(((My Fellow Americans))) #44: My Fellow Fakertarians with John Hudak and Kevin Shaw

(((My Fellow Americans))) #44: My Fellow Fakertarians with John Hudak and Kevin Shaw Let's face it: you're not a real libertarian unless you are regularly told that you are not a real libertarian. And my guests this week know all about the REALLY not real libertarians. Kevin Shaw and John Hudak are with Fakertarians, a group that calls out imposters in the libertarian movement. And my God, are there a lot of them. All of you, actually. None of you are real libertarians. Anywho, John and Kevin are going to talk to me about the direction of the movement, why they started Fakertarians and who is the biggest Fakertarian of all.


About This Episode


Let’s face it: you’re not a real libertarian unless you are regularly told that you are not a real libertarian. And my guests this week know all about the REALLY not real libertarians. Kevin Shaw and John Hudak are with Fakertarians, a group that calls out imposters in the libertarian movement. And my God, are there a lot of them. All of you, actually. None of you are real libertarians.

Anywho, John and Kevin are going to talk to me about the direction of the movement, why they started Fakertarians and who is the biggest Fakertarian of all.

Fakertarians Discussion Group on Facebook.

Intro & Outro Music by JoDavi.


Episode Transcript

DISCLOSURE
This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.
FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT
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and now us from beautiful Myrtle Beach
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hi you can hear me now right people can
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hear me now okay
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welcome my fellow Americans I am
03:38
literally spike Cohen thank you guys so
03:41
much for coming and for waiting for my
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drinking on this episode no more
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Canadian water we’re back in the stage
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shout out natira on Turks is momentum
05:17
and as always guys we have a very
05:18
special event coming up next week that
05:21
I’d love to tell you about it is called
05:23
demo gettin – we are electric
05:26
intersectional Boogaloo we are covering
05:28
the the Democrat debates on Tuesday and
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Wednesday of next week July 30th and
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31st at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on
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muddy waters media me and Matt Wright
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will be watching
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that amazing event which hopefully will
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all get healed by Marianne Williamson I
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will also be seeing Marianne Williamson
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tomorrow night probably going live if
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they let me we shall see
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but yeah so be sure to check that out
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next week and guys so without any
06:01
further ado guys my guests tonight are
06:03
the gatekeepers of libertarianism it is
06:06
they who determine who is and is not a
06:08
real libertarian and the answer is well
06:11
none of you are real libertarians only I
06:13
am true libertarian but but enough about
06:15
me
06:16
my fellow Americans please welcome my
06:18
guest tonight my first guest is John
06:20
hudak he is the Connecticut State
06:23
coordinator coordinated for Adam Koch
06:25
ashes 2020 presidential campaign and
06:28
Kevin Shaw is the chairman of the
06:31
Libertarian Party of San Fernando Valley
06:33
he’s the director of freedom and
06:36
philosophy at Liberty Institute of
06:38
freedom and economics and he is an
06:41
at-large representative of the
06:43
Libertarian Party of California and he’s
06:45
basically just a lazy guy who does
06:47
nothing all day long gentlemen thank you
06:48
so much for joining my fellow Americans
06:50
thanks for having us on yeah love to
06:53
have you on and of course we would be
06:56
remiss not to mention the man who
06:59
couldn’t make him tonight our fallen
07:00
comrade who was struck down and the very
07:02
prime of his life it was a tough
07:04
decision to move ahead with this episode
07:06
but we realized that it was what you
07:08
would have wanted our thoughts and
07:10
prayers go out to your loved ones and we
07:12
take this moment to remember you
07:14
Jordan Logue
07:22
[Music]
07:56
yeah I think he works late tonight
08:15
yeah
08:31
oh snap um what you mean you mean to ask
08:36
what made me a libertarian I I suppose I
08:38
was I was always I I just I I was always
08:42
a libertarian it slowly took a while for
08:45
me to become an anarchist I I had this
08:47
faith in the state up until the last
08:49
moment that somehow the right people
08:50
could get elected and good things could
08:51
get done and I maintained that optimism
08:53
late into my 20s and so finally I
08:56
realized it just wasn’t happening and
08:57
now no government at all very good stuff
09:00
and and John same same for you I mean I
09:04
actually used to be in neocon years ago
09:07
I was a big Republican growing up 2008 I
09:11
felt kind of disillusioned I mean I saw
09:13
Ron Paul on with the beats but I thought
09:14
he was kind of crazy at the time but
09:15
then after that election I kind of
09:17
looked into it a little bit more and I
09:19
was like ah maybe this guy actually like
09:20
knows what he’s talking about and then
09:22
kind of gradually became an endcap by
09:25
about 2011 yeah that’s uh that’s kind of
09:28
my timeline too and you’re way younger
09:29
than me so you’re ahead of me um I I was
09:32
in neocon as well and and then kind of
09:35
became sort of a constitutionalist
09:37
mandir kissed and then yeah I was there
09:40
I just kind of like I found myself like
09:42
more and more working my way down until
09:44
it was like wait a sec I don’t think I
09:45
want any government and that was
09:47
probably maybe about 2011 maybe like 20
09:49
ya know probably around twenty eleven
09:51
twenty because I remember I’m like okay
09:54
if our options are Mitt Romney and Obama
09:56
then I think we’re asking the wrong
09:58
question and I I think maybe we’re we’re
10:01
asking ourselves the wrong thing here
10:03
maybe we should be asking do we need any
10:05
of these people and I think maybe the
10:06
answer is no so okay so then you did
10:11
that and now so did you two start
10:14
libertarians or fake Rotarians I’m
10:17
realizing now that I don’t know the
10:19
history of fake Rotarians how did that
10:20
start so I guess I’ll take this one
10:23
exactly okay it’s actually a pretty
10:25
crazy story because it’s basically who
10:29
you wouldn’t expect started it with me
10:32
Matt Kay when you were still an endcap
10:34
really yeah he actually he was mad at
10:39
Liberty hang out one day and he made a
10:41
page I think it was called Liberty hang
10:44
out as a cancer
10:45
liberty or something like that right and
10:47
I had beginning a lot of arguments with
10:48
the Liberty hangout people over the past
10:51
few months cuz I wrote an article where
10:52
I kind of called out Justin maldo like
10:54
maybe three months before that so that
10:56
was like I think we started June 2017
10:59
okay so I saw the page was made I
11:03
started sending him screenshots of
11:04
Liberty hanging out stuff so we just
11:06
started posting them on the page and
11:07
being like hey look at this dumb stuff
11:09
they said and about maybe we brought a
11:13
few people on Joshua Smith was part of
11:16
it some others too
11:19
Kevin you came on later right yeah yeah
11:21
I came I came a little I came after
11:23
danker Terry instead okay so yeah we
11:27
switched the name to fake Rotarians
11:29
maybe two or three days after it started
11:31
and the Liberty hangout people thought
11:33
we were changing it like to hide from
11:35
them they were making posts about it
11:37
like Chris John Cox one of the people
