(((My Fellow Americans))) #52: MASTERS OF DEBATE (LNC Chair Edition)

When you play the Game Of Chairs, you either win... ...or you run again in 2 years. We watched an epic battle of wits in our newest installment of Masters Of Debate! HAGOPIAN. SHIPLEY​. SMITH​. Who will emerge the victor? Only you can decide!


About This Episode

When you play the Game Of Chairs, you either win…

…or you run again in 2 years.

We watched an epic battle of wits in our newest installment of Masters Of Debate!

HAGOPIAN.

SHIPLEY.

SMITH​.

Who will emerge the victor? Only you can decide!

2020 Libertarian Dad Bod Calendar

Libertarian Party Waffle House Caucus

Intro & Outro Music by JoDavi.


Episode Transcript

DISCLOSURE
This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.
FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT
02:10
[Applause]
02:11
[Music]
02:14
and now live from beautiful movie South
02:18
Carolina you’re watching my fellow
02:22
Americans with your host spy yes yes
02:29
it’s me
02:31
[Applause]
02:36
thank you so much for tuning in keep
02:39
clapping clap for the miracle how would
02:43
we know you wanted the miracle if you
02:45
didn’t keep clapping welcome to my
02:47
fellow Americans I am literally spike
02:49
Cohen and I am so happy to have you on
02:51
for this very special masters of debate
02:54
LNC chair addition of my fellow
02:56
Americans in a few moments we’ll have
02:58
three men come on who will come on to
03:00
fight to climb over the charred bodies
03:03
of the people who dared stand against
03:05
them and sit atop the throne that is the
03:07
libertarian National Committee
03:09
chairmanship this is a Muddy Waters
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04:01
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04:55
music to this and every episode of my
04:58
fellow Americans comes from the amazing
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05:01
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05:23
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05:26
purified shout out to Teheran Turks is
05:29
mononym as always guys as I said earlier
05:31
tonight is a special night because
05:33
tonight the three declared candidates
05:35
for the position of chair of the
05:36
Libertarian Party are coming here to
05:39
duke it out in a battle of wits who will
05:42
be crowned the master debater tonight
05:44
well that’s up to you at the end of the
05:45
bait be sure to comment with the name of
05:47
who you thought 1 and we will tally that
05:49
and release the results for tomorrow
05:51
tonight so we can say for certain who
05:53
was the master of this debate so then
05:56
let’s get started right now our first
06:02
that’s not him our first debater tonight
06:05
is a successful businessman with a dual
06:07
mba in marketing and finance he has
06:10
spent the past decade working for a
06:11
fortune 500 companies as a fixer and he
06:14
is currently the president of a
06:15
manufacturing company in Oklahoma
06:17
he is mr. Todd Hagopian our second to
06:20
Bader is currently the vice chair of the
06:23
Arizona Libertarian Party a vice chair
06:26
of the Arizona Libertarian Party and has
06:27
been serving in the Arizona Libertarian
06:29
Party an officer role since 2016 he also
06:32
served as chair of outright libertarians
06:34
for four years tripling membership and
06:36
quadrupling fundraising while working to
06:39
founder co-founder or more of the lp’s
06:41
most active and successful caucuses he
06:44
is mr. Mike Shipley and finally our
06:46
third debater is an at-large
06:48
representative of the libertarian
06:50
National Committee an at-large rep the
06:52
Libertarian Party of California
06:53
treasurer of the Libertarian Party of
06:56
Contra Costa County hopes of it right
06:59
and one of the founders of think Liberty
07:02
he ran for chair in 2018 now he’s
07:04
running again and this time it’s
07:06
personal
07:07
he is mr. Joshua Smith gentlemen thank
07:11
you for joining us tonight thank you for
07:15
having us Mike okay great so before we
07:18
get started let me explain the format
07:20
for you and our viewers at home this is
07:21
the format rules of the Masters of
07:23
debate series first each of you will be
07:27
given two minutes to give an opening
07:28
statement and then after that I will ask
07:30
you five of my special moderator
07:33
questions questions from me the
07:34
moderator you will each be given two
07:36
minutes the answer if you mention one of
07:38
the other debaters they will have one
07:39
minute to respond to what you said after
07:42
that each of you will be given a chance
07:44
to ask the other two debaters a question
07:46
and they will have two minutes each to
07:48
answer and then I will after that I will
07:52
present some questions that we have from
07:54
followers and commenters and the way
07:56
we’ll be doing that is you will have up
07:57
to three minutes to debate each question
07:59
out in kind of a discussion style format
08:01
I as moderator will make sure that
08:03
everyone gets at least some time to talk
08:05
and then finally each of you will be
08:08
given two minutes to give your closing
08:09
remarks and then our lovely beautiful
08:12
brilliant and just amazingly talented
08:14
viewing audience will comment with who
08:16
they thought has won the title of master
08:19
debater I will of course be keeping time
08:20
by using this muddied waters media brand
08:23
egg timer which you lovely folks at home
08:26
can have for your kitchen or podcast for
08:28
the low low price of $49.99 just send
08:30
your payment via PayPal to Muddy Waters
08:32
media gmail.com and give us your address
08:34
and we will literally mail you an egg
08:36
timer with a sticker on it you want it
08:39
gentlemen this is a libertarian debate
08:41
and as such we will not tolerate any
08:43
violations of the non-aggression
08:44
principle any such violations will be
08:46
met with whatever level of defensive
08:48
violence is necessary up to and
08:50
including nuclear weapons if you choose
08:52
to strip naked during this debate I will
08:54
not be sharing any of the ad revenue
08:56
with you now so if we’re agreed to those
09:02
terms we can get started and we will
09:04
start with the opening statement we will
09:06
start with whomever is able to answer an
09:08
obscure trivia question that I randomly
09:12
selected from the internet the first one
09:14
to answer it correctly goes
09:15
first followed by the person whose last
09:18
name is next in the alphabet and we will
09:20
go on in that order moving forward from
09:22
then on to be fair so here is the
09:24
question
09:25
do not answer it yet what was the
09:29
original purpose of Mountain Dew the
09:32
original purpose of Mountain Dew good
09:35
luck
09:37
Lena Fox is the oxidization you got the
09:46
most caffeine of any soda no we’re not
09:53
okay alright okay so I anticipated this
09:59
believe it or not so I have the next
10:02
question hopefully we got to do a little
10:05
bit better with this one when what year
10:08
did the great molasses flood happen year
10:12
of the great molasses flood again good
10:15
luck you could literally just say a
10:20
number the 1859
10:23
okay that’s your answer Todd what’s your
10:25
answer 1911 Mike what is your answer
10:31
1912 okay Mike is one because it was
10:36
1919 great prices right strategy it is I
10:44
said but then I so and I’m not sure of
10:47
prices right works because then I think
10:49
Josh because he went over or something
10:51
anyway Mike got closest that’s how we’re
10:53
doing it I decided that executive
10:55
decision so so we will start with Mike
10:57
with the statements Mike please start
11:02
now all right well first of all I want
11:06
to thank spike for putting this together
11:07
and thank my colleagues for being here
11:10
to debate as you mentioned in my
11:13
introduction I’ve been active since 2007
11:16
I am a lifetime member of this party and
11:18
I’m running because I really believe
11:20
that I’m truly the best candidate to
11:22
take advantage of this political moment
11:23
for the party so what we’re seeing in
11:26
mainstream politics is this leftward
11:28
shift
11:29
and I don’t know about you but I don’t
11:30
want to live in a command-and-control
11:32
hole tax-and-spend economy if the
11:36
narratives that people are hearing are
11:38
limited to democratic socialism and and
11:40
things further left that’s really
11:42
problematic and if we know that there
11:45
are libertarian era tips that can
11:46
resonate with voters who are looking for
11:48
something like that we don’t even have
11:51
to change who we are to meet that need I
11:54
think that we should do that so who
11:57
better than someone who has done a lot
12:00
of work in that area already what I work
12:01
in there so I’m running because I’d like
12:03
to can expand on body 1 expand your vote
12:07
in the coming winter vote in the coming
12:08
months ok thank you and so the next in
12:13
order would be Joshua and we are having
12:18
some problems with the muddy waters
12:20
media brand egg-timer
12:21
so what we’re gonna do is I’m just gonna
12:23
keep track of time do you have do you
12:26
have do you have a phone I do okay so
12:39
Joshua
12:40
whenever you’re ready go ahead awesome
12:42
and I’ll echo that said of it thank you
12:45
so much spike and muddy waters of
12:47
freedom for having us thanks to my
12:49
competitors I’m extremely happy to see a
12:51
robust field of people that are
12:53
interested in helping to lead the party
12:54
and all of us I believe have our own
12:56
unique merits for me I believe that
12:58
aside from being involved in something
13:00
like 11 committees including local state
13:02
national I think that I’ve proven myself
13:04
to be an inspirational grassroots figure
13:07
on the current leading recruiter on the
13:09
libertarian National Committee I’ve
13:11
continued to travel around the country
13:12
working with candidates and affiliates
13:14
to help improve this party every level
13:16
including recruiting hundreds of new
13:18
activists to state or national or both I
13:22
never get tired here state leaders tell
13:24
me that they have new members who
13:26
mentioned to me as an inspiration I
13:27
think that’s really really good while
13:29
running for chair in 2018 I made sure
13:32
that I put a huge emphasis on membership
13:34
and fundraising I think those are two of
13:36
the most important things that this
13:37
party can focus on and those are the
13:40
things that continue the ballot access
13:42
fight
13:42
around the country they get ourselves
13:44
new volunteers and quite frankly it’s
13:46
how we keep the the heater blowing and
13:48
the a/c going at the national
13:50
headquarters if you’re familiar with
13:51
what’s going on there right now
13:52
I was told last year that I seemed like
13:55
a good candidate but I didn’t have the
13:57
experience people were looking for and
13:58
at that time I had only been a regional
14:00
rep for the Libertarian Party of
14:01
Washington after losing the chair
14:05
election and becoming at-large last year
14:07
I got involved with everything I was
14:08
physically able to including chairing an
14:11
extremely active group on the affiliate
14:13
support committee I put in the work that
14:15
I promised last year and I believe that
14:17
you know the results are starting to
14:19
show that so if you can just wrap this
14:21
bellari huh oh yeah yeah it’s okay just
14:23
yeah you know what I got out I put in
14:26
the work that I said I was gonna put in
14:27
last year whilst while spending time on
14:29
the board and and that’s why I think
14:31
that I’m the best person to chair this
14:33
party going forward okay and then
14:36
finally Todd it is your turn to give
14:39
your opening statement fantastic
14:43
well I’m Todd young some of you may know
14:46
me as the libertarian and chief on
14:47
Twitter I’m really excited to be here
14:50
today with some great candidates I think
14:52
we all bring very unique resumes to the
14:55
table and and it’s going to be a fun
14:57
debate so my resume is basically
15:00
business I have spent the last 10 years
15:01
turned around companies I look at
15:03
companies that are that are struggling
15:06
and I try to come up with a strategy
15:09
figure out what’s wrong and sell that
15:12
strategy to members employee assembly
15:14
her ship and then fix the company I what
15:17
I saw in the Libertarian Party in 2016
15:19
is a huge enormous opportunity to make
15:22
games and we didn’t we we got a lot of
15:24
votes we raised a lot of money but over
15:27
the next two years we had a lot of
15:28
trouble and and essentially fell apart
15:31
from a membership standpoint from a
15:32
financial standpoint and that one area
15:35
saying do I have the skill set necessary
15:38
to come in and help this party turn
15:40
around so my planks are professionalized
15:44
the party to create a core brand message
15:45
and win local elections and I believe I
15:48
have a plan to do that and I’m going to
15:50
use my business turnaround experience to
15:54
really dive into the PNL and try to
15:56
figure out
15:56
we can advance this party forward over
15:58
the next few years and then hand it off
16:00
to somebody who has the activism
16:02
experience to take us to the next level
16:04
but the turnaround experience requires a
16:06
very specific skill set and that’s what
16:08
I’ll be trying to convey today okay very
16:11
good
16:12
gentlemen thank you that was the opening
16:14
statement and now we will begin with the
