(((My Fellow Americans))) #38: The Theory of Enchantment with Chloé Valdary

Chloé Valdary


About This Episode


As anyone who follows Spike knows, he is all about bringing humanity together. In keeping with that theme, he is joined by world-renowned author, speaker and activist Chloé Valdary to discuss what is missing in our current political discourse, how we can better relate to one another as human beings and how much better Spike is than Dave Rubin.

Theory of Enchantment

Chloé on YouTube

Theory of Enchantment Online Course

Use product code SPIKECOHEN for a more than 50% discount on the annual enrollment fee!

Intro & Outro Music by JoDavi.


Episode Transcript

DISCLOSURE
This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.
FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT
01:56
[Music]
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02:01
and now you’re watching my fellow
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02:35
fellow Americans I am literally spike
02:38
Cohen I’m so glad to have you here with
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me tonight have we got a show for you
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it’s called my fellow Americans it’s
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this show this is also the first episode
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by the way of my fellow Americans during
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Gay Pride Month and so I just like to
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take an opportunity to thank to say to
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all my LGBT followers I’m proud of you
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04:18
that is delicious delicious water thank
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you so much
04:22
shout out to Tama on Turkish mononym as
04:23
always guys before I introduce my guest
04:26
tonight I’d like to take a moment of
04:27
talk about something that has absolutely
04:30
outraged me and something that I think
04:33
that if left unaddressed will tear the
04:36
very fabric of this nation apart um you
04:39
see I was recently at Denny’s with my
04:41
wife and we’re just looking at the menu
04:44
like a normal person
04:45
looking at the menu everything looks
04:47
fine and then and I see this look at
04:52
that
04:52
oh let you look a little closer look at
04:55
that now
04:57
to the untrained eye you may be thinking
04:59
what’s the problem here there’s no
05:01
problem I’d see wild Alaskan salmon okay
05:03
let me let me this is not wild Alaskan
05:06
salmon look at that that is what they
05:09
call wild Alaskan salmon which they are
05:12
selling for $11 wild Alaskan salmon
05:17
which looks like this $11 for this which
05:22
is supposed to be wild Alaskan salmon
05:23
now let me explain why this is a lie and
05:28
why you should be as outraged as me
05:30
first of all that’s not what while the
05:32
Alaskan salmon looks like okay let’s
05:33
just be clear that’s I mean what salmon
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looks like and salmon isn’t white salmon
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is pink and wild Alaskan salmon is red
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that’s why people get it because it’s
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red and it tastes amazing it is the best
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thing I eat it almost every day and it
05:47
is amazing that is not wild Alaskan
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salmon and if it was wild Alaskan salmon
05:52
there was no way that they could sell it
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at that price point you can’t sell wild
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Alaskan salmon for 1139 you can sell
06:00
this whatever this is for 1139 that
06:03
could be chicken I don’t know what that
06:05
is but you could sell that for 1139
06:07
easily I don’t know what it is I don’t
06:08
want it but you could definitely sell it
06:09
for that much but definitely not actual
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wild Alaskan salmon
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not that whatever that is yes okay
06:14
here’s the real problem and this is what
06:16
makes me the most upset your Denny’s you
06:20
are Denny’s okay no one is coming and
06:22
expecting wild Alaskan salmon on the
06:24
menu all right they’re coming late at
06:26
night they’re expecting breakfast food
06:28
maybe like a case
06:29
or chicken fingers half of them are
06:31
intoxicated claiming that you have wild
06:33
Alaskan salmon on your menu provides
06:37
absolutely no value for you or for the
06:39
customer this is just lying for the sake
06:42
of lying it accomplished accomplishes
06:44
absolutely nothing and I just just stop
06:47
the lies Denny’s stop the damn lies just
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stop it
06:53
guys now I’d like to introduce my guest
06:58
my guest tonight is a world-renowned
07:00
author speaker activist and recently a
07:03
podcaster as well she got her start in
07:05
politics back in college where she
07:08
started a pro-israel advocacy group she
07:10
went on to become a director at
07:11
Jerusalem you she’s been featured in The
07:14
Wall Street Journal where she was a
07:16
Robert L Bartley fellow this is the
07:18
fancy show we’re having a fancy show
07:20
today okay Robert L Bartley fellow wall
07:22
street journal she was also featured on
07:25
New York Times the Atlantic tablet
07:28
Prager University
07:29
The Times of Israel and many other
07:31
publications she is currently the
07:32
creator of the theory of Enchantment
07:35
which is a lecture series and a
07:38
framework of conflict resolution and
07:40
interpersonal growth rooted in themes
07:42
found in pop culture here’s a quick
07:44
promo about the theory of Enchantment
07:50
so here are the three principles very
07:53
simple number one remember that we are
07:56
human beings not political abstraction
07:59
number two if you want to criticize
08:02
someone whose behavior you find bad or
08:05
problematic criticize in order to uplift
08:08
and empower never to tear down never to
08:12
destroy and number three everything we
08:15
do we want a root and love and
08:18
compassion ladies and gentlemen please
08:21
welcome to my fellow Americans the
08:23
amazing and talented MS Chloe
08:25
Valerie Chloe thank you so much for
08:27
coming to my fellow Americans I have had
08:31
the pleasure the honor if you will of
08:34
watching you bloom from an awkward
08:36
little full into the beautiful graceful
08:39
elegant lady stallion that I see before
08:42
me today and guys be sure to comment
08:46
with any questions or thoughts that you
08:47
have and Chloe and I will tell you if
08:49
you are right or wrong
08:51
now Chloe the the first thing I always
08:52
ask new guests when they come on is how
08:54
you would describe your political
08:55
beliefs and would you say that you kind
08:57
of got there as kind of an aha moment or
08:59
was sort of a gradual evolution over
09:01
time great I guess if that’s like a way
09:09
of exercising politics is to not do it
09:13
or not be engaged in it there are
09:16
political implications for what I do
09:17
obviously but I would say my aha moment
09:20
for sort of not wanting to exist
09:23
exclusively or primarily within the
09:25
realm of politics actually happened when
09:27
I was in college and it wasn’t really an
09:30
aha moment it was more of the series of
09:34
events or sort of like an event that
09:36
happened within a classroom that totally
09:38
gave me anxiety and depression and made
09:41
me rethink my entire world narrative so
09:45
I took a class called anthropology of
09:47
religion magic in witchcraft and at that
09:49
point I had been super religious in a
09:52
sort of dogmatic way and I was taught
09:56
and conditioned to believe that you know
09:59
if you acted a certain way or believed
10:01
in a certain way then you were sort of
10:02
on my side
10:04
if you didn’t and you were the enemy
10:05