11:39
who he’s a producer for Richard Spencer
11:40
or something like that now as any real
11:44
libertarian would be of course oh I know
11:47
he works I think he worked for David
11:48
Duke too he’s kind of he’s out there no
11:54
I know that’s what it was like oh
11:55
they’re hiding from us and and then
11:58
Augustus Invictus was on the post seemed
12:00
like Doc’s all leftist and stuff like
12:02
that so some guy made like a picture so
12:06
this guy named John Carter who likes to
12:08
block everyone he made a picture with
12:10
like they found out who a few of us were
12:11
so it was like a picture of me Matt Josh
12:14
and two other people and stuff like an
12:16
Tifa Tyrians or something I like that I
12:20
like that note to self
12:25
make make an Tifa Tyrians page I like
12:33
that that and a Nicholas or walk not
12:37
sock account those are the two pages I’m
12:39
gonna be making sense um so okay cool so
12:43
that is that is point so the mission of
12:46
fake Rotarians is obviously to find fake
12:48
libertarians in the community and to out
12:50
them what would you say is the main
12:51
purpose of that do you see it as like a
12:53
legitimate tactic to keep frauds out of
12:56
the Liberty movement are you doing it
12:57
just for Laughs or is it kind of
12:59
nation of both I’d say the main purpose
13:02
is keeping France in the Liberty
13:03
movement I mean we like to get people
13:04
laughs and all that but we feel like
13:06
there’s like a real purpose behind it
13:08
with that Kevin would would and would
13:11
you say about the same like you know
13:13
yeah it’s funny but this is about
13:15
keeping out Baker Terence oh absolutely
13:19
the the fig Rotarians page isn’t out
13:21
there to just grow its audience
13:22
otherwise it would have a bunch of
13:23
followers that were outside the Liberty
13:25
movement it’s largely targeted to other
13:26
libertarians to kind of inform them and
13:28
act as a watchdog against bad behavior
13:30
in the party right and the movement at
13:32
law right and it’s funny because you
13:33
guys like you said your reach is
13:35
somewhat limited because you’re you’re
13:36
targeting specifically libertarians but
13:39
you have an incredible engagement on
13:42
your posts and even in your group which
13:43
only has a few hundred members which
13:45
really speaks to the fact that one of
13:47
the favorite things that libertarians do
13:48
is like say that other people aren’t
13:52
libertarians the thing with your group
13:54
is that you’re actually like you’re not
13:56
just going after people with like it’s
13:58
like in a lot of other groups you two
14:00
would go after each other because John
14:01
you’re more of I guess like a right
14:03
libertarian or libertarian capitalist
14:05
and Kevin you’re more of like a
14:07
libertarian socialist and so you guys
14:09
would tell each other you’re not real
14:10
libertarians and this is more like this
14:12
is more fruitful because you’re actually
14:13
going after people that don’t believe in
14:14
the basics like self ownership and and
14:16
you know uh you know personal liberties
14:19
and things like that you’re going after
14:21
actual like people that really they’re
14:24
saying libertarian but there’s not
14:26
really anything even remotely
14:27
libertarian about what they do yeah I
14:31
mean it’s people who like Hitler and
14:32
Stalin
14:37
yeah I know exactly it’s horrible it’s
14:42
crazy because I mean there’s like I mean
14:45
there’s actual like North Korean
14:47
apologists and I guess maybe I’ve gotten
14:50
so used to the the hit the Third Reich
14:52
apologist that I’m almost jaded to that
14:54
now I’m like yeah that’s just a part of
14:56
the Liberty movement there’s people that
14:57
uh nyah Roenick Lee call themselves
14:59
libertarians and they’ll explain how
15:01
Hitler really if you think about it you
15:03
know didn’t really do that much wrong so
15:06
I guess I’m used to that but now I’m
15:07
seeing like people that are defending
15:09
jus che or whatever it’s called the the
15:11
you know the kim jeong-hoon
15:13
idiot I’m like wow this is wild stuff
15:15
man like I I don’t I don’t I don’t get
15:20
it but it’s it’s crazy to me I I wanted
15:23
to ask the biggest thing so I think most
15:28
people would say that maybe that’s not
15:32
sure would you say most people would
15:33
agree with you that Liberty hangout is
15:35
kind of a fake libertarian outlet at
15:37
this point or the are there really like
15:39
a lot of hangers on that are still
15:40
saying yeah no they’re definitely
15:41
libertarian I would say most
15:45
libertarians would agree with us is that
15:47
by this point
15:47
I mean they’ve really gone like full
15:50
Trump worship stuff like I saw them the
15:53
other day they used to be like in the
15:54
Bitcoin and stuff like that and then
15:55
from throat the thing about Bitcoin
15:57
where he didn’t like it and they were
15:59
defending that the other day they really
16:00
just go with whatever Trump says at this
16:02
point so they’re Pro Federal Reserve
16:04
Note now is that that they’re I mean
16:07
they it seemed that way I mean they
16:09
didn’t say that explicitly but but they
16:12
just go with whatever Trump says that I
16:14
feel like they’re just trying to market
16:16
to like Fox News boomers now it’s it’s
16:19
crazy and I mean I’m not so I’m not okay
16:24
so people will make fun of I’m not
16:27
someone that gets into like making fun
16:28
of people’s appearance and stuff like
16:30
that but it seems like there’s just like
16:34
so much bad blood that there’s just
16:39
people like attacking each other now and
16:41
and I would so I don’t really know that
16:44
the Liberty hangout people that much
16:46
would they always like that or did this
16:49
light just suddenly happen or like what
16:51
what is it based on like I’ve known who
16:56
they were for a while I’d say they
16:58
started off kind of constitutional
17:02
libertarian but it’s weird because they
17:05
called themselves and caps but they
17:06
still kind of made excuses for for
17:09
government I mean that’s part of the
17:10
reason we started the page but um around
17:13
the Trump stuff they really started
17:15
getting into that and I mean they right
17:17
they went after bill weld I mean
17:18
rightfully I go after bill weld – all
17:20
right right but um but then they started
17:23
to get really into the anti-immigration
17:25
stuff I don’t know if you know Jared how
17:27
is but he was one of their writers the
17:30
John Cox guy I was talking about earlier
17:31
was one of their writers he was like
17:33
there he was like their lead editor or
17:35
something like that at one point but how
17:37
how was probably the worst and he was
17:40
one of the ones we were really targeting
17:41
early on yeah I mean he would he kind of
17:45
masked it a little bit but you could
17:47
tell like he read the guy really did not
17:49
like Jews like his his posts were
17:52
seriously but um it was kind of proven
17:57
that we were right about him eventually
17:58
because when Chris Cantwell was in
18:00
prison how co-hosted his podcast with
18:02
him
18:02
oh well I mean he was already out of
18:04
Liberty hangout by that point but that’s
18:07
yeah and I mean maldo know he’s the guy
18:11
who’s in charge of it I think he’s going
18:14
more the he they did kind of like push
18:17
out like the worst elements of the
18:18
alt-right that were there like john cox
18:20
and this other guy that got kicked out
18:21
for defense literally defending Nazism
18:24
but a moldos kind of just gone like full
18:30
Trump I mean I feel like after his
18:32
girlfriend
18:32
Caitlin Bennett the Kent State gun girl
18:35
yeah yeah after she got famous he just
18:39
kind of started appealing to like the
18:41
conservative crowd and not writing
18:42
anything more about libertarian because
18:44
their I mean I’m sure part of it and I
18:47
think uh stefan molyneux it’s a similar
18:49
thing oh yeah I can just see in my and I
18:52
don’t have nearly the reach but I can
18:54
see like on our page and on our on just
18:57
my personal profile if I put something
19:01
out that’s like this kind of you know
19:03
more principled Liberty Liberty stance
19:06
or getting into you know philosophical
19:08
stuff about proper Tyrion is
19:09
everything’s like that it gets some
19:11
engagement and some discussion or