16:17
moderator questions I spike Cohen and
16:21
the moderator and these are my questions
16:24
we will start with Joshua and then go
16:27
from Joshua to Todd to Mike so here is
16:32
the first question Josh we all know the
16:35
old adage organizing libertarians is a
16:38
bit like herding cats there are some
16:41
major rifts in the party between
16:43
anarchists and men are kissing
16:46
constitutionalists between radicals and
16:50
pragmatists between capitalists and
16:51
socialists between Waffle House and
16:53
Denny’s Waffle House is correct Waffle
16:56
House is correct Denny’s is wrong we’ll
16:59
get into that later as chair how would
17:01
you work to unify the Libertarian Party
17:03
as much as humanly possible sure thank
17:08
you very much I believe that unity is
17:10
created by a party working together I
17:12
firmly believed a lot of our current
17:14
divisive nough started from the top down
17:16
and setting an example at the highest
17:18
echelon of leadership can fix a lot of
17:19
those problems I’ve also been guilty in
17:23
the past of being divisive and taking
17:25
arguments a bit too far but I learned
17:27
and I had to humble myself and take big
17:30
doses of my own medicine to realize that
17:32
the people who share my causes are not
17:34
my enemy and that working together
17:35
creates way more success than turning
17:38
our swords inwards so I believe focused
17:41
messaging will help heal some of those
17:42
divides freedom is a really messy thing
17:45
and there’s issues that we just aren’t
17:46
all going to get together and sing
17:48
Kumbaya on but using that the messages
17:52
that we do agree on and crafting that
17:54
message outward is going to bring a lot
17:56
more people together and bring more out
17:58
outsiders to our cause I believe you
18:01
know with every ounce of my being that
18:02
we can come together and work on a lot
18:04
of issues without this constant fight
18:07
and so you know if we can hook somebody
18:10
with the message of anti war and then
18:12
the party activists can segue that into
18:15
a discussion on free market healthcare I
18:17
think that messaging is useful but it’s
18:19
also unifying and educating without
18:21
eating our own so I like that I want to
18:23
see more of that and I believe that that
18:25
example can be set at the very top and
18:27
and trickle down and I’ll yield the rest
18:29
of my time okay Todd thoughts on
18:32
unifying a party that seems just really
18:36
just doesn’t like you to find absolutely
18:41
that we are not in this in the
18:46
standpoint if you look at the Democrats
18:48
they have the socialist Democrats they
18:49
have the conservative Democrats they
18:51
even have for the first time in a long
18:53
time an anti-war Democrat so they’re
18:55
there every party has these different
18:57
sectors in it what makes us unique is we
19:00
try to define ourselves as anarchists or
19:02
men artists or Republican lights or glue
19:05
dog or all this stuff what we need to do
19:08
to Josh’s point is get a very targeted
19:10
messaging everybody belongs but let’s
19:13
figure out what we can all agree on
19:15
something along the lines of you know we
19:18
all want dramatic military reform less
19:21
war or no more we all want traumatic
19:24
criminal justice reform no crimes
19:26
without victims we all want dramatic
19:29
fiscal reform you know less taxes less
19:32
spending let’s figure out that brand
19:34
that we can all agree on and rally
19:36
around that that way we can have these
19:39
primaries where we debate the issues but
19:41
in the end we come back together around
19:44
a brand everybody can tell you what a
19:46
Republican is therefore lower taxes
19:48
which puts more money in your pocket and
19:50
raises the economy and it’s good for
19:52
everybody
19:53
Democrats are for minority rights and
19:55
women’s rights and and everybody pays
19:57
their fair share is that really what
19:59
happens no but everybody knows the brand
20:02
and at the end of the day they rally
20:03
around that brand that put aside their
20:05
differences in the end and that’s all we
20:07
need to do okay and then Mike thoughts
20:11
on unifying the party
20:13
two words spike bottom unity so if you
20:18
haven’t heard of this I don’t know how
20:20
you couldn’t have heard of it but it’s
20:22
basically the idea that everybody in
20:24
bottom half of the political compass has
20:26
a libertarian narrative to offer and
20:29
belongs under the libertarian big tent
20:31
so as a matter of fact the two-year
20:34
anniversary of bog immunity is just
20:35
coming up next week and if you think
20:38
about how far we’ve come in just two
20:39
years it really has been amazing well
20:41
all we really need to do is build on and
20:44
expand on that and just really explore
20:46
the full scope of our platform and I
20:49
it’s really impossible to understate the
20:52
power of this message two years ago and
20:56
caps and Lib socks used to hate each
20:57
other the radicals and the Prag to stay
21:00
at each other I’m not saying there’s not
21:02
still tension but a lot more often what
21:05
we find is that people actually pop up
21:07
in comment threads to defend one another
21:09
to defend one another’s right to speak a
21:11
narrative that sounds different that
21:13
their own so and this kind of reflects
21:16
something that I’ve been saying for a
21:17
long time you know unity is not
21:20
uniformity right so like we don’t all
21:23
have to think or say the same thing
21:25
we’re united by a single principle the
21:27
non-aggression principle and beyond that
21:30
the intellectual diversity that we
21:32
exhibit is a strength and part of our
21:35
message is that we use our speech itself
21:39
as the means of persuading one another
21:42
like free speech doesn’t sound like a
21:46
you know silence
21:48
it sounds like speech and that’s why a
21:50
lot of times you’ll see a lot of
21:52
dialogue going on and I suddenly just
21:55
feel like it’s a little dismissive to
21:58
just call that infighting when what’s
22:00
really going on is that we’re all very
22:02
passionate and we all want to live in a
22:03
world set free and that vision is very
22:06
exciting and so we get excited and we
22:08
talk about it and we should be talking
22:10
about it so for me I just feel like
22:12
leading into that unity vibe that has
22:15
been emerges emerging and just rolling
22:18
forward with it and letting it unfold
22:19
and become something even more beautiful
22:22
very good very good guys so that was
22:25
question one and then now here is
22:28
question two and Todd you will be
22:30
starting on this we actually saw how one
22:33
of these rifts turned out recently in
22:36
the party with what I’m calling mad
22:38
or gate as you know much the founder of
22:41
black guns matter had been invited to be
22:44
the keynote speaker at last at next
22:46
year’s national convention in Austin as
22:49
a result of some anti-immigrant and anti
22:52
LGBT talk as well as a appearance of
22:55
insulting a major donor to the party
22:57
match was uninvited there’s some scandal
23:00
as to how that happened exactly but this
23:03
entire situation has exposed a major
23:05
point of contention
23:06
well actually multiple major points of
23:07
contention within the party what is your
23:09
opinion of how this whole thing went
23:12
down how would you handle have handled
23:14
it differently if at all and then
23:16
broadly speaking how anti libertarian do
23:19
you think someone’s opinions can be
23:20
before they should not any longer be
23:23
considered for a prominent role within
23:25
the party sure that’s a great question
23:28
and and after that’s all went down I got
23:31
on the phone with Majin we talked to
23:33
talked it through and I listened to his
23:35
part of the story understood where he
23:38
was coming from gots exactly how it went
23:40
down in his eyes over the entire
23:43
campaign and that right at the end I
23:44
think that’s the important part first is
23:47
to listen to what’s happening here’s the
23:50
deal this goes back to professionalize
23:52
in the party right Wow
23:54
if we I mean miles didn’t change from
23:56
the beginning of the campaign to the end
23:58
he was the same guy so if we if we
24:01
didn’t do our due diligence or if we if
24:04
we liked him and then and then didn’t
24:06
like some of the things he said you know
24:08
shame on us for for going that route now
24:12
are we allowed to take a speakership
24:14
away from somebody who says something
24:16
that’s inherently anti libertarian yes
24:19
okay yes you’re allowed to do that
24:21
however I believe he was chosen because
24:25
he was slightly you know a firebrand
24:28
right it was one of the reasons we
24:30
picked him so
24:31
so should we have taken away maybe
24:33
should we have taken it away without a
24:35
boat and and very publicly and and not
24:38
rehab the National Committee respond
24:40
immediately
24:41
no that should not have happened and and
24:44
frankly coming from business in a
24:46
situation that’s handled that poorly
24:48
that out in the public if somebody
24:49
offers their resignation I take
24:52
now how often or how how off-brand do
24:55
you have to be before we kick you out of
24:57
the party I don’t believe in kicking
24:58
people out of the party it’s more more
25:00
of should he have been the National
25:03
speaker and I think that the right
25:05
decision was probably made in the
25:08
extremely wrong way but I’m excited
25:11
about the person we replaced it with I
25:13
think that’s a fantastic choice and the
25:16
best possible
25:17
you know solution in the end but but I
25:20
like Maj and I I feel bad for how it
25:22
went down I think that that he was done
25:23
wrong you just did almost exactly two
25:26
minutes I just want to applaud you for
25:27
that
25:28
um and okay so okay Mike your turn
25:33
thoughts on Maj gate thanks spike so you
25:39
know the day that maj announced that he
25:42
had left the party and we later found
25:44
out that he had been disinvited that
25:46
morning my impulse immediately actually
25:51
and you would have thought yay we won or
25:55
whatever but actually I immediately
25:58
thought wait a minute
25:59
okay somebody just basically got chewed
26:02
up and spit out and each one of us
26:05
should probably take personal
26:07
responsibility for taking a look at the
26:09
role that we played in that and when I
26:11
did that I reached some uncomfortable
26:13
conclusions right because what really
26:16
happened here is that maj ended up
26:17
becoming a symbol for a bigger problem
26:19
right minorities are disproportionally
26:22
underrepresented in this party and we
26:25
all feel that and we all want to do
26:26
something about it and that’s a systemic
26:29
issue that needs to be like looked at
26:31
and deeply interrogated to figure out
26:33
why it’s like that and how we can work
26:35
together to overcome it and when I
26:39
looked at it in that light I realized
26:41
that the Convention Committee had you
26:44
know this opportunity to platform
26:46
somebody and my eyes kind of got swept
26:51
into that as a symbol for a problem that
26:54
he could never have solved for it it
26:56
wasn’t his problem to solve it’s our
26:58
problem it was everyone’s problem and
27:01
you know then unfortunately he ended up
27:04
quiting over it
27:05
because the next thing you know these
27:07
problematic tweets are coming out and
27:09
then now he’s the target of the call-out
27:12
and the pushback and the and the entire
27:16
thing was basically a giant ugly piece
27:20
of systemic racism in front of all of
27:22
our faces and that is not okay
27:26
so the reality is that there’s no easy
27:29
fix that the chair can implement by the
27:34
time all that was unfolding it was too
27:36
late because if you want to dismantle
27:38
systemic racism in your institution you
27:40
have to do the groundwork over time I
27:43
agree with mr. Hagopian we need to
27:46
listen to people the experiences they’re
27:48
having you’ve gone over it so that if
27:51
you can just wrap up a little bit sorry
27:52
I’ll just say the chairs not an
27:54
authority they’re an advocate but there
27:57
are lots of ways to weaponize that
27:58
privilege to achieve the change we need
28:01
over time okay very good and then Josh
28:04
your thoughts on maage gate yeah I’m
28:08
surprised how much I aligned with
28:11
Shipley here be – I’m not gonna call I’m
28:16
not gonna call everyone involved racist
28:17
but I will say I think the mosque
28:18
situation was a very very rough one and
28:20
it was truly handled poorly all the way
28:22
around I’m not I’m gonna clarify that
28:25
I’m not a big fan of the things that Maj
28:27
has said some of the tweets I’ve seen or
28:29
the attitudes towards our donors but I
28:31
do believe that the pitchfork caucus
28:33
came out in full effect
28:35
you know myself having grown up in the
28:38
hood I understand that this is the
28:40
speech that’s given they’re always they
28:42
don’t play PC politics in the hood and
28:43
if anyone tried they probably get
28:45
laughed or mocked all the way back to
28:46
their middle to upper-class
28:47
neighborhoods that they came from so
28:49
again I’m not condoning that kind of
28:52
speech but I believe a lot of people who
28:54
were very loudest about this situation
28:56
have led a somewhat different life than
28:59
Maj or myself and that life is not the
29:02
reality for people like maj and where
29:04
maj is from so I really think we should
29:08