right I tell you as the enemy whatever
10:07
that means
10:08
and I was in this class and I had a
10:10
professor was atheist and liberal and so
10:15
I had all these preconceived notions
10:16
about her because I grew up in a pretty
10:18
conservative home and one time we had
10:21
just seen Jesus camp which is a
10:23
documentary about evangelicals and there
10:25
was another student in the class was
10:26
also also atheist and she attacked the
10:30
evangelical community in that
10:31
documentary and then my atheist liberal
10:34
professor actually defended the
10:37
evangelicals depicted in that
10:39
documentary right I’ve never seen
10:41
anything like that and that totally
10:43
screwed me up because it screwed up my
10:46
sense of sort of like the hero and
10:48
villain
10:49
I guess conceptualization of the world
10:52
that I had right right and that forced
10:55
me to rethink the narrative I had been
10:58
running in my mind about what is good
11:00
and what is bad I think that that was
11:03
the catalyst that paved the way for me
11:06
to stop thinking and just like these big
11:08
political abstractions and start really
11:11
trying to think about the complexities
11:13
and nuances of life and the the
11:16
nonzero-sum game that life is so you
11:21
were you experienced a lot of distress
11:24
at the thought that there was way more
11:25
nuance to the world than you than you
11:28
thought previously yes yeah it’s it’s a
11:32
good thing but it’s actually right now I
11:36
now I remember this kind of speaks to
11:38
what you were just talking about I
11:39
remember first finding out about you
11:41
online as I remember all things it was
11:44
January 6th of 2014 around
11:48
2:48 p.m. ish Eastern um this is I don’t
11:52
know exactly when it was probably around
11:54
that time though this is around that it
11:57
was around the time that you were making
11:57
waves with your zionist activism the
12:00
whole like throw block woman who’s young
12:02
and and you also appeared at least to me
12:07
at the time to be pretty conservative
12:09
not necessarily Hannity esque but maybe
12:12
Hannity adjacent
12:16
the adjacent I get you know what I write
12:18
which honestly would have described me
12:19
well – at the time I was very
12:22
conservative at the time what would you
12:24
like to say to 2014 Chloe right now the
12:37
sort of I have to go through the like
12:44
righteous indignation Chloe in order to
12:47
come to the moment that I am now so I
12:49
wouldn’t necessarily change anything I
12:51
did that younger Chloe that there is
12:55
more there will be more to discover
12:57
about my world and about capital-t truth
13:00
and that this is just that this may seem
13:04
like the most pressing moment in your
13:07
sort of I guess career I was in college
13:09
then I was also like working for various
13:12
organizations and so it may seem like
13:14
the most pressing moment in your career
13:15
I mean you’re sort of Widing riding this
13:18
wave where people are like praising you
13:20
and things like that but right this is a
13:23
journey this is an intellectual journey
13:25
this is a philosophical journey that
13:26
you’re just now getting started on and
13:29
so like keep that in mind as you like in
13:32
front of rallies don’t take yourself too
13:36
seriously with all right now I’ve asked
13:47
that question before and I was told that
13:49
the correct answer is that you shouldn’t
13:51
say anything because that the
13:53
grandfather paradox and that crushes to
13:56
collapse a space in time or something
13:57
like that’s like a right your answer is
14:01
is is I like your answer better because
14:04
it’s easier than someone being difficult
14:05
and trying to explain you know quantum
14:06
mechanics on the show and and and and
14:09
that the paradox of time but now let me
14:12
ask you this I think I know the answer
14:13
to this do you still consider yourself a
14:15
Zionist or is that somewhat evolved as
14:17
well but even the way that manifests
14:22
itself in my life is very different than
14:24
the way it did in 2014 right now is a
14:27
scale of 1 to 10 how much do you
14:30
we want to argue with me about Israel
14:32
zero if you were to ask me in 2014 let’s
14:40
do it let’s let’s go yeah yeah yeah now
14:43
you might say something that I disagree
14:45
with and I’ll be like well you know it’s
14:48
gonna be interesting for anyone it isn’t
14:50
gonna be interesting no and I and I like
14:52
my whole thing is that you know the
14:56
things that people want to say about
14:57
Israel whether you agree with them or
15:00
not whether they’re true or not or
15:03
conversely a lot of the things that you
15:05
could want to say about Hamas sure you
15:08
know it’s like a which which in my mind
15:12
and you can disagree with this but it’s
15:13
almost like okay which bad actor are we
15:15
picking here
15:16
and when I say Israel and Hamas I’m not
15:18
talking about individual people within
15:20
and I mean that the people in the
15:21
leadership positions who in my mind
15:24
sometimes don’t seem to care much about
15:25
that the people that is that it’s
15:27
affecting it’s similar to how it is here
15:29
but um so ya know we wouldn’t have to
15:32
argue about that 20:19 like I wouldn’t
15:40
even necessarily disagree with you right
15:45
that’s a great point that’s a great
15:49
point you know people like the you know
15:50
sometimes it’s um you know I try to be
15:51
an alternative to the McLaughlin group
15:53
style of you know you’re wrong really
16:00
crazy that’s well then you know what I’m
16:04
talking about
16:06
yeah McLaughlin group Morton Downey jr.
16:09
all of that stuff is just that might
16:12
have been that’s probably before your
16:13
time but the yeah that one’s that’s
16:15
before that’s before your time he
16:17
basically said there’s a segment we’re
16:19
probably most famous Morton Downey
16:21
junior segment this is pre Jerry
16:22
Springer and all that he would bring
16:24
people on and um call them idiots
16:27
and stupid whiny liberals and like stuff
16:30
like that this was like groundbreaking
16:32
this was before even I think even before
16:34
see it this is before Ben Shapiro was
16:37
born probably and this was before any of
16:40
the cable news networks it was not like
16:43
this and certainly
16:43
from a conservative view and one of my
16:45
favorite skits is
16:47
segments or whatever was Ron Paul was on
16:49
there trying to explain everyone
16:51
everyone white all drugs should be legal
16:53
and he was like telling people like well
16:55
you’re fat maybe we should make that
16:56
illegal like that that was the show with
16:58
everyone just insulting each other so
17:00
we’re trying to be the opposite of that
17:01
but maybe not so much where it’s just
17:03
like us only just saying how like
17:06
awesome and agreeable we are to each
17:07
other
17:08
so speaking of being agreeable or I
17:11
guess maybe maybe not the theory of
17:13
Enchantment that’s that’s where you what
17:15
you’re doing right now I’ve read all
17:18
this stuff and I was listening to your
17:19
podcasts on it and I died I don’t want
17:22
to spoil it and so I’d rather you start
17:24
with it but I do want to ask you this
17:25
when you started this what did you see
17:28
that was missing in the public discourse
17:29
and how do you believe that theory of
17:31
Enchantment fills that void and and also
17:34
what is it even because no one even
17:35
knows what I’m talking about the world
17:42
of entrepreneurship this year and
17:45
creative LLC found an LLC in January so
17:49
Thurman Chapman is really an educational
17:51
consulting firm that provides a very
17:53
unique curriculum to different sectors
17:56
of society so whether it’s individuals
17:57
organizations companies and it really
18:00
teaches these sectors of society how to
18:02
navigate basically how to have better
18:05
relationships with each other how the
18:06
community better and all this
18:09
contributes to mental health and
18:10
wellness it contributes to how we think
18:13
about that versus that I always get this
18:15
wrong when I present diversity and
18:19
inclusion Department should actually