19:12
whatever if I put something that you
19:14
know makes fun of the left huge
19:16
engagement right like just you know
19:18
through the roof or if I even put up
19:20
something that makes fun of the right
19:22
I’ll get slightly less engagement but
19:25
still big engagement like you get it’s
19:26
like if you and so we found that like we
19:29
do with this mix of you know trigger the
19:31
left trigger the right and then actually
19:33
put something libertarian in there
19:35
because when we were just trying to be
19:36
like just doing nothing but
19:39
you know that you know pushing
19:41
libertarian orthodoxy I guess for lack
19:44
of a better word it wasn’t getting the
19:45
engagement I’m sure if you’re on Twitter
19:47
and you know you just put up like hey
19:50
commies come and take your my guns and
19:52
you know fire a gun you’ve got like you
19:54
said you got every Republican boomer in
19:56
the world sharing that and going though
19:57
the futures great you know in all caps
19:59
the future is great look at these kids
20:01
you know Trump 2020 and that so I guess
20:05
it makes more money and I’ve noticed
20:06
Mullen you like overtime has more and
20:10
more I mean do you think that’s he’s
20:12
actually becoming a Nazi or do you think
20:14
that’s just because he gets he’s getting
20:16
pretty close to gone I forget what he
20:18
said the other week but he was saying
20:19
something about how he wondered if
20:21
Jeffrey Epstein molested any Jewish
20:24
girls or something like that I’m
20:25
paraphrasing but it was it was something
20:27
along those lines like where he was
20:29
insinuating that he wouldn’t because
20:31
he’s just out to get the white people
20:32
cuz that’s what matters right like if
20:35
you hear someone’s rape a bunch of
20:37
little kids on a private island and
20:38
tortured them you want to make sure they
20:40
weren’t all Gentiles that’s like a big
20:42
that’s a big deal right guys that’s I
20:45
don’t get it I don’t get it um so at
20:51
this point I guess we can just go
20:53
through different groups and people that
20:55
are being accused of faker terian ISM
20:58
and you can tell me what you think the
21:00
first one being the one that I get the
21:02
most pushback on if we share something
21:04
from them or tag one of their members or
21:07
whatever and you even saw it in my just
21:09
god forbid I put up a cover photo in my
21:11
next episode um is the Libertarian Party
21:15
meets his caucus I’m saying that right
21:18
right Mises yeah um so I first when I
21:23
first heard of the Mises caucus it was
21:24
when Josh Smith was running for chair
21:27
libertarian party chair and people were
21:29
like well he’s with the Mises caucus and
21:31
they’re a bunch of alt-right Nazis and
21:33
I’m like I knew that Ludwig von Mises
21:37
was not definitely wouldn’t been
21:39
considered an alt right Nazi and so I’m
21:40
like all right well let me look into
21:42
this so I joined the libertarian party
21:44
Mises caucus group I think in like 2017
21:48
beginning of 2018 something like that
21:50
whatever his run was same same timeframe
21:53
and because I tend to join groups when I
21:56
think that they might potentially pose
21:58
an existential threat to me so I’m in a
22:00
bunch of different like group said I’m
22:02
not sure why they’d let someone with a
22:03
last name coming in but uh but I you
22:06
know I’ve been on the libertarian at the
22:08
the Mises caucus group since whenever it
22:12
was 2017-2018 I’ve not really seen
22:15
all right stuff I’ve seen some people
22:19
that defend immigration controls and
22:21
I’ve seen some people that maybe defend
22:25
this or that but I’m not seeing this
22:27
like I’m certainly not seeing all right
22:28
and I’m not even seeing like you know
22:31
the a lot of times the the immigration
22:33
stuff is more like economic things than
22:35
like we have to preserve our people or
22:37
culture or whatever why would you say
22:40
and I’d like to get both of your points
22:42
of view because you’re a John you’re a
22:44
member and Kevin you’re not why there’s
22:47
this like why that reputation came from
22:50
where it even came from yes I think that
22:55
first um so I actually I joined the
22:58
group when it first started just to see
23:00
what was going on in there cuz I
23:02
actually like for running fake Rotarians
23:03
and all that I was like oh I’m wonder if
23:05
there’s gonna be small writers in here
23:07
like right maybe some screenshots or
23:09
something like that but um I kind of
23:12
realized early on that some some of alt
23:14
writers did join it first cuz they
23:16
probably thought the same thing like oh
23:17
this is a place for me right but I
23:20
looked at the leadership and I was like
23:21
these aren’t all right like these are
23:24
people that I see liking my fake
23:25
Rotarians posts about attacking me all
23:27
right like I don’t know why they get
23:33
they get those accusations I mean it
23:35
maybe there’s a few bad apples here and
23:37
there but I mean they actually they
23:39
actually made me a moderator of the
23:41
group right
23:42
and I I go through some of the requests
23:45
sometimes if I see like oh it’s like an
23:48
obvious halt right or I’ll just decline
23:49
it or we’ve had like people that I’ve
23:51
gotten kicked out of the group before
23:53
because they’re it’s really not what
23:55
they’re about I mean we’d there’s a poll
23:56
in the group maybe like a year ago and
23:58
it was like overwhelmingly in favor of
24:00
abolishing ice yeah that’s what I mean
24:02
yeah yeah yeah and just Josh is just
24:06
open borders guy like the announcement
24:08
he just put out right now was talking
24:09
about like like like the camps and stuff
24:13
like that and how terrible they are and
24:15
how to you like what was it
24:18
blaming Biden for deportations and stuff
24:20
like that so I mean I feel like some of
24:23
it is just push back against the because
24:26
I mean it’s I’d say it’s mostly
24:27
anarchists a lot of like Austrian
24:31
economics Rothbard Ian types are in the
24:33
group and I feel like a lot of the the
24:36
pragmatic types just really aren’t a fan
24:39
of that that’s a good point Kevin do you
24:42
think the same thing or you have a
24:43
different perspective on not at all no I
24:46
mean with respect to everybody involved
24:48
no I mean I can tell you a little bit
24:49
about where Mises caucus gets some of
24:50
its reputation and this is somewhat the
24:52
problem with politics in general lining
24:55
yourself up with a group always gets you
24:57
painted with the worst behaviors of the
24:58
people in that group I think largely
25:00
because of entities like Liberty hang
25:03
out you get a sort of element in the
25:04
Libertarian Party that’s going to
25:05
gravitate to whatever they perceive is
25:07
the you know the right where’s the right
25:08
that’s where I’m going
25:09
and so the Mises caucus through no fault
25:11
of their own kind of got some really
25:13
shitty characters man they got some very
25:14
outwardly fascist Nazi sort of
25:17
characters and that’s where it got its
25:18
reputation and and I’m not saying they
25:20
deserve it because there’s a lot of
25:21
people in this group – I respect John he
25:24
– Joshua Smith others people in there
25:25
who do charity work I mean I love a lot
25:27
of members of the Mises caucus and I
25:29
think where it’s due they’ve done a
25:32
really good job of holding their members
25:33
accountable and kicking people out who
25:34
don’t adhere to their values
25:37
um and I you know I’m a member of a
25:39
caucus I’m a member of the libertarian
25:40
socialist caucus which also has some
25:41
characters who outwardly speak in a way
25:43
I don’t think represents libertarian
25:45
values and it’s groups like fake
25:46
Rotarians that have to hold both the
25:48
left and the right accountable for those
25:50
things but see I meet Mises caucus is
25:52
largely a good organization I’d say but
25:54
they have a battle with with
25:56
infiltration you know people who aren’t
25:57
necessarily libertarians using their
25:59
flag people that are okay well this this
26:02
represents for lack of a better word the
26:04
right part well this the camera’s aroma
26:07
at the right part of Liberty you know
26:09
right right libertarians right-wing
26:11
libertarianism this must be a home for
26:13