have tried to be a little more
29:08
understanding I think there could have
29:10
been more peace brokering especially
29:12
from our chair
29:13
Maj can do a lot of really great things
29:16
in communities that we have historically
29:17
been very bad at Reed
29:19
plain and simple so there’s not much I
29:23
could have done as chair you know we
29:25
don’t have we don’t have the right as
29:27
chair to kick people out of the party um
29:29
but I would like to see a lot more peace
29:32
brokering coming from the chair and I
29:34
also want to publicly state I believe
29:38
Daniel Hays unilaterally told maj he was
29:41
disinvited to purposely take the heat
29:43
off the convention Oversight Committee I
29:45
believe that he knew the vote was gonna
29:47
go that way and he decided to just take
29:49
all the heat you know he’s he’s a huge
29:51
mob supporter like still so anyway it’s
29:54
like I said I think it was handled badly
29:55
on all sides in his chair I would hope
29:57
to be able to be unifying voice and it
30:01
can kind of broker more peace on issues
30:02
like this when I’m needed okay very good
30:05
I don’t know if you guys are actually
30:07
keeping count but you have also done an
30:09
amazing job of staying within two
30:10
minutes for the most part I don’t think
30:12
I’d be as good at that so okay so with
30:15
the next question
30:17
Mike you will start and the question is
30:20
this question was actually inspired by
30:21
the current chair Nick’s are marks
30:24
question to me as you more than likely
30:27
know the Libertarian Party was created
30:28
in 1971 with the goal of ending the cult
30:31
of the omnipotent state that has not
30:34
happened as far the LP has had some
30:37
success in the local and state levels
30:39
but has never won an election on the
30:41
federal level what would you what do you
30:43
think you could do differently or better
30:45
than previous chairs in order to for the
30:49
LP to gain to achieve that goal thanks
30:53
spike that’s a great question so the
30:57
first thing I want to say is that we are
30:58
not an idea farm for the old parties
31:01
what I mean by that is that we’re
31:03
watching them pick up things that we’ve
31:05
been promoting for years sex workers or
31:08
transgender rights queer liberation
31:11
ending the drug war right these were
31:14
really bold forward-thinking ideas that
31:16
our delegates placed in the platform and
31:18
they fought to keep it in there
31:19
time after time people tried to chip
31:22
away at the integrity of our platform
31:24
and those delegates fought to keep those
31:26
ideas and despite that leadership chose
31:29
for our own good to fail to stand on
31:32
and unfortunately that in authenticity
31:35
over the years has led to a situation
31:39
where we are now watching the
31:40
progressive left steal our ideas and
31:43
having to post things on our social
31:46
media like that was our idea all along
31:48
okay yeah the delegates yeah the
31:51
membership wanted those things to be our
31:53
ideas but we hid them anyway when we
31:56
fail to stand on them so I think one of
31:58
the greatest things that I could do as
32:00
chair is to actually lead by example
32:02
what does it mean to own a bold idea I
32:04
really run with it and fill it up with
32:07
its full potential so that’s my answer
32:09
okay very good and then Josh thoughts on
32:13
what you would do better or differently
32:16
than previous chairs to grow the party
32:18
and hopefully win at the federal level
32:20
oh I think the glaring differences are
32:23
my messaging and my emphasis on
32:24
membership last year during the debate I
32:27
was told by a current chair that
32:28
membership is a lagging indicator of
32:30
success and this year I’ve watched as
32:32
increasing membership is helping do
32:34
things like fix the heater at
32:35
headquarters help on ballot access
32:37
issues pay new staff members who are
32:40
focusing on development so fundraising
32:43
and membership need to be at the
32:44
forefront of everything the Chairman
32:45
does or I believe I would be failing as
32:48
the chair so as far as winning races I
32:52
believe switching the focus to
32:53
developing candidates is extremely
32:55
important I’m extremely grateful to see
32:58
more candidates running locally this
33:00
year I think that’s great if we learned
33:02
nothing else from supervisor Jeff Hewitt
33:05
we should always keep with us that he
33:07
won mayor first and he showed his
33:09
Community House policies could enrich
33:10
their lives he could easily run for
33:14
governor of California now I believe and
33:16
have a real shot that’s you know because
33:18
he worked his way up he put in his time
33:21
to learn the jobs of those positions and
33:23
he put together a stellar team that you
33:25
know had the knowledge to get wins I
33:26
mean we only have one Boomer Shannon but
33:30
that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have
33:31
leadership that are using innovative
33:34
ways to train the next 20 boomers
33:36
Shannon’s so I think my emphasis like I
33:39
said on membership and fundraising and
33:42
and candidate development is really
33:44
gonna be a step in another great
33:47
direction for the party okay very good
33:50
yeah and and Todd thoughts on what you
33:56
would do better or differently than
33:58
previous chairs and in growing the party
34:00
in winning federal elections hopefully
34:03
sure well first I just want to say I
34:05
think it’s the wrong question so we’re
34:08
not gonna win the presidency before we
34:10
win our first house seat we’re not gonna
34:12
win our first sorry first 20 House seats
34:15
we’re not gonna win her first 20 House
34:17
seats till we win on our first house
34:19
seats we’re not gonna win our first
34:20
house seat so we went a thousand local
34:22
elections
34:23
so the third plank of my platform is win
34:25
local elections and I want to give a
34:27
shout out here to the folks I’m running
34:30
against and Nick we’ve done a really
34:31
good job increasing local election wins
34:35
but I want to call out a situation I was
34:37
involved in here in Oklahoma so the the
34:40
gubernatorial candidate last election
34:43
ran as the libertarian and got a few
34:46
percent of the votes the following year
34:48
he used everything that we learned and
34:51
he ran in the City Council race this
34:52
year and got 60% of the votes and won
34:55
against two other folks what was the
34:57
difference
34:58
it was a nonpartisan local election
35:01
where he did not have to run against an
35:03
R and a D he just was able to use his
35:06
experience running and and the same
35:09
campaign tactics to go and win locally
35:12
and the idea here is is we need to focus
35:16
on nonpartisan races with low to entry
35:20
where there’s low signature counts low
35:23
dollars to file and put professional
35:26
people in there who can do their jobs
35:29
every day and win these part-time
35:31
positions and get libertarian ideas out
35:34
there in the local level as that starts
35:36
to build up like Josh said it can go to
35:39
the next level and the next level win
35:40
some state houses then we can talk about
35:43
federal but in order to talk about
35:45
federal right now it’s just
35:46
irresponsible it’s not what we should be
35:47
focusing on we need to focus almost a
35:50
hundred percent of our time on winning
35:52
at the local level okay very good before
35:54
I continue clarification on my own
35:56
rulz I had said anytime someone gets
35:58
mentioned they have a minute to respond
36:01
I meant like in a derogatory or a
36:03
critical way not like I agree with you
36:05
because otherwise if I’m just giving you
36:08
a minute to be like oh hey thanks so
36:10
we’re not going to do that so this next
36:12
question we’re gonna start with Josh
36:14
josh possibly the biggest problem that
36:17
all political political parties
36:18
including the libertarian party faces is
36:20
youth engagement young people are
36:23
increasingly tuning out for
36:25
understandable reasons they see the
36:26
political system as being hopelessly
36:28
corrupt and unresponsive to their
36:30
concerns and so a lot of them have
36:32
chosen either to completely disengage or
36:35
worse to worse yet to adhere themselves
36:38
to some radical statist candidate who
36:40
promises them the world what have you
36:42
already done to engage youth in your
36:45
current respective capacities and how
36:48
would you expand upon that as chair yeah
36:51
absolutely again I believe this all
36:53
comes back to messaging honestly the the
36:55
youth the youth are mostly done with
36:57
Wars you know they’re done with the drug
36:59
wars and a failed criminal justice
37:01
system regardless of what social media
37:03
may say these days the youth are pretty
37:05
smart you know they have access to
37:08
almost infinite information at the tips
37:11
of their fingers every day many are
37:13
starting the show that they’re ready for
37:15
a third party now whether that’s the
37:17
Libertarian Party or the DSA or whatever
37:20
is debatable but we have to stay
37:21
consistent and not try to model
37:23
ourselves after the old to parties like
37:25
Mike Shipley said you know if if they
37:27
wanted the two old parties they already
37:29
have that option
37:30
it’s been there for lots and lots of
37:32
years and in 2016
37:33
61% of the population gave the two old
37:36
parties the finger in the presidential
37:38
election so I say let’s give them a
37:40
better option by being consistent in
37:42
principle and showing that we truly are
37:44
ready to be the vehicle for hope and
37:46
change that they see very good Todd
37:49
thoughts on what you’ve done to in so
37:52
far in your capacities to increase youth
37:54
engagement in the Libertarian Party and
37:56
how you would expand upon that as chair
37:58
absolutely so first of all youth
38:01
engagement is huge the generation CD is
38:04
about 50% bigger than Generation Y and
38:07
and
38:08
Generation X before them so as these
38:10
generations get larger their vote is
38:13
going to be more and more important and
38:15
engaging them the way they want to be
38:17
engaged it’s going to be extremely
38:19
important so first of all what am I done
38:21
you know all I’ve done I would say is is
38:24
engage people where they are so about
38:26
50% according to a poll that I ran about
38:29
50% of the followers that I have are Gen
38:33
Y or Gen Z okay they’re on Twitter
38:36
that’s one of the places they use
38:37
Facebook every time I mentioned Facebook
38:39
they call me boomer right that’s that’s
38:42
what I get when I started talking about
38:43
Facebook it’s not where they play
38:44
anymore they’re on YouTube they’re on
38:46
Twitter they’re on all these other media
38:49
so we need to talk to them where they
38:51
are if you go to the YouTube page right
38:53
now for the Libertarian Party what do
38:55
you see you see training videos on how
38:57
to run for office if you look at the
39:00
candidate section you see things on
39:02
carbon Borah okay we don’t see local
39:05
candidates that one we don’t see even
39:07
our prime time presidential candidates
39:09
it’s not a channel that is geared for
39:12
people who want to learn about the party
39:14
it’s a channel that’s geared for
39:16
internal internal views okay we need to
39:20
be talking to these people where they
39:22
want to be talked to and more
39:23
importantly we need to understand that
39:25
it’s a lot easier to turn a non voter
39:28
into a voter than it is to turn a
39:30
Republican or a Democrat into a
39:32
libertarian voter so we need to be
39:35
focusing on this and and figuring out
39:38
where to touch them and how to get them
39:41
to understand that there is a option out
39:43
there this is what we stand for and this
39:46
is how you go and get the information to
39:48
make your decision okay and thank you
39:51
for that and Mike ending with Mike you
39:54
thoughts on what you’ve done so far to
39:57
engage increase youth engagement and
39:59
what you would how you would expand upon
40:01
that as chair sure thank you so I think
40:05
what we’re seeing among young people is
40:08
that there’s this drift away from the
40:10
status quo there’s a very much’
40:11
skepticism of the way that the older
40:14
generations did things and in fact there
40:16
was this mainstream I forget which you
40:19
know Wall Street Journal some
40:21
thing one of these mainstream opinion
40:23
polls that had reported that young
40:27
people were increasingly identifying as
40:29
socialist they’re completely rejecting
40:32
capitalism altogether right now
40:34
this is extremely alarming right because
40:37
the version of socialism they’re getting
40:39
introduced to is an authoritarian
40:41
socialism that I find just terrifying
40:44
right but the reality is that when the
40:48
market is demanding something then if
40:50
you don’t meet that demand then you
40:53
missed the boat right so there’s a
40:55
strong argument for us using the the
40:59
existence of a libertarian socialist
41:02
philosophy that’s already compatible
41:05
with our platform to meet that need
41:07
right and so we actually have a proof of
41:09
concept of this right now
41:10
right so vermin supreme identifies as a
41:13
social anarchist and he had actually we
41:18
learned through I don’t remember how we
41:20
found this out because I’m not on
41:22
tick-tock and if you haven’t heard of
41:23
tick tock if you’re over 22 then you
41:27
will not know that it’s a you know you
41:30