18:20
operate it informs how we think a
18:25
holistic society should look and the
18:27
reason why I wanted to create this was
18:29
what I was working for Israel
18:32
organizations I was trying to
18:34
essentially help Jewish students deal
18:36
with anti-semitism on college campuses
18:38
navigate that space and what I
18:40
discovered was that there’s a lot of
18:42
vocabulary in our culture about how to
18:44
combat racism or combat prejudice how to
18:48
combat hatred there is hardly any
18:51
there’s hardly no vocabulary about how
18:54
to actually love and that’s a skill set
18:57
that work
18:57
quite a practice that requires rewiring
19:00
the brain to sort of look at individuals
19:03
and groups and communities in different
19:05
ways and that really isn’t being
19:07
packaged in a way that’s marketable to
19:10
the communities or to society as a whole
19:12
and I really wanted to provide that
19:13
service because of that gap that’s very
19:16
interesting so you think so you this
19:19
came about because you think people are
19:21
focusing too much on fighting the hate
19:23
as opposed to saying well you know we
19:26
could love instead of hate and and
19:28
present that as kind of a I guess a
19:30
viable alternative right and so the
19:33
thing I always love to say is that
19:35
combating hate is important but it’s
19:38
actually not the same thing as learning
19:40
how to love it and if you actually teach
19:43
people how to learn how to love that can
19:45
in the long run end up combating the
19:48
hate but it’s a very different thing to
19:50
go to someone and say you know I don’t
19:53
hate you because you did this really
19:55
aggressive immoral thing and so I’m just
19:57
gonna tell you I hate you so I’m just
19:58
gonna be on my way like that hasn’t
20:00
necessarily changed and I win I win by
20:04
telling you I hate you and I win and
20:05
then you walk away its combating the
20:10
hate in the sense that it’s emotionally
20:12
rewarding for you right yes but it’s not
20:15
really combating the right so there
20:19
needs to be a discourse in the
20:20
vocabulary and a set of practices that
20:22
people in organizations and institutions
20:24
can actually engage in that can bring
20:27
about that better society that sounds
20:30
good so in the video we watched earlier
20:33
you laid out the three principles behind
20:35
the theory of Enchantment for the people
20:37
that are like me who are severely a d8d
20:40
maybe um can we just break down a little
20:43
bit what each of those principles are
20:45
and and also on the face of it I think
20:48
it you know hearing any of those things
20:50
I think most people would agree with
20:51
them on their face where do you think it
20:53
breaks down where it’s not actually
20:54
happening remember that we are human
20:59
beings not political abstractions number
21:02
to criticize to uplift and empower never
21:05
to tear down never to destroy and number
21:08
three root everything you do in loving
21:10
compassion
21:11
now as you said this sounds like common
21:13
sense yeah of course we’re not we’re all
21:16
humans right right right we’re not
21:18
robots
21:19
Chloe right but actually the first
21:22
principle is the first principle because
21:23
it’s so critical and because typically
21:26
especially in like spaces where there’s
21:28
political disagreement of a hyper
21:30
partisan nature this entire principle
21:32
gets thrown out of the window and people
21:34
don’t realize that people come to form
21:36
their own political opinions as a
21:38
product of who they are as very common
21:41
being do different things they value and
21:44
the different things they ascribe
21:45
meaning toward anything they’ve
21:47
experienced in all sorts of stuff yeah
21:49
exactly all that baggage of things they
21:52
grew up with all of the all that
21:55
complexity informs who they are today
21:57
right and so to come to a person with
22:00
equipped with that knowledge and ready
22:02
to speak to that person aware of what
22:05
makes up their complex selves you’re
22:06
much more likely to be persuasive and
22:08
relatable in getting your point across
22:11
as opposed to seeing that person as just
22:14
an abstraction of very pigeonhole
22:16
stereotype that you can just assume
22:18
things about when in fact you know
22:19
nothing about them and nothing about
22:20
their life isn’t just about this isn’t
22:23
just about political disagreements it’s
22:24
about disagreements of any nature right
22:27
it’s just about being able to navigate
22:30
the human condition that that we are
22:32
forced with today right and so yes that
22:37
first principle seems very obvious but
22:39
when you if you were to enroll in the
22:41
curriculum that I built what it breaks
22:43
down into it’s actually learning what it
22:45
means to be a human being and what it
22:47
means to be a human being is to as I
22:49
mentioned earlier it means that you have
22:50
all these insecurities that you have to
22:53
man that you have feelings of
22:54
vulnerability how do you how do you deal
22:56
with feelings of vulnerability how do
22:58
you feel like deal with feelings of
23:00
inadequacy and incompetence and how you
23:03
first understand the first principle as
23:06
applied to the self because as it turns
23:08
out you can’t be in relationship with
23:10
other people if you don’t have a healthy
23:12
relationship with yourself so once you
23:14
learn how to apply to the self you can
23:16
learn how to apply to the other and send
23:18
for the second principle like once you
23:20
internalized the first principle then
23:22
this idea of criticizing in order
23:24
uplift and empower not to tear down
23:26
people becomes almost second nature
23:28
because now you’re equipped with this
23:31
awareness of the idea of like people
23:33
having internal work or worthiness and
23:36
that also may sound cliche that’s
23:39
something like that a lot of people were
23:40
raised with or a lot of people are a few
23:42
people on Twitter tell me they were
23:43
raised with that but it doesn’t seem
23:46
like it when you write each in a lot of
23:49
the discourses that were having in
23:51
society today people will say people
23:54
will say you know I was raised you know
23:56
to treat people like people and to you
23:59
know and to you know relate to their
24:01
common experience not like these
24:02
monsters out here you know these
24:04
scumbags we have to stop them from from
24:07
you know spreading their intolerant way
24:09
anyone going exactly that it’s funny you
24:12
say that because you know there’s an
24:14
incredibly poignant film out right or
24:18
it’s not a film it’s sort of like a
24:19
series of episodes when they see us
24:21
which is a very thing on Netflix to
24:25
watch yeah but you should watch it
24:27
because it’s it’s important and I think
24:28
one of the things are highlights is like
24:30
the military effects of the punitive
24:33
system of our criminal justice system
24:36
and how it sort of rewards these sort of
24:39
hyper prosecutorial I guess outlooks on
24:45
life and how that creates problems
24:47
especially for inner-city communities
24:49
and people of color know what’s what’s
24:51
so interesting about this is that like
24:53
embedded within this sort of cultural
24:56
phenomenon of a film is this idea that
24:58
we should actually be we should be
25:01
combating the punitive nature of our
25:04
criminal justice department and at the
25:08
same time we have people this is the
25:11
great irony to your point we have we
25:13
have people who are basically saying the
25:16
punitive system is wrong and so we need
25:19
to totally destroy the prosecutor who
25:23
prosecuted the kids we must punish them
25:27
we must punish the punishes yeah
25:29
interesting right and what the film is
25:37
supposed to me
25:38
– yeah but actually have to dig even
25:40
deeper it’s it’s proof that we haven’t
25:42
actually fully internalized the message
25:44
of the self not absolutely because it’s
25:48
like on the one hand we’re like the
25:49
punitive system sucks but let’s do the
25:51
punitive system as applied and we have
25:54