me but like yeah but I mean like I said
26:15
like like John said anytime there’s
26:17
discussion about immigration in that
26:19
there’s maybe I would and I haven’t done
26:22
any kind of scientific polling but I’d
26:24
say about 2/3 to 3/4 of the people are
26:27
abolish ice you know open borders
26:30
privatized borders whatever like you
26:32
know end government control of
26:34
immigration and then you’ll have that
26:37
other third court or whatever that are
26:40
saying well we need some controls but
26:42
again it’s usually like economic
26:43
arguments I don’t believe in maybe I’m
26:46
maybe I’m not forget I’m not remembering
26:47
but if it did happen it wasn’t often
26:49
someone that was just straight out like
26:52
no we need to stop immigration or you
26:54
know slow it because of our culture and
26:55
you know these are people that can’t you
26:58
know we can’t have a libertarian society
27:00
with you know brown people or you know
27:02
whatever that all right talking points
27:04
about supposed libertarianism are so
27:07
Kevin you think it’s more that there are
27:09
just some crappy people that gravitate
27:12
towards that and that kind of gives the
27:14
the broader it kind of tars the whole
27:16
the whole thing like you said similar to
27:18
what happens in like the socialist
27:20
caucus yeah there’s an overlap in the
27:22
economic interests of white nationalists
27:24
and an caps that doesn’t mean all in
27:26
caps are white nationalist it means that
27:27
they might share some common principles
27:29
and for that reason we have to be
27:31
careful in in painting with the broad
27:32
brush a lot of my comrades think that
27:34
you know the Mises caucus is evil it’s
27:35
the alt-right pipeline I’m not convinced
27:37
of that because I’ve seen a lot of good
27:39
souls in there and so I view them as
27:40
kind of our counterpart our ancap
27:42
counterpart and the libertarian movement
27:45
that’s interesting no you said that some
27:48
of the goals of white nationalists and
27:51
and caps overlap can you give a couple
27:53
examples of that well in caps are
27:56
notorious defenders of free speech which
27:58
is a good thing and a bad thing that you
27:59
know means that often they find
28:01
themselves defending I’m you know bad
28:03
character here’s there’s the belief in
28:06
the freedom to segregate which is very
28:08
unpopular with folks like myself and my
28:10
comrades on the left like and caps of
28:12
course it’s it’s ideologically sound to
28:14
say I respect an individual’s right to
28:16
self-segregate and even go form like a
28:18
white nationalist covenant community so
28:20
to speak okay okay but like that’s
28:22
that’s not that’s not a popular idea
28:24
among my friends on the left and
28:25
rightfully so I don’t think that that’s
28:27
going to get society where it needs to
28:28
go but so I mean and that’s why you kind
28:31
of just just because people will defend
28:33
ideas which lead to awful things
28:34
sometimes you get this feeling that
28:36
they’re all bad people fair enough yeah
28:38
I mean John you probably agree with me
28:40
on this that I support someone’s freedom
28:44
to be a racist asshole and actually I’d
28:49
rather know that they are I don’t want
28:51
them to you know my wife’s black eye I
28:53
don’t want if I go into a place and that
28:55
person doesn’t like the fact that my you
28:58
know we’re in an interracial
28:58
relationship and I’m Jewish or whatever
29:01
whatever thing they don’t like about me
29:02
I’d rather they say no sorry we don’t
29:04
want to serve your kind here so I go
29:05
okay I’ll never give you a penny again
29:07
and I’ll let others know that too so
29:10
that you can you know rely entirely on
29:13
people that agree with that to keep your
29:14
business afloat
29:15
and if you can good for you but if not
29:17
you know the rest of us are gonna find
29:19
people that are okay with you know not
29:22
all of us looking a certain way right
29:24
like I mean that’s I mean absolutely
29:26
like they have the freedom to do it but
29:28
I wanna call I have the right in front
29:31
ad so that he acts correct and to add to
29:33
that those people aren’t libertarians
29:34
you have every right to be a racist
29:35
asshole but don’t do it under my banner
29:37
don’t come to my party acting like a
29:39
segregationist and tell me that you’re
29:41
doing so in the name of libertarianism
29:42
yeah yeah I it’s you know I’ve heard it
29:48
referred to as thin libertarianism I
29:50
think it’s hard to argue you’re you’re
29:54
it’s hard to argue you’re a libertarian
29:55
but also like you want people of
30:00
different certain colors to stay away
30:01
like it isn’t isn’t racism the worst
30:05
form of collectivism to deny the
30:06
individual his cognitive ability his his
30:08
personal achievements and to color him
30:10
only with his ancestry to color him only
30:12
with his genealogy like I think that’s
30:14
the worst form of collectivism and a
30:15
full denial of libertarian philosophy
30:16
yeah
30:17
and of all people who said the first
30:20
time I actually heard that said about
30:21
racism being the worst form of
30:23
collectivism ironically is Ron Paul who
30:25
I am often told is the emperor of the
30:30
libertarian – alright pipeline for some
30:33
reason um but yeah no I agree with you a
30:35
hundred percent on that um and I have no
30:40
segue for this I’m gonna plug this
30:41
because like I said an appropriate
30:42
moment anchor is the easiest way to make
30:44
a podcast guys if you’re looking to make
30:45
a podcast thank you
30:47
everything you need in one place for
30:48
free which you can use right from your
30:49
phone or a computer
30:50
they have creation tools that allow you
30:52
to record and edit your podcast so it
30:55
sounds great they’ll distribute your
30:56
podcast for you so it could be heard
30:58
everywhere including Spotify Apple
31:00
podcast Google podcast them anymore and
31:02
you can easily make money from your
31:04
podcast with no minimum listenership be
31:06
sure to download the anchor app or go to
31:08
anchored FM to get started if you want
31:11
to make a podcast we actually use that
31:13
and it works very well so now that my
31:16
plug is done now okay so we’ve got the
31:19
mice the Mises caucus we’re kind of I
31:21
guess on the same page with that there
31:23
are definitely fake Rotarians on the
31:25
left that we talked about earlier um
31:27
I’ve also heard not submit so much as
31:31
with the the Mises caucus but I have
31:33
heard with um people say with the
31:36
libertarian social caucus and the
31:38
socialist caucus and the libertarian
31:40
party
31:41
audacious caucus that you know those are
31:45
if there’s a if there’s a libertarian –
31:47
alright pipeline that’s the
31:49
libertarianism to communism pipeline
31:54
Kevin you’re actually in the socialist
31:56
caucus i-i’ve I’m not in any socialist
31:59
caucus groups but I think I am in the
32:00
audacious caucus group and I have again
32:05
same thing as with the meeska I haven’t
32:07
seen a lot of like communism I’ve seen a
32:09
lot of concepts of libertarianism that I
32:12
personally don’t agree with like ideas
32:15
about ownership of land and things like
32:17
that that I don’t agree with but it’s
32:19
not so far as for me to say that’s not
32:21
libertarianism and it certainly isn’t
32:22
far enough for me to say like oh that’s
32:24
you know they’re communists they want to
32:26
you know collectivise my property but do
32:30
you think that that’s kind of a similar
32:31
thing as the Mises caucus where they’re
32:33
just bad characters that give it a bad
32:35
name absolutely the worst people to come
32:39
to our movement we’re also unfortunately
32:41
the loudest and for you know but over
32:43
time we’ve come to hold them accountable
32:44
as well well what makes me sad is the
32:46
story of the live stock caucuses again
32:48
the story of the worst of us it’s the
32:49
story of the assholes but what you don’t
32:51
see is the really good stuff that
32:52
they’re doing I’ve seen a very small
32:54
group with far less resources than Mises
32:56
undertake cross state efforts to help
32:58
people to do mutual aid to actually
33:00
demonstrate the value of our philosophy
33:02
right there’s a lot of really good cats
33:03
in the lips ah caucus and I think
33:04
there’s a lot of good potential there to