go on there and you record videos and
41:31
you share them with your friends and
41:33
it’s a it’s a sort of viral thing that
41:35
the youth are using well he had a
41:37
hashtag on there that had a hundred and
41:39
thousand organic followers without even
41:41
existing on the site and within one
41:43
month after vermin tweeting he has over
41:46
three million so I think that it
41:49
demonstrates that there’s a real power
41:51
behind the kind of work that I’ve been
41:53
doing in this party for years and I like
41:54
to continue doing it okay very good i I
41:59
had not heard of tick tock until I was
42:03
in an air B&B; with vermin earlier this
42:06
month and he told me about it said hey
42:08
let’s make a video and so we made the
42:10
stupidest video I’ve ever done in my
42:12
life which is also the most viewed thing
42:14
I’ve done in my entire life so that’s
42:17
fun I got that going for me so if anyone
42:21
goes on what’s on our page too but don’t
42:24
look for it it’s terrible
42:25
just forget that it ever happened so
42:27
this is my final question and for my
42:30
final question I will ask each of you
42:32
your own question for you
42:35
based on my taking the criticism that
42:38
I’ve received from followers of each of
42:39
you and distilling them into one
42:41
question to give you a chance to respond
42:43
to it directly to them publicly in your
42:46
own words
42:47
these questions are rough for everyone
42:52
no one got a break in this these
42:55
questions did not pull any punches
42:56
they’re not my opinion or the opinion of
42:59
muddied water’s media please don’t hate
43:02
me
43:02
would that said oh and by the way you
43:05
also add for every criticism you had you
43:07
had a ton of people that were supporting
43:08
you so this is not like it wasn’t like
43:10
all the followers at all we hate him and
43:11
there’s well but the ones who had
43:13
specific criticisms of you I distilled
43:15
them down we’re gonna continue in order
43:17
and start with Todd I’m Todd you were
43:20
active in the Republican Party up until
43:23
last year no one I spoke with had ever
43:25
heard of you except for possibly a few
43:27
tweets that they liked and even some of
43:29
your tweets seem to denote you more to
43:32
them as more of a conservative than a
43:33
libertarian how can you lead a national
43:35
party when you have never participated
43:38
in it in any way so everything you just
43:41
said is false so let me correct that
43:44
record yeah I was last a Republican at
43:48
the beginning of 2016 I endorsed Austin
43:51
Peterson prior to the primary in 2016
43:54
and joined the Ohio party in 2016 join
43:58
the national party in 2017 join the
44:01
Oklahoma party in 2019 after I moved so
44:05
none of that is correct so and I have
44:08
been making libertarian tweets since far
44:11
before I was libertarian but let’s just
44:13
say 2016 when I mean when I officially
44:16
changed libertarian I think you’ll find
44:18
very few anti libertarian tweets at any
44:21
point since then but fair questioning on
44:25
how long I’ve been a libertarian and how
44:27
long you know I’ve been involved in the
44:29
party so here’s the deal I took a long
44:33
time to change my views so in 2010 2011
44:37
I saw Ron Paul and I saw Justin Amash
44:40
and I didn’t have this big aha moment
44:42
that everybody talks about okay it
44:43
didn’t just click for me I grew up in
44:46
Ann Arbor Michigan it’s a very
44:47
democratic place I was
44:49
court Republican when you grow up in
44:51
that scenario you block you punch back
44:53
you you defend your ideology and that’s
44:57
all you learn how to do it took me a lot
44:59
of self-reflection on every single issue
45:02
going issue by issue to slowly get to
45:05
where I am now and I believe that’s an
45:08
asset not a liability then I that I was
45:11
reflective about it and then just adopt
45:13
34 planks because I joined a new party
45:16
so there yeah okay
45:18
and Mike I love you and I feel bad
45:25
because you gave me that great starting
45:27
speech before we started but here is
45:30
here’s your question Mike many of my
45:33
followers consider you to be mercurial
45:35
quick to attack people who disagree with
45:37
you even a little and you also as you’ve
45:40
noted you represent an ideological
45:41
branch of libertarianism that isn’t as
45:43
large the majority of members actually
45:46
reject it how do you feel that you can
45:48
unite a party when so many in it feel
45:51
that you are one of its possible chief
45:53
dividers well you know it’s a fair
46:02
criticism and I think I come back to
46:05
what I said earlier about bond immunity
46:08
the fact that there’s even a thing
46:11
called Prag Decius now after earlier it
46:16
might when I used to identify as
46:17
borderline and cap myself and and back
46:21
in those days the the standard kind of
46:24
like this very old you know it had been
46:26
it was going on for so many years it was
46:29
just totally boring by that point you
46:31
know between menarche and anarchy should
46:33
there be a state or should there not be
46:34
astir right and that was like the
46:36
long-standing divide and that that
46:37
battle line was drawn there and that was
46:40
the culture that I grew into as a
46:42
libertarian and you know the fact that
46:46
having been kind of like partisan to the
46:48
radical side in when that was a thing to
46:52
a moment where the bottom unity campaign
46:55
has actually broken down that wall so
46:57
completely that there are now people
46:58
identifying openly as proud ashes and
47:02
checking their comments bottom unity to
47:04
defend one another’s right to speak and
47:06
literally joining the vermin supreme
47:08
campaign I think that speaks a lot to
47:11
the power of this narrative and just
47:13
this claiming of the intellectual
47:17
diversity that we have as an asset and
47:20
really owning that you know the reality
47:25
is totalitarianism is a terrifying thing
47:29
and the people that are reacting to the
47:31
word socialism are right to react to if
47:35
they’re imagining that then yeah I find
47:39
that abhorrent as well so you know I
47:42
don’t even have to like apologize for
47:45
that you know but I do hope that people
47:47
keep an open mind and just recognize
47:49
that someone who built their reputation
47:51
on kind of standing up to the principles
47:54
that this party is only going to
47:56
continue doing that and the work that
47:59
I’ve been doing is a continuance of that
48:01
so it is what it is okay very good and
48:06
Josh you will always be my joshie bear
48:09
don’t forget that your question is the
48:14
criticisms that I got of you were that
48:17
you were in a lot of projects that
48:20
aren’t really seeming to complete seems
48:22
like you kind of I guess they’re saying
48:23
you start a lot of projects and aren’t
48:25
finishing them you appear to be dealing
48:27
with some personal injury issues in your
48:29
life many who felt or were concerned as
48:32
though you’re doing this for finance
48:34
reasons what do you have to say to those
48:37
who think that your campaign could
48:39
potentially just be opportunism I mean
48:42
you’re wrong I’ve been working for this
48:44
party for the last two years and that
48:45
large on the on the National Committee I
48:48
don’t know what projects anybody’s
48:50
talking about that I finished or started
48:52
and haven’t finished I mean we worked
48:54
really hard on the the lp everywhere
48:56
campaign of course that was a full
48:57
committee that worked on that I like I
49:00
said I’m the number one recruiter on the
49:02
LNC as far as new members you know i
49:04
fund raised more than a lot of the
49:06
people in they don’t see you know and so
49:08
anybody that’s saying that it either
49:11
doesn’t follow me or just has a chip on
49:13
their shoulder I
49:15
I have no reason that this doesn’t boost
49:17
my status running for chair of the party
49:20
I mean literally you know at most 15,000
49:24
people are gonna know about me so it’s
49:26
you know I don’t I just don’t I don’t
49:29
even know how to answer that question to
49:30
be honest with you okay
49:32
yes I I see I see an opportunity for our
49:35
party to be more successful I think I’ve
49:37
laid down a blueprint that is proving to
49:39
help the party be more successful with
49:42
results and and that’s why I’m doing it
49:44
and there’s no other reason you know I
49:47
have a full-time job
49:48
a really nice full-time job I make
49:50
plenty of money I have my you know my
49:52
own place I have a vehicle I don’t I
49:54
don’t need to be funded I don’t need to
49:56
ask the Libertarian Party to pay me for
50:00
this job and so if anybody thinks that
50:02
that’s what I’m moving towards they’re
50:04
just wrong okay very good
50:07
and so that was the craziest part that I
50:10
wasn’t looking forward to of this and
50:11
even considered not doing it but I
50:13
wanted to give you guys a chance to
50:15
answer these criticisms because they do
50:17
exist and like I said for every
50:20
criticism there was there were more
50:21
people saying you know how happy they
50:23
were that you were in it and that they
50:24
were supporting you so now we will do
50:27
the we will do the part where each of
50:30
you will ask the other debaters a
50:33
question and I didn’t really give a time
50:37
limit but I guess however long it takes
50:39
for you to ask a question and we will
50:40
start with Mike if you want to ask I
50:44
guess Todd first and he can answer and
50:46
then ask Joshua and he can answer all
50:50
right thank you spike
50:51
so mr. Hagopian there must have been one
50:56
final straw right because you’re
50:59
thinking in your mind I should run for
51:01
their chair and maybe you’re not you’re
51:04
you’re doubting and guy will write and
51:06
then there’s a moment where you’re like
51:07
oh my gosh I’ve had enough I’m running
51:11
so if you just think about whatever that
51:13
thing was what exactly do you plan on
51:16
doing about that thing yeah so that’s a
51:20
great question like so yes I you know I
51:23
had looked at advice chair potentially
51:26
the last time around didn’t do it
51:28
I had thought about chair this time but
51:31
really I was looking at a local race and
51:33
and actually kind of getting excited
51:34
about a local race but but I kept coming
51:38
back to it kept coming back people kept
51:40
asking me and and at the end of the day
51:42
what did it was I got access to the
51:45
financials of the party and I’m a
51:48
financial guy
51:48
okay I’ve run pianos that are four
51:51
hundred times as big as the libertarian
51:54
party’s you know so I took a look at
51:56
this P&L; and I could not believe what I
51:58
saw
51:59
and there is just things that we can do
52:02
differently to to get better financially
52:06
Drive the overhead down make better use
52:10
of our dollars ninety five percent of
52:12
the money time and effort in this party
52:14
ninety nine probably it’s volunteer work
52:17
if people start seeing those dollars
52:19
being used more efficiently and more
52:21
effectively they’re willing to give more
52:23
money and give more time and give more
52:25
effort and I believe that the first
52:27
thing we have to do is then met up get
52:29
that professionalized and make sure that
52:32
people understand that their money and
52:33
their effort is going to be used as
52:35
efficiently as effectively as possible
52:36
and that’s essentially what I do every
52:39
day and that’s where that final straw I
52:41
guess came in my kids I just you know I
52:44
looked at it and I said I can I can fix
52:46
this and I don’t know how people want it
52:48
fixed or not but I can do it if that’s
52:50
what they want okay and then your
52:53
question to Josh Mike what okay yeah
52:58
yeah yeah
52:59
so you’ve evolved you’ve come around on
53:03
bond immunity and I really appreciate
53:05
that
53:06
what is one of the benefits you have
53:08
found from the bottom unity campaign all
53:12
if I’m being selfish it’s that no one’s
53:14
attacking me really anymore which is
53:16
nice look I’ve said this over and over
53:21
and over again at this point I am going
53:23
to work with anybody who wants to roll
53:26
the state back in any area without
53:28
advocating for adding more states
53:31
somewhere else and and you know I’ve had
53:34
problems with a lot of people in your
53:35
camp you’ve had a lot of problems with
53:36
people in my camp but I’ve also met
53:38
people who are wonderful in your camp
53:39
and and I think
53:40
it you know being able to work with the
53:43
people in this party and being unified
53:44
and is gonna take us further then
53:47
constantly pouring our swords inwards
53:49
and so you know III think it’s been a
53:52
good thing I think you know you and I
53:54
have talked a lot over the last year a
53:55
lot and and I’ve talked to other
53:58
unlikely people over the last year that
54:00
that you know called me all kinds of
54:01
names last year so and I think it’s
54:04
great that we’ve been able to kind of at
54:06
least find some common ground that we
54:08
can work on things together and so
54:10
that’s been the best part for me is
54:12
knowing that we can be more successful
54:14
driving together than we are gonna be
54:16
you know butting heads all the time that
54:20
was so pretty yeah I don’t really I’m
54:27
glad that this is how this parts going
54:30
cuz I was not I did not enjoy the last
54:31
part so Josh this is your time to ask
54:36
questions starting I guess with Todd and
54:41