to have a much more holistic you know
25:56
view of how we want to really implement
25:59
ways of healing our society it can’t be
26:02
a zero sum game it can’t be like we have
26:05
to heal one community well like bashing
26:07
another community we have to approach it
26:09
in a very holistic manner yeah yeah I
26:11
agree it’s funny cuz I as you know I’m
26:13
an anarchist and in anarchists circles
26:15
there is a very interesting paradox that
26:18
many of them have not all but many of
26:19
them have where they’re pretty in a very
26:21
similar vein to what you were saying
26:22
where it’s like you know these people
26:24
are controlling us and they’re you know
26:26
being violent they’re trying to you know
26:27
force us into these things and we have
26:29
to stop them we have to form together
26:30
and we have to take them and put them on
26:32
trial and then guillotine them and I’m
26:34
like okay this sounds very very
26:38
suspiciously similar to what it is you
26:41
are saying you’re against and we saw it
26:43
with the French Revolution we yet we saw
26:45
and to some extent with the American
26:46
Revolution you saw you know this
26:48
resistance to injustice which went from
26:51
being sort of a defensive act into
26:53
becoming a you know what it marks call
26:56
it a dictatorship of the proletariat
26:57
where the the abusers peak they abused
27:01
become the abusers and vice versa and
27:04
all this happened is you know who’s
27:05
holding which you know who has which
27:08
role and that that flick you said that
27:10
feels good to the people that are now
27:13
the abusers but you’re just continuing
27:14
that cycle and if you look at it like
27:16
you said from a holistic standpoint you
27:19
didn’t help anything chief like you went
27:21
and made it now you’re the bad guy that
27:24
that’s what you changes you’re the
27:25
villain now and there I guess the good
27:27
guys are there or at least the victims
27:29
of your of your villainy and and so it’s
27:31
very happy to see that you’re that
27:33
you’re doing this type of thing now you
27:37
would mention polarization in your in if
27:41
not in that then I think in one of the
27:42
videos about theory of Enchantment do
27:45
you think that polarization in our
27:47
society is possibly a feature and not a
27:51
bug
27:52
meaning that like the people leading
27:54
these various political movements and
27:56
and and and activist groups and things
27:58
like that
27:59
whether wittingly or unwittingly they
28:01
don’t actually want to find common
28:03
ground they kind of want to radicalize
28:05
their followers and create boogie men
28:07
out of their opponents so that they can
28:08
keep everyone at each other’s throats
28:10
and more easily manipulate others again
28:13
not even necessarily realizing that’s
28:14
what they’re doing or do you think that
28:16
this is truly like a bug like people
28:19
don’t want to do this like the market
28:31
rewards it especially on Twitter so if
28:34
the market rewards polarization
28:37
financially or otherwise and that’s what
28:39
you’re going to do because it’s quite
28:41
frankly feed your family and gives you
28:44
status and so that’s what you’re going
28:48
to do and you’re going to do it with
28:50
glee actually so I think that there’s
28:53
something that has to be worked out with
28:54
regard to that that that market effect
28:57
that market aspect and I’m not quite
28:59
sure like how to how to sort of fix that
29:04
or compete with that which is I on it
29:07
because I just started a business but
29:08
we’ll see if only someone would just you
29:12
know put together something to try to
29:13
help people figure out how to do this
29:17
but at the same time it’s also human
29:20
nature so it’s not just like market
29:22
forces it’s like I don’t know if you’re
29:24
into Game of Thrones I don’t know if you
29:25
watched it oh yes okay so I think this
29:29
is the thing that was the one teaching
29:31
woman that came away from the very box
29:33
eight season was who was kaliesha’s you
29:38
know turning into in the name of social
29:41
justice into an oppressor right and I
29:44
don’t think that that was a market for
29:46
staying capitalism didn’t exist back
29:48
then I think it’s a function of human
29:50
nature and so it is incumbent upon us as
29:53
human beings to be aware of our nature
29:55
and to try to temper the excesses the
29:58
negative excesses of our impulses that
30:01
that lend themselves to that and I think
30:03
that that’s the larger thing that’s
30:05
that’s going on what’s going on is it is
30:07
a human development thing not a whether
30:12
you’re unwittingly or deliberately doing
30:14
it or not yeah and in the market in many
30:17
ways is an extension of human nature
30:19
it’s human nature played out in in in
30:21
sort of this kind of mass you know like
30:22
human nature is saying I’m gonna buy
30:25
this here because it’s cheaper the exact
30:27
same thing is cheaper here then than
30:28
there that’s human nature playing out
30:30
trying to find the best deal um there
30:32
are two things I agree with what you
30:33
just said
30:33
that you know people are you know the
30:37
perfect example you know Khaleesi
30:39
Daenerys you know she she right now I’m
30:44
trying not to think of all the things
30:46
that were wrong with that season um but
30:47
but Daenerys you know she went from at
30:50
the beginning of the story she was you
30:53
know they were trying to kill her that
30:54
the the you know Baratheon were trying
30:56
to kill her the you know she gets
30:59
married away to a guy who’s raping her
31:01
and she over time strengthens herself
31:04
and becomes a champion of the oppressed
31:07
doing some pretty brutal stuff along the
31:09
way but she was doing it to bad people
31:11
quote-unquote and then all of a sudden
31:13
you come all the way full circle where
31:15
she’s uh where she’s just burning the
31:19
largest city in the known world and
31:21
killing pretty much everyone and and
31:23
then you know pretty much saying to John
31:26
who was apparently became thick-headed
31:28
in the last season that you know what
31:30
we’re gonna do this to Winterfell next
31:31
and then to Dorne and then everywhere
31:33
else and he’s just like you were my
31:34
queen and so the other thing I agree
31:37
with you with is that they completely
31:38
botched that season in most of season
31:40
seven first of all John kills Daenerys
31:43
total sidenote here John kills Daenerys
31:46
why did the and so and then the
31:48
unsullied presumably capture him why did
31:50
the Dothraki not fight the unsullied to
31:53
free their new cow because he’s their
31:56
new call
31:56
he killed the Khaleesi he’s the call
31:58
he’s now their leader why did that not
32:00
happen I don’t think thing anymore yeah
32:06
I mean they’ve already gone across the
32:08
world and you know what that’s a good
32:16
point they weren’t they were they just
32:18
fought zombie
32:19
they’re not worried about their their
32:20
archaic social structure anymore you
32:22
know I that’s a good point and I’m less
32:25
angry now still angry I’m still angry
32:27
but I’m less angry so in the spirit of
32:31
making human connections finding common
32:34
ground and and and not treating people
32:36
as political extra abstractions who
32:38
would you consider the worst enemy of
32:40
the theory of Enchantment and and how do
32:42
we destroy them I’ll say what’s the
32:54
caveat of like again the theory of
32:57
adrenaline has very specific framework
32:59
for criticizing supposed to be like
33:05
appreciative inquiry and like you you
33:08
talk about what you value and you
33:09
criticize right because you actually
33:12
care about that person so all that being
33:13
said I don’t know if this is like the
33:16
biggest I mean look at politics I love
33:20
that you’re trying to figure out who
33:22
your biggest enemy is but they were go
33:23
ahead different ways of it’s different
33:28
paradigms of viewing the world right
33:30
right right
33:33
no I understand that’s why I love that
33:35
you’re like painting yourself to do this
33:38
but I find it problematic do you know
33:47
Robyn D’Angelo is I want to say I’ve