33:06
bring decent lefties out there in the in
33:09
the mainstream political movement closer
33:11
to libertarianism so no I think they’re
33:14
I think they’re good people and I think
33:15
they’re valuable to the party yeah John
33:17
and I I’d assume you kind of think the
33:19
same or you have a different perspective
33:20
on that I mean yeah they’re good there’s
33:24
some good people in there and then there
33:26
are the ex all’s that kind of run it for
33:27
the rest of them right I mean if there’s
33:28
if it’s just the people that are just
33:30
like okay like I want to just have my I
33:33
want to have my own commune or something
33:35
like that like that that’s totally fine
33:37
right I don’t I don’t I wouldn’t do it
33:39
myself but Who am I to tell them how to
33:41
live yeah
33:41
but like with the Matt K types I mean
33:44
he’s he’s actually gone now yeah cuz
33:46
he’s not even he doesn’t even claim to
33:48
be a libertarian anymore right like he’s
33:49
no he’s he’s gone full-on caught me I
33:52
said this boy yeah but I mean he was
33:55
doing the whole like thing about killing
33:56
landlords and stuff like that like yeah
33:59
he’s yeah and he’s he’s actually one of
34:02
those North Korean like support types
34:05
that you were talking yeah yeah like
34:06
like anything that’s bad about Stalin in
34:08
North Korea is just propaganda that’s
34:11
like his viewpoint ya know the kulaks
34:13
deserved it
34:14
yeah no III it’s and then there’s the
34:17
Benjamin
34:18
strike or something like that oh yeah
34:21
yeah I think they’re they’re friends I
34:24
don’t I don’t I know that the federal
34:29
government the US government does
34:31
propaganda about other countries I get
34:34
it like but I don’t think you can
34:37
objectively look at North Korea and go
34:41
yes that’s something I’m gonna defend
34:44
today I I don’t know I I don’t I don’t
34:47
Kevin you’re a socialist is that that’s
34:49
that’s not your socialist dream right
34:50
like that’s I have no intention of
34:53
taking your toothbrush which I mean
34:57
North has taken people’s toothbrushes
34:58
like that’s well yeah you should see the
35:01
sort of fighting that goes on behind the
35:02
scenes in our behind closed doors with
35:04
us it drives us nuts yeah we’re
35:06
anarchists we don’t favor using the
35:07
state to take anybody’s anything we
35:09
favor the abolition of the state and
35:10
maybe is somewhat unorthodox economic
35:12
arrangement but
35:13
and it tends to be bottom up we want to
35:15
organize workers we want to see that
35:16
wealth is distributed equitably we want
35:18
to see the people see the fruits of
35:20
their labor okay like labor should own
35:21
itself it shouldn’t be that somebody
35:22
gains seventy percent of what you
35:24
produce that doesn’t mean we have to
35:26
take anything from you means we can
35:27
demonstrate you already see businesses
35:29
starting up all over the place that
35:30
organize along these these are flaws
35:32
exactly right right yeah we’re voluntary
35:35
that’s why I think there’s a lot of
35:36
potential for friendship with with and
35:39
caps there’s so many people in the ancap
35:40
side you say there’s no such thing as a
35:42
lib sock
35:42
they don’t exist and Lib socks are
35:44
likewise all end caps are authoritarians
35:45
they’re just talking past each other but
35:47
the truth is both of us want the state
35:48
gone both of us wants to experiment with
35:51
with our own economic models so why not
35:53
help each other achieve that and leave
35:54
each other to our own devices
35:55
isn’t that the most libertarian thing to
35:57
do right and this was something so I
35:59
used to be one of those people I would
36:00
say I you know there’s no such thing as
36:02
the lib sock and I thought you know what
36:03
don’t do this because you used to be a
36:04
Republican that used to say you know
36:06
there’s no such thing as a good Democrat
36:07
stop and so I’ve reached out to people
36:10
and you were one of them like and I
36:12
thought let me just hear what they have
36:13
to say they can’t they can’t take my
36:15
toothbrush from the Internet so let me
36:17
just you know talk to them and see and
36:19
and the more I talk to them I’m like
36:21
okay I don’t agree with everything but I
36:24
also I realize something in that is in
36:26
those discussions we have a federal
36:29
government that is growing by leaps and
36:32
bounds murdering people around the world
36:34
murdering people here putting people in
36:37
cages our government is growing at you
36:39
know not exponentially but it seems like
36:41
exponentially steadily growing around
36:44
the world statism is still a thing all
36:47
governments are growing the vast
36:50
majority of people haven’t even been
36:51
exposed to anything even resembling the
36:53
Liberty discussion it seems like for me
36:56
and you to be arguing about what a post
37:00
state society is gonna look at and look
37:03
like in terms of things like you know
37:05
the sticky Nate the stickiness of
37:08
property ownership or whether you can
37:10
own land or not or you know the you know
37:15
the subjective theory of value versus
37:18
the labor theory about like it’s it’s
37:21
these are good discussions that have but
37:23
it seems like if we agree on the vast
37:25
majority of it
37:26
I’m when we are completely losing on all
37:29
fronts in terms of of anyone like you
37:31
know of libertarianism actually
37:33
happening anywhere why would we not
37:35
focus on like you said actually doing
37:37
things and demonstrating the answer to
37:39
that question without government who
37:40
would do X and say well the answer is US
37:44
will do those things why would we not
37:46
focus on that and then worry about what
37:49
that post state economy’s gonna look
37:51
like later right like I mean why would
37:53
we continue that certainly and I would I
37:56
would go so far as to argue multiple
37:58
different models of economy are gonna be
38:00
necessary post state we’re gonna have to
38:02
see what best serves mankind it’s all
38:03
theory right now none of this has ever
38:04
been done and caps and and Lib socks
38:06
equal you’re talking about utopias we’re
38:08
talking about ideas that have never
38:10
truly been experimented with so I think
38:14
everybody should have a chance to give
38:15
it a go
38:15
John but what do you think of that with
38:18
the idea cuz I tended to lean more
38:21
towards that that a freed market isn’t
38:24
gonna look like any specific thing what
38:26
do you think of that yeah there’s
38:28
definitely gonna be pockets of different
38:29
things I mean as long as like the the
38:32
and sock or and Kham Kham you and like
38:34
leaves the rest of us alone like I’m
38:36
fine with it but if they’re I mean if
38:38
they’re like breaking into my house or
38:40
saying I can’t read something or killing
38:43
me if I’m a landlord like that’s when I
38:44
have the issue but it leave you alone
38:46
where are you gonna get all your music
38:48
in your art bro okay that was the other
38:51
thing so one thing that appealed to me
38:53
with with Lib socks was that I see talk
38:59
about charity and things like that
39:02
across the de libertarian spectrum like
39:04
that’s a big part of what we’re saying
39:06
is that charity is going to you know you
39:10
know take care of a lot of the problems
39:12
that that we worry about post government
39:14
um a charity and mutual aid and people
39:16
helping each other and so forth it seems
39:18
to me that libertarian socialists their
39:22
primary concern is the poor and the
39:28
least off among us that seems to be like
39:31
their first second and third concerns
39:33
and I have a respect for that because as
39:36
someone who former business owner avid
39:39
capitalist
39:40
I I’m very much like that’s a place that
39:46
only until recently that wasn’t where my
39:48
head was and seeing people that are
39:50
there to answer the question without
39:52
government who’s going to take care of
39:54
the poor the answer to that is people
39:56
who are primarily concerned about the
39:57
poor are going to be taking care of the
39:59
poor and so yeah I do think we need
40:01
people who think that way that they’re
40:04
their biggest concern isn’t necessarily
40:07
you know how prosperous you know you can
40:12
get as much as that bottom rung how well
40:15