then and then with Mike sure I’m
54:43
probably not gonna be as nice as Mike
54:45
was but I just have some serious issues
54:47
that I won’t answer it so Todd you said
54:50
you joined the the National libertarian
54:52
party into 2016 I don’t I’m not sure
54:55
that I haven’t looked at the the roles
54:56
but I know that you just joined Oklahoma
54:58
November 9th you have almost zero
55:01
experience with the LP no experience
55:03
with libertarian candidates or ballot
55:06
drives or fundraising drives or
55:07
initiative based coalition’s or
55:09
political lawsuits you don’t know the
55:12
names of our biggest donors you told me
55:14
several times that you turn around
55:15
businesses and have several times said
55:17
that that’s where you and I differ but I
55:19
have also helped rebrand businesses and
55:21
turn them into successful profit
55:22
machines including two big fine-dining
55:25
restaurants in Portland Oregon that now
55:26
make quadruple what they did before my
55:29
management and consulting so I know from
55:31
experience that leadership in a
55:32
political party and fixing businesses
55:34
are two very different things
55:36
how how will you make the leap to
55:38
leadership of a national political party
55:41
without any experience and what it takes
55:43
to run a political party yeah so let me
55:45
just first correct one thing there I
55:48
said I joined the National Party in
55:49
seventeen that’s what it says on the
55:51
card so cool
55:53
I feel free too
55:54
I can send you that just so we can put
55:56
it to bed right but everything else you
55:59
said is fair Josh and it’s going to be a
56:00
fair criticism throughout this entire
56:02
campaign and what I would say is all
56:04
three of us have spent the last ten
56:06
years doing different things and we’ve
56:08
got a very different resume and
56:10
different skill sets
56:11
had I been doing the activism that you
56:14
guys have been doing I would not have
56:16
been able to run to eight million eight
56:17
hundred million dollar P&L; I would not
56:19
be able to have two hundred fifty
56:21
employees I would not be able to move
56:23
around three times in five years move my
56:26
family all across the country to take on
56:28
new challenges because I would be so
56:30
involved in the state campaigns now now
56:34
so why did I get involved in Ohio you
56:36
know well I knew I was only going to be
56:38
there for three years why didn’t I get
56:40
involved in Oklahoma right when I got
56:42
here well I was taking over a business
56:44
that had two factories and 250 employees
56:46
and by the way I did reach out to each
56:48
of the three governor candidates prior
56:51
to even moving to Oklahoma and and then
56:54
I ended up on TV with one of them doing
56:57
an interview and then I helped them with
56:59
their 2019 campaign so it’s not exactly
57:01
true to say I have not been involved in
57:03
campaigns in fact I’ve been involved
57:05
more in campaigns than I have with state
57:07
parties which is a very very fair
57:09
criticism and and but at the end of the
57:12
day turning around an organization is
57:15
the same and I understand people can say
57:18
it’s not every time I’ve ever taken over
57:20
a company or an organization what
57:23
happens and I hear three things one
57:26
everything’s going okay – that won’t
57:30
work here and three it’s not going to be
57:33
the same as what you did last time okay
57:35
those are the three things I hear every
57:36
time there’s frameworks that you use
57:39
it’s not the same mechanism it’s not
57:41
always the same answer this framework
57:43
say you apply you do a lot of listening
57:45
you put them through the frameworks and
57:47
you identify the problems and then you
57:49
identify solutions and more importantly
57:51
you put together a strategy I mean
57:54
there’s not be different since between
57:56
us but if you can just if you can wrap
57:59
up difference between us Josh but but at
58:02
the end of the day I spent the last ten
58:03
years doing something different than you
58:05
and it’s given me different skill set
58:08
okay and then Josh your question to Mike
58:12
Mike
58:13
so spikes last question was kind of like
58:17
my question I think you clarified pretty
58:18
well on the ideological stuff but my
58:22
concern with you is that you have spent
58:24
a lot of time over the last you know
58:26
several years attacking people in the
58:28
party and I’d like to know how you plan
58:30
to lead a party that has so many people
58:33
that it feels like you vehemently hate
58:35
so much and if and how you’re gonna go
58:39
about building inroads with those people
58:41
that you’re gonna have to be a leader of
58:47
alright I think there were probably like
58:49
thank you for a great question and it’s
58:53
an important one so I’m not gonna dodge
58:55
it but there were like five different
58:57
questions packed into one so I’m just
58:59
gonna like stab in that general genre
59:02
and hope something comes out that
59:03
resonates with the listener probably the
59:09
experience I can point to and that
59:11
others can actually remember and look to
59:14
is the way that I handled my duties as
59:18
chair of outright libertarians
59:20
so when I became chair about rate
59:22
libertarians the organization was nearly
59:24
bankrupt and our membership was
59:26
ridiculously low and basically if you
59:30
even said the word gay out loud it was
59:32
collectivism and you know why don’t you
59:36
go back to the Democrats and my sort of
59:40
entire impulse behind all of the work
59:44
that followed from that was taking kind
59:47
of ownership of the responsibility that
59:50
came with that job right the chair about
59:53
libertarians has to figure out how to
59:56
transform the internal courts culture so
59:58
that the party will actually stand
60:00
behind its plank instead of pretending
60:04
it didn’t exist right and we were
60:06
missing the opportunity gay marriage was
60:08
at the front of politics at the time
60:11
anyway by the time I was done as chair
60:15
of that organization yes I had come into
60:17
conflict with many things I had
60:19
discovered that paleo I the smoke
60:21
gun was this article from 1990 in
60:24
Liberty magazine paleo libertarianism
60:27
and we were all there you remember the
60:31
Domino’s that fell and everything that I
60:33
uncovered as I pushed through that past
60:36
but the important thing is that it was a
60:40
struggle for individual liberty that led
60:43
me to those barriers and that I had to
60:47
overcome to succeed at the job that I
60:50
had and the fact that I accomplished
60:52
that as well as tripling membership and
60:55
quadrupling fundraising sorry oh just
60:57
now one of the most successful and
60:59
powerful caucuses in the party and I
61:02
hear that my time is up so I’ll just
61:03
stop there ultimately if you know you’re
61:07
not pissing people off you’re not
61:09
fighting for liberty and I don’t know
61:12
how to make that go away ok and now it
61:17
is Todd’s turn Todd start with your
61:20
question to Mike and then after that
61:22
your question to Josh so start with your
61:24
question to Mike sure well I’m going to
61:27
try to try to keep the positive campaign
61:30
going that I’ve been pledging to run
61:32
here by Ken and I’ve actually been
61:34
extremely satisfied and and excited as
61:38
I’ve started to do a little research on
61:39
you and understand some of the stuff
61:41
you’ve done and I think with the
61:42
audience listening today and the
61:44
different folks from the different
61:45
caucuses and state parties I think it’d
61:47
just be good to give you some time to
61:49
talk about how you grew that caucus so
61:51
fast and just some of the methods you
61:54
use and I think we’d all benefit from
61:56
hearing that well what was the question
62:03
again yeah just talk more about what I
62:05
was saying that you used to grow that so
62:09
fast I just want to hear about what you
62:11
did and I think that the audience would
62:13
benefit from here and some of those
62:15
methods sure thank you for that chance
62:18
actually I love talking about how I
62:20
actually do good work so the first thing
62:26
we observed is that the idea that gender
62:30
and sexual minorities standing up for
62:32
our own individuality
62:35
was collectivism well it’s kind of like
62:38
a primary like that’s what do you say to
62:41
that right because the mainstream Left
62:43
is approaching those issues through a
62:45
collectivist Spring right so the first
62:49
thing we did when we really sat down to
62:51
figure out how do we overcome this by we
62:55
I mean mostly me but there were a few
62:57
more other board members at the time we
62:59
had a very small group of people to work
63:01
with and we took the non-aggression
63:03
principle and we said let’s go through
63:05
every way that the state is a source of
63:09
coercive control over the lives of
63:11
gender sexual minorities and let’s make
63:13
a giant list of them and we came up with
63:16
this flier called get your laws off our
63:18
backs and once you look at that you’re
63:21
like what do you say to that and I
63:24
remember going to the 2014 convention
63:26
and we placed one of those at every one
63:30
of the delegate seats and nobody really
63:34
questioned it there were a lot of people
63:36
kind of looking away when they saw the
63:37
thing but a lot of other people took
63:40
their copy and got so excited and ran up
63:42
and was like how can you get involved I
63:44
want a button this is great we needed
63:46
this for years and that was really like
63:49
the turning point is that we actually
63:51
used libertarian theory to stand up for
63:56
the individual go figure
63:58
you just have to flex what you already
64:00
have um the other thing we did is we
64:02
took a favorite outreach tool called the
64:06
world’s smallest political quiz and we
64:09
made something called the world’s gayest
64:10
political quiz so we came up with five
64:12
economic and five social questions that
64:14
were about gender and sexual minority
64:16
issues and then we just gave that to
64:18
people answer the questions surprise
64:21
you’re a libertarian and by the way
64:22
you’re a libertarian this supports
64:23
gender and sexual minority rights and
64:25
that converted a lot of people to both
64:27
internally and it has been really
64:29
successful for people at Pride
64:31
outreaches so my time is up and I yield
64:33
the last second there let it was
64:36
actually the last negative 19 seconds
64:38
but that’s fine
64:39
so so Todd your your question to Josh
64:43
yes you’re obviously a prolific
64:48
um recruiter within the party and I
64:51
really appreciate that talk to us a
64:53
little bit about some of the methods you
64:54
used to make that happen I know you
64:56
travel a lot what’s the most effective
64:58
couple methods that folks who are
65:00
listening can replicate so that we can
65:02
get a lot more prolific recruiters
65:05
definitely messaging I mean look at that
65:07
because I’ve traveled so much for you
65:11
know my campaigns and this party and
65:14
fundraising events and the likes I’ve
65:17
been able to and I said this last year
65:19
put my finger on the pulse of the
65:21
movement not just the party there’s way
65:24
more libertarians that are outside of
65:26
the party then there are inside the
65:28
party I mean wait I it’s not in close
65:30
you know we have we’re finally back up
65:32
over 15,000 national members right now
65:35
which is low there’s you know probably
65:38
millions of small all libertarians
65:40
around the country and they all want the
65:42
same things they want a principled
65:43
consistent messenger that’s gonna you
65:45
know get in national media and and say
65:48
the things that they they won’t change
65:50
they want that anti-war message they
65:52
want the anti-war drug war message they
65:53
they want to talk about the the dangers
65:55
of the Federal Reserve you know these
65:57
are the things that you know people like
65:59
Ron Paul and and anne-marie sabering and
66:02
you know Dave Smith and and all these
66:05
people that have been successful in the
66:07
media at recruiting people to their
66:09
causes have run on those same issues you
66:12
know and and there’s no reason the
66:14
Libertarian Party shouldn’t take up the
66:15
mantle of libertarian causes plain and
66:18
simple and and I think having you know
66:20
having somebody on their side messaging
66:25
the way that they feel around the
66:27
country is is really helping them to
66:29
make that that choice to make that leap
66:31
to actually working inside the political
66:34
sphere you know and I and another thing
66:36
I think is you know there’s a lot of
66:39
libertarians that are anti political
66:40
system they don’t want to work inside
66:42
the political framework and I think I’ve
66:44
been able to alleviate some fears by
66:46
letting people know that this is just
66:47
another tool in the toolbox of Education
66:50
we’re not trying to get candidates into
66:53
positions to gain power we’re trying to
66:55
get candidates into positions to
66:58
relinquish power and I think once you’re
67:00
as a libertarian
67:01
once you started thinking of the the
67:03
political process that way you start to
67:05
realize that we’re not the two old
67:07
parties we’re not trying to come and
67:08
take power we’re trying to get people
67:10
into these positions to take the
67:11
government boot off your head and and
67:13
that’s really resonated with people
67:15