33:52
heard that name but no no no actually
33:55
works anti-bias training okay she coined
34:00
the term white fragility and she is
34:03
basically this entire philosophy of how
34:05
to combat racism which is very much
34:11
basically like you have to tell white
34:13
people to hold still while I hit you
34:14
essentially but yes my people have to
34:19
essentially say yes please hitting
34:20
please keep hitting me like I you know I
34:25
acknowledge my sins my original sin yeah
34:30
with no with no hope of redemption
34:32
that’s what I always like to point out
34:34
when people mean that comparison is that
34:35
it’s not like original sin original sin
34:37
has actually a redemptive Clausen yeah
34:39
yeah but so that whole model which is
34:42
actually pretty pervasive
34:44
in certain sectors of society it’s it’s
34:47
affected a lot of educational
34:48
departments affected a lot of anti-bias
34:50
and like diversity trainings that type
34:54
of philosophy is very dangerous and has
34:58
that I’ll call it the Khaleesi effect
35:00
thank you Prince Aegon like shortening
35:03
what we’re talking about in which people
35:08
become the oppressed sir in the name of
35:12
trying to right fight for the oppressor
35:16
and the problem with with one of the
35:18
things that underpins that is another
35:21
sort of flaw in thinking which is this
35:23
notion that if you are oppressed
35:25
are you a real outskirts in the show or
35:28
no you say whatever you want on the ship
35:30
well except you did don’t nothing like
35:32
don’t advocate for anyone to be killed
35:33
but I think we’re good on that
35:34
sort of like rape murder like that kind
35:38
of thing you know yes you can say
35:39
whatever you want false there’s a flaw
35:43
in this sort of robbing Manjula model of
35:46
thinking that if you are oppressed
35:47
there’s no way that you can be an
35:49
asshole but it turns out that if you are
35:51
oppressed you could also be you can also
35:53
be and also be a bad person right yep
35:58
yep law in thinking that if you are
36:01
oppressed then you sort of fit into this
36:04
box of good person and the person who is
36:06
oppressing you is bad person really
36:08
that’s not how the human condition works
36:09
it’s not right that’s not who we are as
36:12
human beings and so what dr. Angelou
36:15
does not reducing people to their skin
36:16
color ironically is essentially creating
36:19
a framework in which human beings are
36:22
are reduced to what she believes to be
36:25
the essence of their skin color which
36:27
doesn’t make any sense and that creates
36:29
that khaleesi effect so that’s what I
36:31
would criticize on the left especially
36:33
it’s important to me because I am a
36:34
person of color and like it really like
36:36
affects the way like it affects me
36:39
personally and like it’s right I have
36:41
people going around thinking of me as
36:43
like a political abstraction
36:45
or like a category as opposed to a
36:48
fully-functioning complex human being
36:50
then they also going to treat me in
36:52
weird ways and I’m gonna have to like
36:54
call them out but in the spirit of
36:55
Enchantment not call out their behavior
36:59
as in white why it’s wrong yeah yeah
37:02
yeah no I I can I can imagine it’s
37:05
cathartic though I mean I am painfully
37:08
white as this camp as this light is
37:10
helping demonstrate this LED light I
37:12
don’t know why I have an LED light on me
37:13
I glow in the dark so I am extremely
37:15
extremely white I am Jewish but I’m also
37:18
like no one knows I’m Jewish unless I
37:21
tell them which I do often I have very
37:27
exactly is I’m visibly I could when I
37:30
was a kid I was like platinum white hair
37:32
I look like a Hitler Youth poster
37:34
candidate like I mean III I’m very very
37:38
very very white so I obviously don’t
37:40
know what it’s like to be a person of
37:41
color I can imagine that it is very
37:44
cathartic especially if you have been
37:46
dealing with both in over and covert
37:51
ways dealing with being treated like a
37:53
lesser person not that you’re being
37:55
chained and enslaved or anything like
37:57
that but just your existing in the same
37:59
world as others but you’re just it’s
38:02
noticeable that you’re being treated
38:03
differently on a sort of a macro scale I
38:07
can imagine it would be cathartic now to
38:09
get to play a little part in acting that
38:13
way towards an entire you know treating
38:16
all white people as an abstraction and
38:18
making these generalizations and if any
38:20
white person comes along to say well I’m
38:21
not like that go Little Crow and like
38:23
make fun of that and you know create
38:25
these spaces where I watch it and I used
38:27
to get upset now I laugh because I’m
38:29
like they’re having fun with this like
38:31
you know white people do XYZ and you
38:34
know me I post the white people jokes
38:36
because for the same reasons I post
38:37
jokes in general I just think they’re
38:39
funny and okay people I put so much
38:42
chicken and I’m like we’re portrayal
38:44
intricate like I mean I get it I get why
38:47
it’s funny and I get why it can be
38:48
cathartic on like a you know you’ve been
38:50
putting me through this or not you but
38:52
the white people quote-unquote are this
38:55
society including black people that help
38:57
enforce it but that’s a whole other
38:58
subject
38:59
I have been putting me through this and
39:02
now I get a chance just to kind of dig
39:03
at you but it speaks to what happens if
39:06
this individual ends up in a position of
39:08
power do they suddenly go well I’ve had
39:10
my fill of that now I’m gonna spread joy
39:12
and love and equality and and I fear
39:15
that that’s maybe not what’s gonna
39:16
happen do you have that same fear that I
39:18
do making white people jokes about
39:23
cooking I mean I do yeah so that was
39:30
just to be clear that was just an
39:32
example of like that whoa don’t do that
39:34
but like saying you know white like you
39:36
said yeah okay okay okay yeah I think
39:39
it’s a good general way of thinking and
39:41
being you become if you go too far if
39:45
you like what’s that way of thinking not
39:49
careful when you do find yourself in a
39:52
position of power you can become
39:53
solitary and the other thing is that we
39:57
as a society don’t understand we think
40:01
of power as a very simple thing we think
40:05
of power almost like as being defined by
40:07
firepower so you have the power to
40:09
enforce you know something but powers
40:12
actually I think much more complicated
40:14
than that and you know I would say that
40:17
dr. King and James Baldwin both viewed
40:20
power and much more metaphysical ways
40:21
than simply saying like I have a gun and
40:23
I can enforce this and they would have
40:26
argued that racists were actually the
40:28
victims of their own making essentially
40:31
which is which is the type of language
40:33
that you don’t really hear today yeah
40:37
like not here they will say that like
40:40
racists are are engaging in a power
40:43
imbalance and so you need to take the
40:45
power back and they are on one level but
40:48
then about a physical level which is
40:49
another dimension different different
40:51
way of thinking about all these things
40:53
it’s it changes the way like James
40:57
Baldwin famously said in the debate that
40:59
it’s the arguments in some ways much
41:02
worse for the racist who presumably
41:05
loves his wife and loves his kids and
41:07
still sees fit to go attack and beat up
41:10
a black young black one that he
41:12
Ryan are you Rick it was arguably worse
41:15
for the soul of that person than it was
41:18
for the person being persecuted because
41:20
there’s something far great hard more
41:23
damaging internally in that racist
41:25
person that has to be dealt with and has
41:28
to be healed and that’s a totally
41:29
different way of thinking about power
41:31
and thinking about you know how we view
41:36
I guess the ability to do something just
41:40
which is the definition of power right
41:42
so right so that’s something that I’ve
41:44
thought about before a lot actually
