45:26
seeing a lot of Republican governors
45:27
really start to kind of put efecto
45:29
moratoriums in place like we saw the new
45:31
Ohio governor do where he basically is
45:34
saying look I’m not going to hear
45:36
executions under my watch until I have
45:38
more information I’m gonna be looking
45:39
into this which i think is wise but I
45:42
think at the end of the day it’s just
45:44
very difficult once you get down to this
45:46
process to put it on one person and have
45:48
that be the decision I think that’s why
45:49
you saw California’s governor recently
45:51
put an effective moratorium in for
45:53
people who are really struggling and
45:55
grappling with it and who you know I
45:57
think some have their minds made up
45:58
weren’t governor Newsom I think others
45:59
like governor DeWine are really
46:01
struggling with it and one at any time
46:03
that you thought the one thing through
46:04
that which I apply and it’s a
46:06
complicated issue you know I didn’t
46:08
change my mind
46:08
on it overnight I certainly took a lot
46:11
of time to research and look in multiple
46:13
difference that needs to get to that
46:15
point inside I think we should encourage
46:17
all governor’s to do that and to really
46:18
look through it and develop a
46:20
comprehensive stance because when you’re
46:21
going case-by-case it becomes very
46:23
difficult I think to decide right so I
46:27
remember
46:27
there was there was a case here in
46:29
Florida and Pam Pam Bondi was the
46:32
Attorney General down here who I dislike
46:36
that woman just in general and what she
46:40
did here was in my mind even kind of
46:43
worse than how much I normally dislike
46:46
her she somebody was scheduled for an
46:50
execution
46:50
she stayed the execution which okay I
46:54
was like all right that’s cool but she
46:56
only stayed the execution because she
46:58
had a scheduling conflict in which she
47:02
had a fundraising dinner for her
47:04
re-election campaign on the same night
47:06
so she stayed the execution just so she
47:08
could go raise money and then ended up
47:10
doing it later Oh like on that one I was
47:14
like well yeah you stayed the execution
47:15
but literally for the most selfish
47:18
reason you possibly could have yeah no
47:25
that’s that is definitely that is
47:27
definitely something and she I mean she
47:30
just isn’t a knight like she wants to
47:32
make a weed illegal everywhere all over
47:35
again she she does not care about civil
47:38
liberties at all and she is very proud
47:41
to fnally except on days that she has
47:43
fundraisers and she’s only like four
47:45
feet 11 she’s tiny she’s she’s tiny and
47:52
not she wasn’t nice to me either which
47:54
makes it even worse she was the only one
47:57
that was mean to me when I met everybody
48:00
and I’m like man you’re a midget so what
48:06
so what are you guys working on now what
48:08
do you guys have in the pipeline as far
48:11
as conservatives concerned about the
48:12
death penalty do you have anything
48:13
coming up any big projects that you’re
48:15
working on or well you know we’re a
48:17
non-profit so we’re always working on
48:19
advocacy and education we do that all
48:21
over the country whether it be from
48:22
speaking events or different conferences
48:24
that we’re at we have chapters that
48:27
we’re launching so we have just launched
48:29
a chapter in Louisiana getting ready to
48:31
launch chapters in Texas and Virginia
48:32
this year as well and so that’s really
48:35
exciting we’re looking for people on the
48:37
ground to be kind of our you know
48:39
grassroot soldiers when we
48:41
issues and people can lend their voice
48:43
to raise awareness about why these
48:45
values don’t align with people who have
48:47
conservative and libertarian values yes
48:49
and that’s really exciting we’re of
48:51
course continuing to follow all the
48:52
bills a lot of the sessions are winding
48:53
yeah at this point but there are still
48:56
either ongoing so we’ll be continuing to
48:58
follow those bills and then getting
49:00
ready for an extra session as well I
49:01
think you’re gonna see we’ve got New
49:03
Hampshire that’s looking like they’ll
49:05
have a veto override at the end of the
49:06
month which is really exciting and then
49:09
I think Wyoming will be coming back
49:10
strong next year they really came out
49:12
the gate with an amazing showing the
49:14
only four votes shy of passing a bill to
49:17
repeal the death penalty so I certainly
49:18
think we’ll be hearing from them next
49:20
year
49:20
Utah’s looking really promising for next
49:22
year Colorado has been making a lot of
49:25
gains so always stuff going on never
49:28
slows down yeah I figured that that is
49:31
one of the that’s one of the fields that
49:34
if you’re gonna work in advocacy for you
49:37
are constantly gonna have stuff going on
49:39
because it’s gonna be a long time before
49:42
we get to a point where there is no more
49:45
death penalty in the US yeah we saw a
49:48
lot of work to do uh it feels like
49:52
there’s just so much movement that
49:53
sometimes I do worry like am I gonna
49:55
have a job yeah but that’s a good worry
49:58
to have you know I think we’re always
49:59
trying to work ourselves out of a job in
50:00
this kind of industry in you know each
50:03
each year if we can just knock two or
50:05
three states out and he’s going we’ll be
50:07
in business so I think that we’re
50:09
showing great progress I think that you