around the country and and I think that
67:17
people want to get involved you can just
67:18
rattle up ya know and I think that’s I
67:21
think that’s getting people involved I
67:22
really think that that’s you know that’s
67:24
the best medicine for that is to is to
67:26
be that principled messenger okay very
67:28
good
67:29
now gentlemen you have stopped asking
67:32
questions it’s back to me to asking
67:33
questions we have gotten questions from
67:36
quite a few people spanning across the
67:38
ideological spectrum of libertarianism I
67:40
picked through them combined some
67:43
distilled others to make what I believe
67:45
is a broad representation of the
67:47
questions that LP members have for you
67:50
again these are not all necessarily the
67:52
opinion of muddy waters a couple of them
67:53
just straight up aren’t but they were
67:55
asked quite a bit I was going to go
67:57
through the comments but there are
67:59
17,000 comments and so I’m just not even
68:01
gonna try we have some good questions
68:02
here and we’ll just go with those the
68:05
first question first question straight
68:07
up this is not you I’m giving you on
68:09
these other ones three minutes to
68:10
discuss it between you this one is
68:12
straight up yes or no answer and I will
68:13
tell you if you are right or wrong
68:14
Waffle House or IHOP Todd Mike Waffle
68:24
House but you said it was a yes-or-no
68:25
question oh it is a Waffle House or IHOP
68:33
question good catch so whopper
68:35
yes waffle yes Waffle House okay Joshua
68:41
yes or no Waffle House or I hop what No
68:45
wah-wah-wah-wah Waffle House or I hop
68:47
here’s the thing though no definitely
68:50
Waffle House okay
68:51
Waffle House now over the country I walk
68:54
into a Waffle House and the table is not
68:56
already greasy I’m leaving that’s
68:58
actually also true so you all got that
69:01
right and so you will be allowed to
69:03
continue the next question will actually
69:06
we’ll do a discussion I’ve never done
69:08
one of these before
69:09
so I think I’m gonna let you guys talk
69:10
if I feel like people aren’t getting a
69:12
chance I might interject with some
69:15
broadening of the question not 100% sure
69:17
how this going to work but we’re gonna
69:18
do it all together in the spirit of
69:20
brotherhood
69:21
so the first actual question is how do
69:25
you define libertarianism go at it all
69:35
of you this is this is a broad
69:38
discussion it’s everybody and I think
69:41
you know some of us we’ve already
69:42
touched on it but I would just say you
69:44
know from a real high level when I’m
69:46
trying to talk to somebody who doesn’t
69:48
know what the party stands for and I’m
69:50
trying to get them to understand whether
69:53
or not they should even take the next
69:54
step to look into the party I say
69:58
dramatic military reform anti-war
70:01
traumatic criminal justice reform no
70:03
crimes without victims dramatic fiscal
70:06
reform less taxes and dramatically less
70:10
spending at the end of the day if you
70:12
believe those three things I believe
70:14
there’s room for you in this party or
70:16
you should at least take the next step
70:18
and start diving into the 34 planks and
70:21
figure out where you stand okay Mike or
70:25
Josh anything dad do that
70:27
what does and the original question is
70:29
what is libertarianism how do you define
70:32
libertarianism so I’ll just speak so
70:38
when I hear that question the first
70:40
thing that comes to mind for me is I
70:42
wonder if the L is capitalized or not
70:44
and so I suppose it’s since I’m running
70:46
for a chair of the capital L party I
70:48
should answer as if the L had been
70:50
capitalized so I’ll just share kind of a
70:54
an insight that I had when I was
70:57
reviewing the bylaws to prep for this
70:59
debate and the number one statement
71:03
underneath like what the purpose for
71:06
this party is is to manifest the
71:07
libertarian political entity that is
71:09
separate and distinct from all other
71:11
political parties and movements right so
71:14
political parties and movements so for
71:17
me that’s separate and distinct I think
71:20
it almost comes back to that sense of
71:22
like kind of solidarity that we have is
71:24
that we aren’t you know
71:28
the right-wing voluntary estando der we
71:32
aren’t the radical anarchists left
71:35
we aren’t independent political
71:37
centrists we’re all of that and more and
71:40
so what the liberal what it’s like to be
71:42
a capital L libertarian is separate and
71:46
distinct from what it means to either be
71:50
a small L libertarian or just a
71:52
politically disaffected person so I do
71:56
have to defer to the founding documents
71:58
here as the chairperson the
72:00
responsibility is to stand on the
72:01
platform as it is written to stand on
72:03
the statement of principles as it is
72:05
written and those documents are very
72:07
well you know defined and written I’ll
72:10
just say that I think those are
72:11
beautiful documents I I love what they
72:13
say so anybody who is not familiar you
72:16
couldn’t go to LP org slash platform and
72:19
read that but it comes down to you know
72:23
personal responsibilities
72:24
self-determination things like that just
72:29
foundational principles that empower the
72:31
individual so that’s my answer
72:33
Josh you want to finish up here with
72:36
your how you define libertarianism small
72:39
or large L however you want to you also
72:41
yeah I think you I think you have to
72:43
separate them as far as the party goes
72:45
that platform well great in most aspects
72:49
is not set in stone you know that this
72:52
this party shows a belongs to whoever
72:55
shows up you know you have the
72:56
opportunity to become a delegate show up
72:58
to the national convention put forth
73:00
platform proposals and have them voted
73:03
on at the national convention so we
73:05
can’t we can’t say that the party and
73:08
the movement are one in the same all the
73:09
time
73:10
because it can be changed at any more
73:12
any given two years it can be changed
73:14
and so I think as far as libertarianism
73:16
goes you know it’s basic it’s it’s not
73:19
it’s the non-aggression principle you
73:21
know it’s it’s extremely basic it’s
73:23
don’t hurt people don’t take their stuff
73:25
and that’s a bumper sticker slogan but
73:27
it’s the truth
73:28
you know don’t hurt people and don’t
73:29
take their stuff and and you know they
73:32
shouldn’t do those same things to you
73:33
it’s the it’s the Golden Rule so the
73:34
thing that we teach our children from a
73:37
very young age its basic human decency
73:39
and so
73:41
I think that that’s the basis of
73:43
libertarianism and then we move to the
73:45
party and it’s the platform it’s in the
73:47
park you know and all of our platform
73:49
planks are written with that that
73:51
philosophy in mind and and so I think it
73:54
does a really good job but like I said
73:55
it could change it could change any
73:57
given two years so you have to separate
73:58
the two when you’re talking about what
74:01
this is okay very good
74:04
next question I was not originally going
74:07
to get into specific questions about
74:09
specific groups or people or anything
74:11
else this question got asked so many
74:14
times that I feel like I would be doing
74:17
a disservice to my followers for not
74:19
asking it it was asked almost verbatim
74:22
like a lot of times and so I feel like I
74:25
need to address it um the Mises caucus
74:28
this is the question the Mises caucus
74:30
has an entire plank in its platform
74:32
condemning identity politics and then
74:35
seemingly played the race card when
74:37
anyone was criticizing maje during that
74:39
whole debacle what are your thoughts on
74:41
that oh I’ll take the lead on that
74:44
obviously I don’t think that it’s just
74:48
the the Mises caucus that there it
74:51
seemed like a you know get the black guy
74:55
situation that’s what it felt like it’s
74:57
what it felt like to a lot of us you
74:59
know it was it was a big group of mainly
75:02
white people coming after a black guy
75:05
and removing him as the keynote because
75:06
they didn’t like how he spoke I mean I
75:09
get it I get the anger on their side
75:11
from from you know but but if we’re just
75:14
talking about pure optics there’s a lot
75:16
of people that felt that it looked that
75:17
way I mean Mike Shipley even said it he
75:19
feels like it’s kind of look that way
75:21
you know and so I can’t speak for
75:26
everybody and I actually I didn’t make a
75:28
big fuss about the MAS thing I tried to
75:30
stay mostly out of it in neutral I
75:32
understood where people were coming from
75:33
on both sides I also thought it was
75:35
handled really badly on both sides so I
75:38
can’t I can’t say what other people are
75:39
thinking but but I know that the Mises
75:42
caucus you know they reject identity
75:46
politics they do mostly but you know if
75:50
they felt someone was being wronged or
75:53
somebody in the caucus felt
75:55
someone was being wronged due to their
75:56
race they’re probably gonna state still
75:58
say something you know but I I don’t
76:01
think it was about race I don’t I never
76:03
felt really that it was about race I
76:05
just thought optically it looked really
76:07
bad
76:07
so Mike did you feel that it was
76:10
racially motivated the push against mosh
76:13
no no I think that I just feel like so
76:18
the aspect of it that manifests as a
76:20
racialized issue is just that the party
76:24
as a whole and you know it was was a
76:28
John it was John McAfee who stood on the
76:31
stage and said look around and see how
76:32
many white faces you see in here shame
76:34
on you and oh it’s identity politics and
76:38
we don’t relate to deal with that but
76:40
like I think in our heart of hearts you
76:43
know when you look around and that’s
76:45
actually true you wonder what are we
76:48
doing that is causing disproportional
76:50
under-representation of you know people
76:53
who don’t look like us right that is
76:56
something that needs to be addressed so
76:58
I want to touch on the identity politics
77:01
thing though because this would not be
77:03
true to outright in my roots as having
77:06
to challenge that whole thing but
77:08
identity is inherit an inherent aspect
77:11
of the individual experience right so if
77:14
I’m a gender and sexual minority person
77:16
my life is shaped partly by my
77:19
experience of coming into conflict with
77:22
authoritarian structures that are trying
77:24
to limit my individual expression of who
77:27
that aspect of myself is so to a certain
77:30
extent I feel like I don’t know if I was
77:35
starting a caucus I wouldn’t put a clank
77:36
plank in it that rejected identity
77:38
politics if I was an individualist party
77:41
so I wonder if maybe there’s some
77:44
conclusions to be drawn there but that’s
77:47
not my my mess to clean up but
77:49
ultimately it’s not that it was racially
77:52
motivated per se it’s that there was a
77:55
racialized aspect to what was happening
77:56
too much and that part is true okay Todd
78:01
thoughts on on the I guess the if you
78:05
felt like there was a racial aspect to
78:06
what happened with Maj
78:08
Saamy first of all the Mises caucus does
78:11
some amazing things I mean we their
78:13
prolific fundraisers we we love what the
78:16
Mises caucus does do I think that that
78:19
was a hypocritical reaction no I don’t
78:23
because I think identity politics is
78:25
normal when you actually feel that that
78:28
something might be happening due to
78:30
somebody’s identity and you know and I
78:33
kind of agree with Mike I don’t think it
78:35
should probably be in there anyway
78:36
because we should be calling that out as
78:38
a civil liberties party when somebody is
78:41
is potentially being targeted for for
78:45
civil rights or for who they are I think
78:48
that’s a big deal
78:49
once it racially motivated I don’t think
78:51
it was outwardly racially motivated but
78:53
to Mike’s point I think just like we see
78:56
in police forces and just like we see in
78:58
police brutality there are dozens and
79:01
dozens of studies that show that people
79:03
react differently when minorities are
79:05
involved do I think that he would have
79:07
been kicked out in the manner that he
79:09
was if he wasn’t a minority I don’t know
79:12
but it was so traumatic and the reaction
79:17
was so dramatic that it does make you
79:19
think especially coming from a party who
79:22
has so low minority representation so it
79:25
wasn’t wrong to point it out no I don’t
79:27
think so i think i think it’s a
79:28
discussion we have to have if we want to
79:30
grow okay very good
79:32
and so this next question again
79:35
combining lots of different basically
79:37
the same question i combined like about
79:40
30 different trolley problems into a
79:43
question for this one but so this
79:47
question was I’m very interested to see
79:49
how this goes if I interested I mean
79:52
mildly horrified but the question was is
79:55
rent theft and if so do you plan to buy
79:58
a home every time you go somewhere on
79:59
vacation or just squat on someone’s
80:01
porch so I’ll assume that when the
80:07
person everyone it’s for everyone but
80:09
but I think they wanted to know what you
80:11
had to say all right so here’s the thing
80:15
slogans like that work really well
80:18
just like taxation is theft because they
80:20
grab attention okay
80:22
and that is the whole point of wanting
80:24