41:47
well that’s that’s interesting because
41:49
if you I I tend to look at um so if you
41:54
look at the societal issues and you
41:58
almost and you distilled them down to if
42:00
you were thinking of a family instead of
42:01
a society so instead of 320 million
42:03
people or 7 billion people or whatever
42:05
talk think about you know a couple dozen
42:07
people living together as a family these
42:09
things start to just look like
42:11
run-of-the-mill toxic co-dependent
42:13
relationships and so using that same I
42:16
guess
42:19
extrapolation you could also say that so
42:21
like giving your example the the abuser
42:24
the person who is you know being the the
42:28
presumably the one who’s benefiting the
42:30
most from this toxic relationship in
42:32
many ways they’re the most tortured one
42:33
of all because they’re doing all of
42:36
these things to make up for either you
42:38
know great anxieties and fears that they
42:40
have feelings of inadequacy and all of
42:43
these other things and yes that doesn’t
42:46
excuse what they’re doing and it you
42:47
know it needs to stop and the way that
42:49
they do these things needs to change and
42:51
the people that are being forced into
42:53
this need to be able to disassociate
42:54
from them so that they don’t have to
42:55
deal with that but that doesn’t change
42:57
the fact that that person’s really like
42:59
really really probably like you said
43:02
possibly worse off than anyone else in
43:03
terms of who they are inside out
43:06
tortured they are inside and like you
43:07
were saying power you know Paul Gordon
43:11
who’s a guest of mine regularly he talks
43:14
about the reality of power that there
43:15
are many different types of power and
43:16
and you know force power is just one of
43:19
them me being able to point a gun at
43:20
someone and go you do this or I’ll kill
43:22
you or me being able to you know show an
43:24
army to someone and say I will
43:26
the crap out of everyone you care about
43:27
unless you do that that’s one type of
43:29
power and it’s it’s the most overstated
43:31
one because there’s also if I have the
43:34
ability and I forget the labels he uses
43:36
but if I had the ability to in talking
43:38
to you change your mind so that not only
43:41
are you doing the thing that I want you
43:43
to do but you want to do it I’m not
43:45
forcing you to do it at gunpoint this is
43:47
now a thing that you feel just it
43:48
passionately is me that is power if if I
43:52
can change you know public opinion to
43:55
kind of almost like societally pressure
43:58
you or for lack of a better word peer
44:00
pressure you into doing something that’s
44:02
not quite as good as getting to convince
44:03
you to do it but it’s still better than
44:04
pointing a gun at you because you still
44:06
feel like this is something you should
44:07
be doing so those things are you know in
44:09
my mind more powerful than the power we
44:12
tend to think of you know you know force
44:15
power marshal power different paradigms
44:22
of viewing the way the world works
44:24
someone actually had a conversation with
44:26
me the other day
44:27
going back to quantum physics they
44:30
explained it like someone who views
44:32
physics through the lens of a Newtonian
44:34
model versus someone who sees it through
44:37
the lens of quantum physics so the
44:38
Newtonian model is yes for those for
44:43
them for the idiots out there who don’t
44:45
know like the difference it’s like the
44:53
physical like this computer is
44:55
physically in front of me that’s right I
44:59
drop it I break it whatever that’s your
45:01
nutrient level of it but the quantum
45:03
level of physics is like the energy
45:04
within the universe right and it’s going
45:08
much more deeper than the physical
45:09
manifestation of what’s happening in
45:11
front of you and that’s the problem I
45:13
have what Robin DeAngelo’s model is that
45:15
her model is only about the physical
45:17
appearance essentially of the person
45:19
standing in front of you and the
45:21
implication of that allegedly as opposed
45:23
to the energy within the person the
45:26
things that have contributed to the
45:28
person being who they are and how that
45:30
informs what they’re doing to themselves
45:33
and to me and then I’ll multiply that on
45:35
a societal level so that’s
45:39
I do want to bring up my problems with
45:40
the right in regards to this I don’t
45:43
want to just focus on the left because
45:44
the right does this too I would say like
45:47
I I used to you know I used to write for
45:50
truth live role which was a magazine
45:52
that likes ben shapiro had headed up so
45:54
i used to work for ben shapiro on the
45:57
israel side right
45:58
and I think that both to a certain
46:01
extent ben shapiro and to a greater
46:03
extent
46:04
Candice always represents the same
46:06
phenomenon on the right this is what
46:09
they do is they make these sweeping
46:11
claims about how the left wants to
46:14
destroy us all the left as this again
46:17
flit across write this yeah this this
46:19
might Leviathan yeah it’s ironic that
46:23
they criticize Tallahassee Coates I know
46:30
we got a lot of back and forth was with
46:34
Tennessee coach yeah because one of the
46:38
things they were critical of I remember
46:42
correctly is in his essay about Donald
46:44
Trump being the first white president he
46:46
just describes whiteness as this like
46:48
cosmic thing Forks in the world but it’s
46:52
like how they describe the left they
46:54
describe the left as if it were this
46:56
cosmic force in the world like the media
46:59
they are the media yes yep enormous
47:02
platforms with Millett the people
47:05
following them their activism they don’t
47:08
have power they have power to influence
47:10
and they are the media and so they to
47:13
reduce people on the left to these
47:16
cookie cutter pigeon-holed you know
47:20
mindless drones when this monolith yeah
47:23
like Sauron or something yep yep like
47:26
the left in my opinion is far more
47:27
interesting and nuanced in many ways in
47:31
the picture that they depict so they to
47:34
have makes you have contributed to this
47:37
this force in society that’s just like
47:40
not allowing us to deal with each
47:43
other’s humanities and instead in
47:46
empowering us and encouraging us to just
47:49
reduce one another to two
47:53
Jex subjects well and and I agree
47:56
hundred-percent and specifically with
47:58
Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens in some
48:01
ways
48:01
they’re presenting themselves by virtue
48:04
of their identities as sort of a counter
48:06
abstraction so it’s like well you know
48:09
I’m a Jew and I’m conservative or you
48:12
know I’m a black woman and let me
48:14
explain why the democrat party is a
48:16
plantation that we should flee from and
48:20
how in no way is that hyperbolic at all
48:24
to compare a political party to like
48:28
chattel slavery you’re comparing a
48:35
political party the 21st century to
48:37
plantation life like and no one is like
48:41
no one sees a problem with this it’s a
48:43
rough yeah that’s a rough that’s a rough
48:47
rough conspiracy if I have to I have to
48:50
believe maybe I’m wrong I have to
48:52
believe that a bench of ben shapiro
48:54
tried to on ironically compare like the
48:59
Democratic Party to Auschwitz that there
49:03
I’d have to think that there’d be some
49:05
backlash would there be people out there
49:08
like yeah I totally agree with yes but
49:10
with the by and large would he get way
49:13
more flak than she’s getting for
49:15
comparing maybe I’m fooling myself maybe
49:17
maybe I’m wrong but I have to think that
49:20
he’s getting a little more flak for
49:23
comparing it to Shoah then then then you
49:26
know then show was the Holocaust for
49:29
doesn’t know then then Candace is
49:31
getting comparing it to slavery but but
49:32
I don’t know I don’t know it honestly I
49:34
don’t know anymore as I’m saying it may
49:36
be they may be all my friends half my
49:39
Facebook friends feed would come out and
49:40
say yes of course this is exactly like
49:42
the gas chambers I know I don’t know