they’re taking care of anyway that’s
40:16
just my personal opinion I you’re
40:19
absolutely right that is that is your
40:21
perception is correct we do very much
40:23
care for those who are not cared for we
40:24
care for those who who fall through the
40:25
cracks I myself spent a good portion of
40:27
my life homeless and the government
40:29
didn’t do anything to help me and voting
40:30
for her minimum wage increases didn’t do
40:32
anything to help me and I’ll tell you I
40:33
recognize that nobody’s going to do
40:35
something if I don’t do something and
40:37
that’s why I’m in this party and that’s
40:38
why I’m an activism my comrades on the
40:40
Left likewise they recognize that the
40:42
government is not the vehicle for
40:43
achieving what we want they’re not going
40:45
to help poor people if we want to do
40:46
something we have to take action
40:47
ourselves which i think is a common
40:49
principle with my friends on the right
40:50
right yeah exactly exactly so we have so
40:55
many comments I don’t even know where I
40:58
don’t even know where to come how many
41:01
of them are anti-semitic that’s a good
41:04
question um I uh uh surprisingly none
41:12
yet yeah I see one from Dan Posner my
41:18
comrade and you know what he’s
41:19
correcting me lip sock society’s most
41:21
certainly exists I can only assume he’s
41:22
talking about the Zapatistas perhaps
41:24
which yeah that’s true they are kind of
41:26
a lip sock Society so he’s right there
41:28
there are experiments going but they’re
41:30
constantly defending themselves from
41:31
governments right yeah no no santi
41:36
anti-semitism here that is uh that’s a I
41:40
first possibly um so so so I one thing I
41:47
wanted to talk about and I have
41:48
intentionally stayed away from this
41:50
because it looked like a gigantic
41:54
dumpster fire that people were pouring
41:57
every kind of flammable liquid on it and
42:00
you know rocket propellant and
42:02
everything else and so now I’m gonna go
42:05
live and talk about it because that’s
42:06
probably the best way to deal with it um
42:08
and you guys have touched on it Benjamin
42:10
the leader letter I don’t know how to
42:13
think it’s Leonard yeah it’s that’s how
42:16
I how I saw it but I could be wrong what
42:19
the hell was that all about
42:20
I mean what’s actually interesting is
42:23
that we I didn’t really do much work on
42:26
that whole investigation and Kevin
42:27
didn’t either do we have I’d say we have
42:29
like six or seven active admins on the
42:32
page some of them kind of stay behind
42:33
the scenes right but I mean we’ve had
42:37
we’ve had sources and stuff like that
42:39
that they’ve kind of provided us with
42:41
some stuff some of the recordings that
42:44
you might have heard yeah um yeah the
42:47
guys I don’t know I mean it’s not it’s
42:51
not even like even if someone was making
42:54
up a story about him or something like
42:55
that like these are the guys own words I
42:57
mean it’s it’s it’s screenshots of his
43:00
posts its recordings of his calls or I
43:02
don’t know if it’s a call or what it was
43:04
but it was recordings of him and I mean
43:07
he’s to say I’m talking about like
43:09
bodies and trash bags on the street
43:12
election night and I mean he kind of
43:14
it’s weird like he doesn’t deny it he
43:17
kind of act like he’s joking sometimes
43:19
and then he was saying something about
43:21
how one of the recordings was under
43:23
duress but he said he was joking about
43:25
it before so I I don’t know I don’t know
43:28
wondered like someone else someone was
43:29
forcing him to say those things he
43:31
didn’t elaborate this was just an excuse
43:34
he used after Josh like brought the
43:37
motion to censor him forbid censure
43:39
sorry people get down when mixed up for
43:41
being haniss for being for being handed
43:46
wonderful so idiot I’m one of the
43:50
lefties that he intends to bag up and
43:51
put on yeah and I think this is one of
43:54
this is one of those situations where
43:55
look the Libertarian Party pretty much
43:57
stood up loudly and said they weren’t
43:58
having what Matt Kay was doing and I
44:00
appreciate that now it’s time to do it
44:01
again if somebody’s gonna call for
44:03
violence like when he called the black
44:04
bloc you know he was gonna call for
44:05
violence at the at the convention nobody
44:07
was having that
44:08
they thought that wasn’t very
44:08
libertarian why then do we allow literal
44:10
threats of death to a pretty small
44:13
minority in the party let’s be real
44:14
that’s not called for yeah no they got
44:19
talked about beating up anti-war
44:20
activists too that was one of the
44:22
recordings there was something about
44:23
like those tall sees supporting like a
44:27
slurs beat him up or it was I’m
44:31
paraphrasing but there was something
44:32
about violence against antigen and I
44:34
know some of those tulsi supporting
44:36
anti-war activists and they’re good ass
44:38
people and you’ll have to come
44:39
through me you want to bag up some
44:40
bodies paste it to Batman don’t let
44:43
this guy run for president yeah that’s
44:44
it that’s what I was gonna say he’s
44:46
running for president like that I don’t
44:48
know which I mean I’m not an odds
44:51
handicapper but probably not the best
44:55
odds of winning the presidency probably
44:58
the guy’s gonna get like three votes in
45:00
the primary I mean that convention or
45:01
something like that but still like what
45:03
if he goes on CNN is like a libertarian
45:05
party candidate or something like that I
45:07
mean that would that would not look good
45:09
that would definitely buttress the the
45:11
common pot so when I tell people I’m a
45:13
libertarian I get one of three responses
45:16
the vast majority of the time I get like
45:18
oh you guys are kind of like Republicans
45:20
but you like weed and I’m like not even
45:22
remotely but okay and then some people
45:24
will be like oh you’re the people who
45:26
you know they’ll say like oh you’re
45:28
Democrats who like guns or you’re those
45:30
like crazy people who want everyone to
45:33
be you know on the streets or whatever
45:34
but like for the most part people like
45:36
oh yeah you’re like Republicans but you
45:38
like weed and I’m like oh how could you
45:39
ever think that maybe it’s cuz we keep
45:41
running Republicans who like weed for
45:44
president but so now you got a guy who’s
45:49
gonna kill anti-war activists and is I
45:52
mean again I have not really engaged it
45:56
but what little I’ve just kind of seen
45:58
on my feed has looked like a really
46:01
angry Trump supporter I don’t I don’t
46:03
know that I’m not saying he’s a trump
46:05
supporter but like though those are the
46:06
words that I see from like really really
46:08
angry
46:09
Republicans yeah I mean it’s hard to pin
46:12
down his views sometimes I’ve seen some
46:14
stuff like you can kind out you kind of
46:16
got a look at the people he attacks to
46:18
kind of figure out what his views are I
46:19
know he attacks people who were like he
46:21
views
46:21
overly anti-war and he definitely
46:23
attacks open borders people a lot I
46:25
don’t know I don’t know what he said
46:27
specifically on Trump I mean if if that
46:30
comment that comment he had about
46:31
blowing up all the conventions I mean it
46:33
included the RNC so I don’t know if he’s
46:35
a huge Trump fan there right right yeah
46:37
no and I wasn’t saying he was but I’m
46:39
just saying like some of the rhetoric is
46:40
like like it sounds like when a Boomer
46:43
snaps and forgets that the Internet is
46:45
forever and that you know now your
46:48
grandkids are gonna see you you know
46:50
saying this crit and it’ll be like wait
46:51
I did revolution and kill all the
46:53
hippies or whatever um yeah I don’t I I
46:56
don’t get I saw he was running for
46:58
president I saw he was threatening and
46:59
then I saw like something about domestic
47:01
abuse and I was it was enough where I
47:03
was like yeah I’m gonna not really delve
47:05
into this but he’s like like Kevin like
47:07
you said I mean he’s personally attacked
47:08
people and like he’s been like I know
47:11
Desiree Lindsey was someone that he was
47:13
going after like really hard and like
47:15
threatening her and her husband and I
47:16
mean that’s does anyone know what is the
47:19