to get attention but just like with
80:26
taxation right there might be a case
80:29
where if there’s a toll bridge I might
80:31
want to cross that is it possible that I
80:34
would pay a voluntary user fee to my you
80:36
Nissa polity I don’t know I suppose it’s
80:39
possible right and I think the same
80:42
thing with rent right so we’re looking
80:45
at a marketplace where the state
80:46
controls the supply of land title’s and
80:49
because that supply is restricted by the
80:51
state it’s a value is inflated and so we
80:54
have a system of landlordism built on
80:58
those distorted values so I think that
81:03
in a market set free the circumstances
81:05
would be very very very different but in
81:08
that circumstance I can see myself
81:11
traveling going to a convention so I can
81:13
come meet you and shake your hand right
81:15
I’m not gonna buy a house I may choose
81:18
to visit an air B&B; is that an
81:20
inherently exploitative dynamic probably
81:24
not so I think there’s a lot of nuance
81:27
behind the hashtag and what’s important
81:29
about the hashtag is opening up the door
81:31
to that conversation so we can get to
81:33
the nuance okay Joshua thoughts on rent
81:37
being theft and I guess Charlie problems
81:39
in general I don’t believe that rent is
81:42
theft I think I think that the
81:45
government shouldn’t own land title’s I
81:48
mean obviously so I think that’s where
81:50
the big break down between Mike and I
81:51
was for a long time I think if you have
81:56
a house and you want to rent it out to
81:57
somebody you should perfect be perfectly
81:59
able to do so so yeah I don’t think I
82:04
think it if it’s some kind of I caching
82:07
hashtag that’s cool but I’m not I’m not
82:10
fan of it okay Todd thoughts on rent
82:14
squatting trolleys and I I’m not gonna
82:18
try to create a terrible charlie problem
82:21
for all of you to solve after this but
82:23
go ahead Todd no as a former landlord I
82:26
would say that rent is most certainly
82:28
not the you know that your property
82:31
rights property rights are important if
82:34
you want to buy property and make money
82:36
for that property you should be able to
82:37
do so and in fact if you understand
82:39
economics as as property values go up
82:43
and down rent fluctuates as well to take
82:46
care of people and to add to the free
82:49
market a ladder that was one however
82:51
free it is market allows rent to to be
82:54
adjusted so that people can afford to
82:56
live during downtrends and up trends in
82:58
the market so no rent does that worked
83:00
ok very good and I could not come up
83:03
with a good one
83:04
I’ve had that an idea where there would
83:07
be three people on one side on the
83:09
fourth side every fifth person would
83:11
have the cure to cancer but it just got
83:14
complex so I’m just gonna I’m gonna
83:16
leave that out okay so here’s a here’s
83:19
more of a specifics in the in the weeds
83:22
question about the Libertarian Party
83:25
budget what changes would you make to
83:28
the Libertarian Party budget if any why
83:36
okay so I’m I’m gonna pack some things
83:40
here the current libertarian budget has
83:43
been balanced for the first time in many
83:45
Ilyn sees what was that but the the the
83:53
problem is is that some people I’m Allen
83:56
see have decided that the budget needs
83:58
to be so tight there’s no room for any
84:01
unexpected there’s no budget line for
84:04
unexpected things and that’s why we’re
84:06
currently working on a motion to expend
84:10
some more funds so that Jess Mears
84:11
doesn’t freeze to death at the
84:12
headquarters in Washington and yes it’s
84:14
the fourth time I’ve mentioned the AC
84:16
issue so please donate to Josh Smith LP
84:19
dot-com that’s actually for the party
84:22
not for me it’s my personalized link we
84:27
have to be ready for anything that comes
84:29
up all the time and so I think that
84:31
having some kind of discretionary budget
84:34
for any kind of emergency is really
84:37
important but here’s the thing the
84:39
budget is actually and I wanted to talk
84:41
to Todd about this before we did this
84:43
debate the budget is actually made
84:44
created by Tim Hagan the treasurer its
84:47
voted on and approved by the entire
84:50
Allen see the chair really doesn’t I
84:51
mean the chair can say hey let’s work on
84:53
some things here and there but the chair
84:55
doesn’t make the budget the chair
84:56
doesn’t approve the budget the the
84:58
treasurer does and then and then the the
85:00
Allen C votes on what to put on there
85:02
and how to approve it so it’s really up
85:05
to the Helen C but I just think that we
85:08
do need some kind of discretionary fund
85:09
where we if some kind of emergency
85:11
happens we’re able to take care of it
85:13
like out like an HVAC that breaks on a
85:17
tree a cedar breaks and freezes just
85:19
mirrors to death yeah oh gosh hashtag
85:21
save just mirrors Todd thoughts on the
85:23
budget yeah so let me just respond to
85:26
that first so I get Josh I get to make
85:29
some budget and who approves the budget
85:30
when I’m the president of a company I’m
85:34
not the one out selling I’m not the one
85:36
buying supplies from my vendors but when
85:40
my supply chain director does something
85:43
wrong I get involved when my VP of Sales
85:46
isn’t selling enough I get involved when
85:49
my controller has on it issues I get
85:51
involved as a chair as a as a leader of
85:55
an organization it’s a responsibility to
85:57
get involved when things are not going
85:59
right we can’t just say we’re weird you
86:02
know well I’m one vote out of several
86:04
and and this guy makes the budget this
86:07
is the thing you’ve got issues in the
86:09
budget right now where you’re spending
86:11
more money on a certain type of
86:13
fundraising than you are bringing in
86:15
that is negative ROI on that fundraising
86:19
line-item okay there are other ones
86:21
where you’re spending money and you’re
86:22
making a ton of ROI so what we need to
86:25
do is understand how to put those
86:28
dollars so that we get the most
86:30
effectiveness out of every dollar I use
86:33
in business I always talk about this we
86:36
guys we’ve got to make as much money as
86:37
we can every single minute of the day
86:40
and it sounds enormous ly capitalistic
86:43
but the point is is I’ve got four kids
86:45
at home you know I want to go home I
86:47
want to spend time with my kids I don’t
86:49
want to sit here for five extra hours
86:51
and not make any more money let’s just
86:53
do our job make as much money as we can
86:55
be as effective and efficient as
86:56
possible and and drive as much to the
86:59
piano as possible and then go home and
87:00
have fun with our families so so to the
87:03
poor
87:03
here is there are areas in the piano
87:06
that need to be improved that will
87:08
improve the cash flow that you’re
87:10
talking about Josh we’re now something
87:11
you have enough extra income to cover
87:15
emergencies and on top of that if I had
87:18
to change one thing in the entire budget
87:19
after this whole thing gets fixed I
87:22
would actually make a full-time chair
87:24
and I’m not talking about me at this
87:25
point I’ll hand it over to some of the
87:27
else but I would make a full-time chair
87:29
so this person can be out there
87:30
promoting liberty on a full-time basis
87:33
and really driving this party forward if
87:36
we want to be a true second party in
87:38
this country we need that that is the
87:40
next step and it can only happen once we
87:43
clean up the piano okay Mike thoughts on
87:46
budget changes or anything like that
87:49
thank you spike so I think Josh had the
87:53
advantage on this one because he has the
87:54
misfortune of currently sitting on the
87:56
ONC and probably having had to live
87:58
through more budget discussions then
88:01
Mike Mike we just had we just had our
88:03
budget meeting last weekend in my area
88:05
so you know but I’m excited for the fact
88:10
that that is an aspect of my job but
88:12
what I want to talk about because I have
88:14
not been able to sit through those with
88:17
you is a bigger concept here right so
88:21
central planning doesn’t work we already
88:24
know that that is basically our central
88:26
critique of statism itself and what’s
88:30
especially a vulnerability about
88:33
politics is that when we begin to have
88:36
to manage scarce resources the question
88:38
of how to explain it to them becomes
88:40
politicized right and all of a sudden
88:43
what we’re gonna have a faction war over
88:45
whether just gets air conditioning or
88:47
not like eventually that’s what happens
88:50
but there’s an even bigger vulnerability
88:52
than just us squabbling over resources
88:54
and having them become proxies for
88:55
internal you know struggles for social
88:58
capital is that when the governing body
89:02
begins to feel more and more pressure to
89:05
like figure out how to pay the bills
89:06
they become more and more tempted to
89:09
turn to large donors who can fix that
89:11
problem quickly and so one of the things
89:15
I can say as the chair right because
89:16
that’s a
89:17
we already know that money in politics
89:19
when you’re chasing the larger donors
89:21
sooner or later they’ve got their hooks
89:23
in you and you’re bought and paid for so
89:27
what I could say is that as the chair
89:29
one of the things you know there was
89:31
this really cool hashtag campaign on
89:33
Twitter it was called clear the lists
89:35
and this was when school was going back
89:37
and basically teachers were like they
89:39
didn’t have the money they needed for
89:40
like pencils and stuff so they all
89:42
created Amazon wish lists and they did
89:45
this clear the lists hashtag campaign to
89:47
decentralize and voluntaries the funding
89:51
the meaning of the like funding gap in
89:53
the schools right and so it was all
89:55
exciting and people would like buy these
89:56
pencils and you know notebooks and
89:58
backpacks or whatever the teachers have
90:00
put on their list and then they’d like
90:02
post so my point is I would lean into
90:05
our organizational strengths of
90:06
decentralization and appeal to that
90:09
desire and put it out there what do we
90:12
need that someone can buy right now that
90:14
would actually benefit the party so that
90:16
we don’t have to fight over these
90:18
resources so that the bigger budget
90:20
items can be handled on the resources
90:22
that we have and I think that’s one of
90:24
the best ways that the chair can help
90:28
with this problem without it turning
90:32
into you know something worse okay very
90:36
good and then the final question from
90:40
the from the followers is how do you
90:44
plan to win the hearts and minds of
90:47
libertarians and libertarian leaning
90:49
voters who get drawn in by decidedly non
90:52
libertarian candidates politicians like
90:55
Donald Trump Tulsi Gabbard and lincoln
90:58
Chafee wait what one more time how do
91:06
you plan to win the hearts and minds of
91:08
libertarians and libertarian leaning
91:10
voters who get drawn in who as of right
91:14
now are getting drawn in by decidedly
91:16
non libertarian politicians such as
91:18
Trump and Tulsi Gabbard and lincoln
91:20
Chafee what here’s the thing
91:31
I know there’s a lot of libertarians
91:32
pulling for Tulsi and I think that that
91:34
is directly because of the anti-war
91:37
message you know if if we’re gonna have
91:40
a Democrat on a debate stage debating we
91:43
want an anti-war Democrat up there
91:45
debating period plain and simple it’s
91:47
for the last four years it feels like
91:50
the anti-war left has gone to sleep so
91:53
it’s nice to see a Democratic
91:55
presidential hopeful talking about
91:58
anti-war issues and pardoning Assange
92:00
and snowed it and he’s libertarian
92:04
issues right but when it comes down to
92:06
it we’re still the more principled
92:09
option we have all of those views plus
92:12
these other ones that you support and so
92:14
you know it just comes down to that
92:16
messaging and you have to stay
92:18
consistent in your principles and you
92:20
know I don’t I don’t believe that we’re
92:23
gonna get any the the maggot Trump guys
92:25
over to our side
92:26
they are so caught up in the that that’s
92:32
you know tribalistic chest-beating team
92:35
sport politics that they just don’t care
92:37
anymore
92:38
but there’s like I said there’s 61% of
92:40
the population that didn’t vote for a
92:41
presidential candidate in 2016 you know
92:44
that’s that’s my focus those are the
92:46
people I want to know why you’re jaded
92:47
on the political system and what are you
92:49
looking for as far as the your hopes and
92:53
change for the country and I think
92:55
that’s where our best fishing ground is
92:58
okay Mike thoughts on pulling
93:01
libertarians and libertarian leaners
93:03
away from the siren song of
93:05
authoritarian politician sure so it’s
93:09
kind of I’m glad you brought that up
93:11
because I have I have a friend who is
93:17
also my stylist and so I sat in her
93:20
chair once a week and she’s always
93:22
interested in hearing about like what
93:24
I’m doing and she is a progressive
93:25
Democrat and over the months and years
93:28
she has really developed like she the
93:32
way that I analyzed kind of power it and
93:34
and what’s going on has sunken into her
93:36
and she said something really that
93:39
struck me she said you know this
93:42
impeachment trial I feel like they’re
93:43
making Trump
93:44