50:11
look at the amount of Republican
50:13
lawmakers that have been sponsoring
50:14
bills and the increase since 2000 and
50:16
that it’s drastic I mean at least 10
50:19
times as now as many are doing that so
50:21
if that keeps up and we see these people
50:24
really start championing this and moving
50:25
forward you can see big things happen
50:27
even in red states which is it’s really
50:29
cool to see now that and that is amazing
50:32
that is definitely amazing to see so at
50:35
the beginning I kind of plugged that you
50:37
have in column for news max called life
50:41
and liberty basically that’s just you
50:44
that’s when when my viewers and
50:46
listeners go to that it’s gonna be you
50:49
ranting about the death penalty isn’t it
50:50
it’s be ranting just me like completely
50:53
like pissed off and ranting
50:55
know it it is very focused on the death
50:58
penalty and sometimes other criminal
51:00
justice reform as well that really
51:01
trying to shed a light on what’s
51:02
happening and you know it makes me mad I
51:05
always say that’s one of the hardest
51:06
parts of my job is actually writing that
51:07
column because as you’re researching you
51:09
just get even madder and madder when
51:10
you’re looking at everything happening
51:11
so it’s got a bit of Gaston to it I
51:16
remember so I remember when you and I
51:18
first met at yeah Lacan you actually I
51:22
don’t think that you’re talking about
51:24
the column but I I remember talking to
51:28
you and I was like yeah I used to be I
51:29
used to be a pro death penalty and now
51:32
I’m kind of on the fence but leaning
51:34
more toward anti-death-penalty
51:36
and you kind of gave me the same you
51:38
know it’s a my it’s a million thousand
51:40
miles long but only a mile deep and the
51:42
longer you’ve whatever you said earlier
51:44
and the longer that you said there is
51:45
like you realize that it’s just really
51:46
shallow arguments and they’re pointless
51:48
and then everything starts making you
51:49
mad mad and bad and so I kind of like
51:52
start looking into stuff and I was like
51:53
yeah she was right this is this is a
51:57
really stupid that we do this like it
52:00
the cost alone the crane the cost alone
52:05
which Brian Wolfe
52:06
who asked which is more expensive to the
52:08
taxpayer after you after you went
52:11
through your stats on what it cost for a
52:13
death penalty trial versus a life in
52:16
life in prison trial he said wow I’ve
52:19
officially changed my mind solely based
52:21
on cost and I think he may have signed
52:24
off or at least recognized that you know
52:28
the problems with government I think the
52:30
costs are getting under your skin it’s
52:32
infuriating and not only you know not
52:34
only is it expensive but what are we not
52:36
spending that on and when you’re looking
52:37
at a justice system what we’re not
52:39
sitting on is solving more crimes and
52:41
we’re not staying on as firms that
52:42
actually work to deter crime and make us
52:44
safer so it’s not only money down the
52:46
drain but there’s a lot of opportunity
52:48
cost associated with that to your right
52:50
so do you have anything else that you
52:53
want to push and or anything or plug or
52:56
conservatives concerned at work if
52:58
people want to get involved that’s our
52:59
website they can check us out find out
53:01
what our chapters are figure out ways to
53:02
get involved she was message
53:04
we’re on social media at our acronym
53:06
see see a TDP and conservatives concern
53:09
on Facebook so hook up with us follow us
53:12
always lots of information and news
53:14
coming out so you won’t be bored well
53:16
thank you so much for coming on if you
53:20
want to give me a minute to do the
53:21
closeout in the closing song if you want
53:23
to hang out for a second afterwards so I
53:24
can kind of talk to you a little bit
53:25
more I would greatly appreciate it
53:27
it’s up to you though you can just sign
53:29
off and I couldn’t stop you again thank
53:34
you so much for coming on Spike Cohen
53:36
says that he hates that I didn’t know
53:37
his sarcasm and his what about Dylan
53:39
roof comment because he did use it and I
53:42
knew that but he also called me Jason on
53:45
his show last night and I hated that so
53:47
I figured that wasn’t going to say
53:48
anything to everybody else thank you
53:53
guys for tuning in remember that
53:55
tomorrow we have an all-new episode of
53:58
mr. America the beard of truth with
54:00
Jason lines then we’re taking two days
54:01
off before we come back for next week
54:05
with a brand new episode of mr. America
54:07
the bearded truth then next Tuesday you
54:09
have spike and me right here at muddied
54:11
waters of freedom and then next
54:13
Wednesday you get spike Cohen all by his
54:15
lonesome probably with the guest for my
54:19
fellow Americans and then next Thursday
54:21
we are right back here for the writer’s
54:23
block with I forgot to set up the music
54:26
with a brand new guest that I’ve ever
54:29
had on before and I’m really glad that
54:31
he and Spike have ironed out their
54:34
rivalry so that way I don’t have to feel
54:36
bad about having him up again thank you
54:40
all so much
54:40
tune in to all of the shows please like
54:43
please share please like please share
54:46
and be sure to rate us on iTunes and
54:48
Spotify and whatever your podcasting
54:51
happens again thank you all so much and
54:54
have a great weekend
55:09
[Music]