status of like actually having him
47:21
removed from the party or censured or
47:22
whatever I do not believe the motion
47:26
passed no the the National motion failed
47:30
pretty handily I mean it really didn’t
47:32
have that much support which was kind of
47:34
a bummer I do think the Texas party is
47:36
working on something I don’t have
47:38
details there or someone why if someone
47:39
who’s watching this knows about it just
47:41
say something in the comments yeah yeah
47:43
cuz I think the local I think the local
47:44
party did something to we’re like I know
47:46
I’m pretty sure he ran for something in
47:50
a recent election cycle and like for
47:53
like a primary for the Libertarian Party
47:55
and like none of the above being in the
47:57
primary or something like that yeah I
48:00
mean I don’t I think I’m less concerned
48:03
about his impact on the party as I am
48:06
about him like hurting someone you know
48:09
like someone getting no even himself
48:10
like someone getting hurt instead of
48:13
like someone making sure this guy is
48:14
okay and like getting help that he needs
48:17
or something like that again I know very
48:19
very little about him so I mean if you
48:21
end up watching this I hope that I hope
48:23
that you find some peace and and and and
48:25
and and get better because it sounds
48:27
like you you’re probably the one person
48:29
who’s probably the most tortured by this
48:31
so hopefully you know that that would be
48:33
what I would say we have a question from
48:35
Oh kiss my bass on YouTube I think I’m
48:39
saying that right yeah
48:41
who asked do you think the Libertarian
48:43
Party is controlled opposition John what
48:45
do you think about that I mean no I mean
48:49
I think there’s a lot of well-meaning
48:51
people I do think it’s kind of a little
48:56
bit of a dumpster fire right now the
48:57
kind of Frank with it but I mean the
49:00
people mean well I I just don’t think
49:03
it’s been that effective right now I
49:05
think we can turn that around but we’ll
49:07
see okay Kevin what do you think I’m
49:11
proud of the party I’m proud of the
49:13
things that’s accomplished and I think
49:14
the reason we see these problems is
49:16
because as we see in the Mises caucus as
49:18
we see in the Lib saw caucus we allow
49:20
the worst of us to speak for all of us
49:22
and because we’re so libertarian were
49:23
reluctant to take any disciplinary
49:25
action reluctant to do anything I think
49:27
the rules authority some and as a result
49:29
we let these people walk all over us we
49:31
let these people fly our flags and say
49:33
disdainful things and we do nothing to
49:35
stop it and that’s the problem once we
49:37
stop that once we stand up to the
49:38
bullies in our party once we grow a
49:40
spine and say hey that’s not
49:41
libertarianism you don’t get to call
49:43
that libertarianism get the out
49:44
once we start doing that things are
49:46
gonna turn around I’m optimistic about
49:47
the trajectory man we got this new blood
49:49
we got all these young people moving
49:51
into party leadership and taking over
49:53
rules of responsibility I think in the
49:55
next 10 years you’re gonna see a whole
49:56
different LP man yeah I I think it’s an
50:00
interesting paradox in libertarianism
50:03
that because we tend to be like okay
50:06
well you know do your thing man it lets
50:08
in people who will say insane things and
50:11
we kind of go well you know I respect it
50:16
I respectfully disagree but you know you
50:18
could do your thing but I do think that
50:19
there’s a line where it’s like obviously
50:22
promoting direct violence against people
50:24
that’s that’s a line regardless of
50:26
political ideology or whatever if you’re
50:28
not if it’s not defensive violence
50:30
anything other than that is I think
50:32
unacceptable but I think there are other
50:33
lines even before that if you’re
50:35
promoting you know people being forced
50:38
into bad situations or people being you
50:41
know harmed I think that you even
50:44
economically harm and things like that
50:46
punishment by the state and things like
50:48
that I
50:49
think there’s a line where you can say
50:50
yeah you have the right to say that but
50:53
we don’t want to associate with those
50:57
thoughts and if those are really what
50:58
you think we don’t want to associate
50:59
with you because we’re already a very
51:01
small somewhat fringe movement to begin
51:04
with if someone glances over and they’re
51:06
like oh pedophilia and Nazism and yeah
51:11
no okay no no nevermind
51:13
thanks though um I think that it you
51:16
know you’re it’s it’s hurting things by
51:18
it by doing that right like I mean
51:20
that’s that’s not a good look
51:22
totally so I have I have a question
51:26
about um why you guys think the Liberty
51:31
movement isn’t more popular like why is
51:35
it almost depressingly unpopular like
51:38
why is it that obviously some of it is
51:41
government control of of you know of the
51:44
narrative through public education and
51:47
you know a government adjacent major
51:52
media and things like that but like you
51:54
can get in front of someone and talk to
51:57
them about your you know beliefs and a
52:00
lot of times they just are like that’s a
52:03
bit much like even if they agree with
52:04
your premise they still just kind of
52:06
think it’s a bit much is it really just
52:07
that much heavily of an indoctrination
52:09
thing or is it a messaging problem on
52:11
our part I mean I think people they just
52:19
like what they’re used to like they’ve I
52:22
mean like you said they’ve been to
52:23
government schools and if someone goes
52:25
to like a Christian school you’re going
52:27
to expect them to learn like what the
52:29
church wants something right and I mean
52:31
they’ve gone to public schools and what
52:33
the government wants them to know it’s
52:37
it’s an incredibly uncomfortable and
52:39
counterintuitive concept that we don’t
52:42
need a government I don’t know what it
52:43
was like for you to pry yourself from
52:45
that idea but it was not easy for me it
52:46
was painful as I imagine it is for a lot
52:48
of people coming to the party and
52:50
encountering anarchists for the first
52:51
time for the entirety of recorded human
52:54
history we’ve had governments we’ve
52:55
existed with governments and so from the
52:57
moment of your birth you existed in a
52:59
world where you you you just understood
53:00
there were government services tax
53:02
came right out of your paycheck you
53:03
might have never had cause to question
53:05
it it’s like that painful awakening from
53:07
the matrix where you wake up and you
53:08
realize you’re and you’re in a pod and
53:09
you’re like holy I’m not paying for
53:11
poor people I’m paying for war yeah I’m
53:13
paying for military bases around the
53:15
planet I’m paying for expensive bombs to
53:17
explode cheap villages this is this is
53:19
not what I thought the red white and
53:20
blue stood for like so I mean there’s a
53:22
reason why this isn’t a popular movement
53:24
this is a very difficult thing to wrap
53:26
one’s head around and our ability to
53:27
communicate it is is behind the times
53:30
man we got a good command of the
53:31
philosophy but we can’t speak to
53:33
people’s hearts we’re we’re so busy
53:34
being right we don’t know how to be nice
53:36
we’re not empathetic this is a very
53:39
interesting thing I had Robin
53:40
do you guys know Robin Koerner yeah I
53:44
don’t know him personally but yeah okay
53:45
so Robin Carter for those who don’t know
53:48
he’s he helps with libertarian marketing
53:51
and messaging and one of the things he
53:52
says is that because we’re so philosophy
53:56
driven we often forget the empathy part
54:00
of it and you know someone will come in
54:03
and and you know we were joking earlier
54:05
before we started that you know how
54:07
quickly you can be called a boot licker
54:08
by like just having a nuanced opinion
54:11
about the police or you know especially
54:13
if you’re not an anarchist
54:14
you know that one of the three of us end
54:16
up jumping down your throat because you
54:17
you know defend you know laws against
54:20
meth or something like that
54:21
and and and you know to me I think that
54:26
the state is I think most of us have
54:30
learned toxic codependent ways to
54:33