49:45
what to think you know I just am baffled
49:48
by what people are what people get away
49:51
with intellectual ya know exactly what
49:56
you know what isn’t comparable to the
49:57
Holocaust anchor FM so guys are you
50:00
thinking of podcasting well let me tell
50:03
you something if you are thinking of
50:04
making a pot there’s an anchor will be
50:06
three
50:07
at this plug I’m sure anchor is the
50:10
easiest way to make a podcast anchor
50:12
gives you everything you need in one
50:13
place for free which you can use right
50:16
from your phone or your computer they
50:18
have creation tools that allow you to
50:20
record and edit your podcast so it
50:21
sounds great
50:23
they will distribute the podcast for you
50:25
so it can be heard everywhere from
50:27
Spotify Apple podcasts Google podcasts
50:30
and many more pretty much everywhere um
50:33
you can easily make money from your
50:36
podcast with no minimum listenership
50:38
which is a big deal we are actually
50:40
making money for the first time even
50:42
though we don’t have tens of thousands
50:44
of listeners yet don’t don’t do
50:48
SoundCloud if you were if you were if
50:50
you are if you are not an already famous
50:51
person and you were thinking of
50:53
podcasting then be sure to download the
50:56
anchor app or go to anchor dot FM to get
51:00
started and that is my contractually
51:02
obligated plug now Chloe speaking of
51:04
podcast you recently started a podcast
51:06
in you guilting you into podcasting more
51:16
it’s called theory of Enchantment and I
51:19
will actually be I’m actually gonna
51:21
start talking more about the theory in
51:23
the past I’ve interviewed really
51:25
interesting folks yeah but I think that
51:27
my voice has sort of sort of minimized
51:30
my voice and I think that I’m trying to
51:32
hone in my skills as an educator so I
51:36
think it’ll be interesting to see how I
51:38
talk more about the theory and about the
51:40
teachings and the lessons of the theory
51:42
it’s really interesting because the
51:44
theory of Enchantment curriculum is
51:45
super innovative because it uses pop
51:50
culture as a text to teach insights on
51:53
the human condition
51:54
so instead of studying a psych 101
51:56
textbook you’ll actually study things
51:58
like Disney’s The Lion King you’ll study
52:01
things like a song by Kendrick Lamar or
52:04
a song by John Mayer texts by James
52:06
Baldwin a poem by Maya Angelou to
52:09
actually talk about and discuss and
52:11
unpack these insights into the human
52:12
condition so and that’s that’s that’s
52:15
that’s way more relatable yeah
52:20
then psych 101 even the people that are
52:24
into psych 101 there’s gonna be a very
52:26
small subset of people that are like yes
52:28
yeah psych 101 way more interesting than
52:32
Maya Angelou or James Baldwin or
52:35
Kendrick Lamar or whomever else so I can
52:37
imagine that’s more relatable III I
52:40
caught a couple of your podcast you
52:41
interviewed the former white nationalist
52:43
the founder of Jase wipe I found out
52:46
that there’s foul I did I said I learned
52:48
this week that there’s a app called Jase
52:51
wipe exclusive Jewish dating which would
52:55
I just learned that listen I’ve been out
52:57
of the dating world for like over a
52:59
decade and also let me tell you
53:01
something doesn’t mean let me put this
53:02
onto me I I don’t date Jewish my whole
53:05
thing you know once you go Gentile
53:07
you’re in the 99th percentile and but
53:11
now back to you um but so it was very
53:13
interesting I I’d like to think that you
53:15
you started this podcast because you
53:17
started listening to my show and you
53:19
thought wow that’s that’s terrible I
53:22
need to make something that hopefully in
53:24
some small way offsets the horrible
53:28
things that that spike is doing by
53:31
making something that is is good am I am
53:33
I correct in that good I’m glad to glad
53:39
to hear it so yeah I didn’t realize that
53:41
you’re so you’re you’re gonna try to
53:43
switch up your how you relate to the
53:47
people on the during the podcast be less
53:49
of a I guess interviewer and more of
53:50
where you’re having conversation yeah
53:56
it’s tough it’s tough
53:59
it is tough I like talking about how I
54:02
think about stuff but when you have
54:04
someone on you naturally just want to
54:06
ask them questions and be like yeah
54:09
that’s a great point or I don’t know I
54:11
maybe I don’t agree with it but it’s I’m
54:13
learning if you watch my first view of
54:16
don’t don’t but if you did watch my
54:18
first few episodes I’m just like that’s
54:22
a good point wow I never thought of it
54:23
that way or I agree with that and and as
54:27
opposed to like having a conversation so
54:30
I’m trying to strike that balance so
54:32
you’ll get your you’ve done how many
54:33
episodes
54:34
I’ve done 10 episodes okay then your you
54:37
have you have you will get much better
54:39
but I thought you were good I thought
54:41
you I thought you were good but yes it
54:43
is it is it is difficult to find that
54:46
balance between just being like a
54:49
reporter putting a microphone in
54:51
someone’s face and being like like a
54:54
Larry King who’s you know the interviews
54:56
half about him you know as much as it is
54:58
about the person yeah it’s it’s tough
55:00
it’s tough because you want to be
55:01
somewhere in between those you know so
55:07
yeah I want to try that cool well it’s
55:11
good you know you could have the founder
55:13
of my fellow Americans on and that would
55:15
be something and then and then you could
55:17
just ask me questions and then I could
55:19
time that could be an episode where you
55:20
don’t try to do that you just let me
55:21
talk we don’t we could very funny person
55:38
I am ah thank you and I am a fan of this
55:40
idea of finding your enemies and and and
55:43
and and and naming and shaming them and
55:50
people who disagree with theory of
55:53
Enchantment so fragile
55:58
yeah although yeah so okay now now Chloe
56:01
there are one of my favorite places on
56:04
the Internet is the comment section of
56:08
your Facebook post where I try to reside
56:11
as much as possible basically I think
56:13
you’re in a similar situation as me
56:15
where you have cultivated yeah
56:18
cultivated a largely conservative
56:20
following and maybe slightly
56:25
over-represented from the the general
56:27
public well we should say and they have
56:29
become exasperated exasperated downright
56:32
apoplectic if you will at the idea that
56:35
you have nuanced opinions and are not
56:36
essentially a Tucker Carlson clone this
56:40
is not a segue into a question I just
56:41
wanted to take this opportunity to thank
56:43
you for your comment or
56:48
if you actually told Dave Rubin said if
56:50
anything I’m like like I’m I don’t
56:53
really like the political labels but I’m
56:55
definitely like a former right winger
56:57
sort of transitioning into a centrist
56:59
right not a center last person whatever
57:02
that means like I don’t know but you’re
57:06
not ready to say what you’re becoming
57:07
but I know what you’re becoming becoming
57:11
one of me it’s happening it’s you’re not
57:18
now okay so this is like 2014 Chloe I’m
57:21
not an anarchist no you’re definitely
57:23
not right now and we go ahead I don’t
57:25
interrupt you and you’re not being an
57:26
anarchist you know I love them sometimes
57:36
they drive me crazy
57:37
and if it’s anyone that I’m trying to
57:40
affect with enchantment it’s not just
57:45
them it’s like it’s like there are there
57:48
are conservatives on my wall that will
57:50
go apoplectic my opinions they’re also
57:53
liberals that on my wall they go oh yeah
57:55
yeah yeah absolutely
57:57
angry and also think everyone angry like
58:04
I’m not what is it when they ask me if
58:07
I’m right wing or left wing I say I am
58:09
NOT a bird I like that I like that so
58:14
yeah I just I just I think that the
58:16
world is much more interesting than
58:18
these questions are you know it’s so
58:21
much more so much more interesting and
58:24
it’s sad that we haven’t come to a place
58:26