– a patsy it’s not that he didn’t do
93:46
corruption its that corruption didn’t
93:48
start with him and that corruption
93:51
actually goes back you know to Reagan
93:56
and beyond you know it’s a bipartisan
93:58
problem and we’re never going to get
93:59
justice from a partisan inquiry that
94:02
limits itself to Trump they’re basically
94:04
gonna package him as the the source of
94:07
the corruption and wad him up and spit
94:10
him away and then go oh look
94:12
Washington’s cleaned up now right so
94:14
where I’m going with this is that my
94:16
experience with social media shows me
94:18
that whenever you attack like the
94:19
duopoly like both of them at once you
94:22
like that is the content that
94:24
consistently goes wild and reaches
94:26
beyond libertarian spaces because you
94:28
can go in the back in the insights and
94:30
see whether it was fans or non-fans who
94:32
view that and that’s the content that
94:33
consistently reaches non fans of your
94:36
page which are potential libertarians so
94:39
I have this idea to do like I didn’t
94:41
impeach the duopoly push so we would
94:44
flip the impeachment narrative and we
94:46
would turn it like oh wait we’re not
94:48
away from Trump like you know he made
94:52
his own bed and he gets to lie in it –
94:53
right but the bed is bigger than him and
94:56
they all really need to lie in that bed
94:58
so I think we can get a lot of election
95:00
your traction out of an impeach the
95:02
duopoly hashtag campaign our candidates
95:04
can run with that let me viral in every
95:06
way you can call it all kinds of
95:08
corruption and it’s just a great way to
95:11
kind of build on the bottom unity that
95:13
we have because who doesn’t hate either
95:15
Democrats or Republicans and usually
95:18
both right so I think it’s a great way
95:21
to reach disaffected voters and provide
95:23
them with a libertarian analysis that
95:25
says hey all of these people are corrupt
95:28
and maybe you should give us a try okay
95:31
Todd thoughts on the libertarian and
95:35
libertarian leaning voters keeping them
95:38
away from the authoritarians bringing
95:39
them into the fold of libertarians sure
95:42
so first of all I love a lot of what I
95:44
just heard
95:45
I think though we need to get extremely
95:47
targeted on who we are going to target
95:51
and this is what I mean if you
95:53
understand the Pareto principle the 8020
95:55
rule you’ll understand that 80% of
95:58
the effect comes from 20% of the causes
96:02
how does that apply to voting so there
96:05
are 20% of the population right now that
96:08
will even consider voting libertarian
96:11
yet we spent all this time trying to
96:13
convince status trying to convince you
96:16
know my god trying to convince the core
96:18
experience to come over to our parties
96:20
stop it that’s not going to work let’s
96:24
focus on the 20% of people that are most
96:26
likely to become a libertarian and to
96:29
spend all of our time converting those
96:31
folks who are those folks they’re the
96:34
folks to Josh’s point that did not vote
96:36
there’s a ton of people out there that
96:39
did not vote we had to focus on two
96:40
things and I got this from a white paper
96:42
so I didn’t make it up well we had to
96:44
focus on two things we have to raise the
96:46
willingness to vote of these non voters
96:49
and we have to lower the cost of the
96:51
votes for these nine voters and if we
96:54
focus on those two things we will use
96:56
our money more effectively to drive
96:58
votes we will focus on the 20% of people
97:00
who are willing to actually consider the
97:02
party and will drive their willingness
97:04
to vote up and it’s a hundred times
97:06
easier to convert an on voter than it is
97:09
to convert an authoritarian so the
97:11
answer to your question is don’t try to
97:13
convert the authoritarian focus on the
97:15
right people and we will be a hundred
97:17
times more effective okay fair enough
97:20
well that is the end of the questions
97:24
guys and because I didn’t wasn’t able to
97:27
come up with an effective trolley
97:28
problem we are gonna move on to the
97:30
final section which is the closing
97:32
remarks I have completely forgotten who
97:35
was does anyone remember who was the
97:39
last person to anyway we’ll start with
97:42
Todd giving his closing his final
97:44
closing remarks Todd you have two
97:48
minutes to be a closer thank you so I
97:55
really appreciate being here I really
97:57
appreciate sharing the cast with it with
98:00
these folks these guys are great just to
98:03
touch back on a little bit of the
98:05
concern about me and and I it’s there
98:07
it’s a hundred percent fair criticism
98:09
about whether or not I’ve been involved
98:11
in the county
98:12
or the national scene what I will say is
98:15
guys I have 50 million impressions a
98:17
year I have 30 thousand Twitter
98:19
followers I got those folks from talking
98:21
about Liberty every day the people who
98:24
do listen to what I say know that I’m a
98:26
libertarian if you don’t please check me
98:28
out give me a call
98:30
I am accessible I have several calls
98:33
today with libertarians and prominent
98:36
members of the party I am trying to get
98:38
to know you folks and I want to get to
98:40
know you like me or not let’s get on the
98:42
phone at the end of the day this is what
98:45
it is
98:46
we’ve got some great candidates here who
98:48
understand what to do as chair if you
98:52
believe the Libertarian Party is headed
98:54
in the right direction
98:55
at the right pace with the right
98:58
trajectory there are folks that are on
99:00
the board or folks that have been
99:02
involved that you can vote for if you
99:04
believe though that a turnaround is
99:07
necessary and there’s a very specific
99:10
skill set that goes into turning around
99:12
an organization I know how to do this
99:14
I’ve done it several times I’ve done it
99:17
a business as 400 times as big as the
99:20
LMC I can do this and then I can hand it
99:24
off to the person who can take it to the
99:25
next level if you don’t want to turn
99:27
around I’m not your guy I’m gonna be
99:30
unhappy you’re gonna be unhappy don’t
99:31
vote for me please but if you are
99:34
looking for this party to be turned
99:36
around
99:36
financially be professionalized create
99:39
that core branded message and win local
99:41
elections put a full-time chair in place
99:44
and then hand it off to somebody then
99:46
I’m your guy I appreciate it
99:48
okay very good Mike your final two
99:52
minutes to close the the audience here
99:57
thanks spike so I think the first of all
100:04
we forgot to plan a closer so suddenly
100:06
if I begin to ramble I’m sorry you can
100:09
hashtag my comments wall text later okay
100:12
but I’m just gonna lean into you know
100:16
the spirit of decentralization and
100:18
bottom-up organizing because I think
100:21
it’s it can be underestimated what a
100:23
specialized actual skill
100:26
because the examples that we have most
100:29
you know if you go to management school
100:32
or any of these things you’re going to
100:33
be taught a top-down paradigm the the
100:36
ordinary world operates on top-down
100:39
central planning logic and that isn’t
100:41
what libertarianism advocates we don’t
100:43
advocate it for the political system and
100:46
our party itself is not built that way
100:49
it’s built around the concept of an
100:52
empowered individual who is autonomous
100:55
over their own freedom right
100:57
and so organizing in that context is not
101:03
easy right because you’re you’re
101:07
bringing ideas and you’re sort of like
101:10
facilitating like bringing those ideas
101:12
to life but you’re not actually telling
101:15
anybody what to do because the venue you
101:17
tell a libertarian what to do they won’t
101:18
do it right so that’s kind of like a
101:22
paradox that is not easy to like figure
101:27
out when you first start organizing it’s
101:29
it’s an acquired skill that I learned by
101:31
trial and error so I think if you’re
101:36
looking for someone who understands that
101:39
bottom-up perspective someone who has
101:41
experience facilitating and bringing big
101:44
ideas to life within the boundaries of
101:47
what that means then you need someone
101:49
who has demonstrated experience who is
101:52
deeply familiar with this party’s
101:53
culture and its bylaws and its structure
101:56
and everything else and that person is
101:59
me so I just hope that you’ll continue
102:02
to keep an open mind those of you who
102:04
are out there and still hate me and
102:07
those of you who don’t hate me thank you
102:09
for not hating me and I just hope that I
102:11
can continue to earn your respect thank
102:14
you
102:15
very good Joshua Coffee is for closers
102:19
give us your dancing to him right you’re
102:21
damn right second places you’re fired
102:24
yes look I ran last year on a platform
102:31
of promises I had no meat to point to I
102:34
had no success as 2.2 I was constantly
102:37
arguing with people I
102:39
out of taking criticism I did a lot of
102:41
things wrong I did and I spent the last
102:44
two years learning I spent the last two
102:46
years washing people who have had
102:48
successes I spent the last two years
102:50
working with campaign managers and and
102:54
candidates and the the national party in
102:57
the local party in the state party in
102:59
the platform committee and the
103:00
Operations Committee and the affiliate
103:03
Support Committee and I learned
103:04
everything I possibly could because I
103:05
was told you don’t have the experience
103:07
that we want to see in a chair of the
103:09
Libertarian Party this year I have me to
103:13
point to I can show that those plans
103:15
those promises those goals are working I
103:18
can show you the hundreds and hundreds
103:20
of people that I’ve signed up around the
103:21
country to the party that are now
103:23
working with their local and state
103:25
affiliates I can show you the over a
103:27
hundred members that I’ve got to join up
103:28
with national just since July of this of
103:32
this year I meant every single word I
103:37
said in 2018 I just didn’t I didn’t know
103:40
how to convey that message correctly and
103:42
I think that this year I have the
103:45
opportunity to do that and and I hope
103:46
that everyone will look at the stuff
103:49
that I’ve been able to accomplish and
103:50
take that into account when we go into
103:52
national convention in May in 2020 and
103:54
and that’s all I have to say I
103:56
appreciate you guys for coming out I
103:58
appreciate it spike for having us on
104:00
okay very good thank you guys again be
104:04
sure to stay I need you guys to stay
104:06
tuned because we’re just wrapping up and
104:08
I’ll talk to you during the outro thank
104:11
you again gentlemen thank you for your
104:13
time and folks thank you my amazing
104:16
lovely beautiful did you lose weight
104:19
I can tell you lost weight our viewing
104:21
audience for tuning in tonight and now
104:24
it’s time it’s up to you to decide who
104:27
was the master debater so be sure to
104:30
comment with the name of who you think
104:31
won tonight’s debate and share this
104:34
video with others over the next 24 hours
104:36
so they can watch it too and say who
104:37
they think one and we will tally the
104:40
results and then release them tomorrow
104:43
night but so we hope that you enjoyed
104:46
this next week tune in for a very
104:49
special Monday edition of my fellow
104:51
Americans
104:53
where I will be live interviewing my
104:54
next guest famous tycoon crypto
104:57
enthusiast presidential candidate and
104:58
all-around badass John McAfee if you
105:02
have a question for John let us know
105:03
here at muddy waters media and tune in
105:05
live on Monday at 2:00 p.m. Eastern to
105:08
watch me and John live right here and
105:10
then tune in on Tuesday night at 8:00
105:14
p.m. Eastern for the muddy waters of
105:16
freedom where Matt Wright and I parse
105:18
through the week’s news with the
105:20
reverence and good cheer of the sweet
105:23
autumn cherubs that we are all of that
105:25
right here
105:26
on muddy waters media also housekeeping
105:30
anyone who bought during the show the
105:32
muddied waters brand egg-timer
105:35
we will actually be sending you a
105:37
digital timer with a sticker on it same
105:39
price $49.99 this does not work so we’re
105:43
not going to send that to you and I’m
105:46
gonna get this returned but we will send
105:48
you a digital same sticker digital egg
105:51
timer $49.99 great deal can’t pass up on
105:54
it and so guys thanks again for tuning
105:57
in be sure to share this we can find out
105:59
who the true master debater is and if
106:02
you haven’t done so yet and are still
106:03
able to do so I don’t know what state
106:04
you live in be sure to sign up as a
106:06
delegate for your state party so that
106:07
you can not just vote here in comments
106:10
which ultimately achieves nothing but
106:11
actually can go to the convention and
106:13
choose the actual who will be the next
106:15
chair and who will be the next
106:16
presidential and vice presidential
106:18
candidate while you’re there you might
106:19
as well do it while you’re there guys
106:20
thanks again for tuning in we will see
106:22
you next week and god bless you
106:25
[Music]


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Spike Cohen
Spike Cohen
Local Jew. Contrarian stoic sentimentalist. Antidisestablishmentarianism. Will pet your dog.