interact with other people and I think
54:35
that the state is just an expansion of
54:37
that if you look at the things that are
54:40
taught about healthy relationships
54:43
versus toxic and co-dependent
54:45
relationships if you look at how people
54:47
interact with one another within the
54:48
state where your neighbor becomes your
54:50
enemy because you’re voting against each
54:52
other but neither one of you is gonna
54:53
leave and you know that one has better
54:56
you know bow to my will that’s all
54:58
codependency and I think a lot of it is
55:00
just bad relational foundations that
55:04
just multiply out into you know how we
55:07
interact with the entire rest of the
55:09
world and I think what someone comes in
55:11
and says you don’t have to do that we
55:13
can have voluntary interactions with
55:15
people
55:16
we can have voluntary associations
55:17
associations with people the way that
55:19
you want to live your life can be done
55:21
and you can let other people live their
55:23
lives
55:24
it sounds so foreign that even before
55:27
you even get to the idea of no
55:28
government it’s like well no I have to
55:31
stop the bad people and they’re not
55:33
thinking about the fact that the bad
55:35
people are the ones voting too and
55:38
they’re in this constant fight with them
55:40
um but I so what would you say moving
55:45
forward if you had your your your you
55:49
know your if you could snap your fingers
55:51
and fake Rotarians turned into exactly
55:53
what you wanted it to be what what is
55:55
your goal what are your goals moving
55:58
forward with fake Rotarians and with
55:59
what you want to see happen in the
56:00
Liberty movement either one of you first
56:05
John first I guess okay I would I would
56:08
okay yeah whatever okay I would like to
56:13
see us develop a private militia that
56:14
will allow us to fend off government
56:16
forces and enact anarchy across the
56:18
country but that’s a long-term goal I
56:19
don’t know about John I mean that one I
56:26
mean just continue to call out the bad
56:28
actors and get them disassociated from I
56:32
mean I feel like that’s what we were
56:33
trying to do with Liberty hang out and
56:36
chase Rachel’s as a radical capitalist I
56:39
mean I feel like these people are kind
56:41
of poisoning the movement and they’re
56:42
just gotta get him out of there I would
56:45
love to help with the militia thing
56:47
sadly I lost all of my guns and ammo at
56:50
that tragic day at sea so I I can’t help
56:54
sorry
56:56
but I’m there in spirit but you know I
57:00
don’t know what I don’t know we’re not
57:01
we’re not going to deploy ground forces
57:03
we’re gonna have an orbital laser cannon
57:05
that’s just gonna handle from space
57:06
even better which that should be legal
57:08
so we here at muddy waters support full
57:12
and total legalization of recreational
57:14
plutonium and and whatever whatever it
57:18
technology is involved to make the laser
57:20
thing that you were just talking about
57:21
um so guys thanks again for coming in I
57:25
I really enjoyed having both of you hope
57:28
to have you on again I want to
57:30
you a chance before I let you go to give
57:32
any final thoughts that that day
57:37
anything that you want to promote
57:38
anything you thought we didn’t get to
57:40
touch on you have as much time as either
57:42
one of you want John and Kevin the floor
57:45
is yours
57:49
you got anything Kevin make a friend you
57:53
don’t agree with shake a hand across the
57:55
aisle and do something to up the
57:57
government today go feed some homeless
57:58
people do something nice man this is a
58:00
this a beautiful movement let’s treat it
58:02
like one let’s treat people like friends
58:03
that’s all I got thought I don’t got
58:05
nothing to plug I don’t have anything to
58:08
plug either but I mean God I kind of
58:10
agree with Kevin said yeah that was
58:12
actually pretty beautiful man like I
58:15
don’t know if I could top it I think I
58:17
may just turn off the feet um no I yeah
58:20
no I agree I I think that in the last
58:24
few last year or so my libertarianism
58:28
has looked more like like Kevin said
58:31
being nice to people talking to people
58:33
helping people encouraging people to
58:35
help others because it’s real easy for
58:37
me to say
58:38
yeah well without government we’ll fix
58:41
everything like will you know do it but
58:43
if I’m gonna look like an asshole who
58:45
don’t want to help anybody how
58:46
believable is that like if I’m sitting
58:48
you’re talking about screw the poor they
58:50
probably got their own their own you
58:51
know you’re gonna pull up to pull
58:53
themselves up by the bootstraps and but
58:55
at the same time saying well yeah well
58:57
you know without government I’ll take
58:58
care of them well that seems kind of
59:00
specious that sounds that sounds a
59:02
little far-fetched because you were
59:04
really hating on the poor so I think
59:06
that I I agree I think that that you
59:09
know if the more that we show that we’re
59:11
actually caring loving people
59:13
you have Brent de Ridder who’s you know
59:15
helping people you know helping set up
59:17
something where the the Liberty
59:19
Coalition for disaster relief I hope I’m
59:21
saying that correctly we’re when
59:23
disasters happen basically rednecks
59:25
would truck show up and and and boats
59:28
show up and help and rescue people
59:30
without any you know any intrusion by
59:33
the government it’s that kind of stuff
59:35
that’s gonna make people say oh wow yeah
59:38
no I guess we don’t need government cuz
59:39
this will happen Domino’s you know
59:41
fixing potholes like this this is
59:43
that you know makes oh yeah be nice to
59:45
each other guys again thank you guys for
59:47
coming on if you can stick around I want
59:49
to talk to you during the outro
59:50
but guys thank you again for tuning can
59:52
I hey yeah go ahead go ahead
59:53
can I get yeah I’d like to give one
59:55
shout-out because you reminded me of a
59:56
great organization actually the
59:57
libertarian international mutual aid
60:00
coalition it’s like a group of
60:01
anarchists ranging the economic spectrum
60:04
that are working to do good things
60:05
across the country so check them out
60:06
yeah absolutely
60:08
very cool so guys thanks again for
60:10
tuning in to my fellow Americans or my
60:12
fellow fake Rotarians actually it was
60:14
this episode um we hope that you enjoyed
60:16
it
60:16
tune in tomorrow for the writer’s block
60:20
with Matt Wright he is interviewing just
60:25
an amazing guest I was told many times
60:29
who it is but he’s great you’re gonna
60:32
love it
60:32
you you won’t believe who it’s gonna be
60:34
uh and then Friday I don’t know if Jason
60:37
and his wife Kelsey are still on baby
60:39
watch she’s gonna burst any minute so I
60:42
don’t know if he’s doing his show on
60:44
Friday cuz he seems to be prioritizing
60:46
his family over the show which you know
60:49
whatever that’s his thing so he may or
60:53
may not have a Shabbat episode of mr.
60:55
America the beard of truth but we shall
60:57
see then have a great weekend Monday
60:59
same thing do not know if Jason is
61:01
coming back or if like his whole this
61:04
whole baby thing is gonna like be
61:06
important to him or whatever but we’ll
61:07
see and then on Tuesday at 8 p.m.
61:11
be sure to tune in to the muddy waters
61:13
of freedom with me and Matt right as we
61:15
parse through the week’s news with the
61:17
reverence and joy of a of a young virgin
61:20
child and I will try my best to stay
61:22
awake this time I kept falling asleep
61:24
last night and I apologize for that but
61:27
be sure to tune in for that and then Oh
61:30
actually know I’m wrong so next next
61:33
Tuesday is next Tuesday and Wednesday
61:36
dem again to intersectional Boogaloo
61:39
which is the Democrat debates that will
61:43
no doubt be dominated by one Marianne
61:45
Williamson and we will be there to
61:48
livestream it and react it’s like
61:50
Mystery Science Theater 3000 except the
61:54
sci-fi monsters are all Democrats so
61:58
be sure to tune in to that thank you
62:00
guys again for tuning in and god bless
62:03
you
62:03
[Music]


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Spike Cohen
Spike Cohen
Local Jew. Contrarian stoic sentimentalist. Antidisestablishmentarianism. Will pet your dog.