societally are culturally where we can
58:29
like transcend those labels you know I
58:33
agree I agree the contribute well you’re
58:41
doing your best and I appreciate that
58:43
and in the meantime I’m thoroughly
58:44
enjoying the comments I often come just
58:46
to experience the comments because and I
58:48
know what they’ll be which is the best
58:50
part of it so it’s like I can predict
58:53
with a pretty high degree of certainty
58:55
you know when you’ll post something and
58:56
it’ll mention like the Palestinians and
58:59
they’ll be like
59:01
powers demand you show me their
59:04
Constitution so Chloe there are
59:06
competing theories as to whether or not
59:09
we should reach out to people with the
59:12
most abhorrent views like Nazis or
59:15
whether we should you know whether we
59:19
should you know shame them and try to
59:21
you know destroy them and and and
59:23
whatever whether we should be you know
59:24
reaching out to them and not treat them
59:26
like evil caricatures so that they can
59:28
realize we aren’t evil caricatures and
59:30
maybe they you know shouldn’t be Nazis
59:32
um I think you seem to believe we should
59:35
reach out to them at least to a point um
59:36
the argument against that obviously is
59:39
that by giving Nazis and people like
59:41
that any kind of space or platform
59:43
you’re also giving them the opportunity
59:45
to spread their message and influence
59:46
more people or normalize their beliefs
59:48
or anything like that and and you know I
59:50
mean some would say you know that that
59:53
they could spread their message and
59:54
influence more people possibly even me
59:56
so what do you think about the argument
59:58
and then also to what degree do you
60:00
worry that I could become a Nazi because
60:07
he literally got over 200 white
60:11
nationalist yeah that’s see that’s a
60:20
very powerful data point in your favor
60:22
so you just talk to like he I mean he me
60:26
teachers talk to them over very long
60:28
periods of time like years and years and
60:30
years and eventually just like wore them
60:32
down and I guess by just talk okay fine
60:35
you’re a person right and they
60:38
eventually left and so I guess my
60:41
question would be as a data point how
60:44
many white nationalists have left the
60:47
movement from the strategy of ignoring
60:51
them or and or ostracizing them
60:56
threatening to punch them yeah punch
60:59
them you know versus Davis model I don’t
61:03
really answer to that question it’s
61:04
possible that made me something well I’m
61:06
sure it takes all kinds yeah yeah maybe
61:09
it’s a combination you know of thing but
61:11
I just that data point of Darrell Davis
61:13
realistic just
61:14
out with me also diakon who has a famous
61:19
documentary on Netflix called meet the
61:23
right where she also talks to white
61:24
nationalists and she has an incredible
61:26
interview with a British guy whose name
61:30
I forgot um what’s it called what’s his
61:33
name but look up podcast Oh long Russell
61:39
Brand Russell Brand yes oh she has an
61:42
incredible interview with him which i
61:44
think is like certainly homework for me
61:46
when i was it’s really good yeah it’s
61:49
really really good so good and it sort
61:51
of unpacked like how on why people
61:54
become white nationalists especially
61:55
like how a lot of military people are
61:57
coming back being super depressed and
62:00
traumatised and then being exploited by
62:03
this movement so these are often our
62:04
veterans for being being essentially I
62:07
say I would say stolen from us and into
62:09
these movements and so I’m packing that
62:11
and she really speaks about it
62:13
eloquently it’s critical to learning how
62:16
to get people out of the movement and
62:18
the theory of Enchantment is actually
62:19
going to be used in anti extremist
62:22
organizations to help people who have
62:24
expressed desires who want to leave that
62:26
movement so even the theory of
62:28
enchantments actually involved in a very
62:30
early stages but involved in trying to
62:32
yes combat extremist movements but in a
62:35
very loving way so maybe for for other
62:39
people like again punching punching them
62:41
in the face might be very cathartic and
62:44
emotionally comfortable don’t get
62:46
arrested but right right you know like
62:48
you know and I get that I’m not I I
62:52
don’t think I would necessarily I don’t
62:54
think judgement is what I would dish out
62:56
for that but I would say be mindful this
62:59
is again the Newtonian versus the quanto
63:01
right your the Newtonian view is like
63:04
this person in front of me is a white
63:05
supremacist white supremacist or evil
63:07
punch the light supremacist right right
63:09
right right
63:10
the quantum model is what are the
63:12
factors within this individual’s life
63:15
that got him to where he is today and
63:17
how can i how can i unpack those factors
63:20
in a way that will that will help him to
63:23
grow and eventually move out of the
63:24
movement it’s just two different ways of
63:26
viewing and I happen to subscribe
63:28
so that second few right right and of
63:31
course caring for your safety first and
63:33
foremost like I mean you you don’t go
63:35
into it no but what I mean is like okay
63:39
so you don’t you don’t go to like a
63:41
cross burning and go hey guys you know
63:43
maybe this is a bit much ya know yeah
63:54
we’re not recommending this but man for
64:02
years white nationalist rallies and just
64:05
talk to people and eventually over 200
64:08
of them left I don’t know what that says
64:10
but I know it says something it
64:11
definitely says something that you
64:13
haven’t firstly you know what it says is
64:14
that the cojones the cuts above this man
64:17
this is a self-assured man up to a white
64:22
nationalist rally as an obvious black
64:25
man tell me why you doing that is that
64:32
is yeah I’ll see it the next one okay
64:39
yeah I think you’re wrong but we’ll talk
64:41
later like that’s that is impressive I
64:44
would say so here’s my recommendation
64:45
because I would say you know maybe not
64:48
the day I can’t I can I don’t want
64:50
people walking away from this going like
64:52
well you know Nazis are people too I’m
64:53
gonna go hang out there yeah don’t do
64:57
that I would not recommend that okay my
65:00
recommendation would be if you are going
65:02
to reach out to them you do so in it a
65:06
space you’re gonna feel comfortable in
65:08
and apparently for him that was a cross
65:09
burning he was comfortable in that space
65:12
so gonna be a place that you feel
65:14
comfortable and I mean but ya know it
65:18
it’s that’s another thing but actually
65:27
helping trip because the thing is I
65:29
bench a lot of conferences on extremism
65:30
and if people don’t realize that
65:31
extremism it’s like alcoholism like you
65:34
have to go to like a 12-step program to
65:36
get right and so if you can volunteer
65:38
for organizations that are helping
65:40
people get out of those
65:42
that’s another way that you can
65:43
contribute to society yeah and it speaks
65:49
to the fact that I am NOT saying Nazis
65:52
are that Nazi Nazis UM’s wrong the Klan
65:55
is wrong these things are wrong they’re
65:57
unequivocally wrong
65:59
it speaks to something that these are
66:01
people who obviously think they’re doing
66:03
something right and yet when a black man
66:05
comes up a good number of them actually
66:08
even in that moment felt comfortable
66:11
communicating with this person and and
66:13
it says that these groups are not Sauron
66:16
these groups are not the the the the
66:20
yeah thank you thank you I try to you
66:22
know pop culture like because Tolkien’s
66:24
pop could pop go to hundred-year-old
66:26
stories pop culture 100 year old story
66:28
um these are not the monoliths that we
66:32
create and there are certainly bad
66:34
actors in them just like there’s bad
66:36
actors everywhere but a lot of them are
66:38
scared like a lot of them are doing it
66:40
because they are scared of this
66:41
caricature that’s been created of them
66:43
the Mexicans and the blacks and the
66:44
Muslims are coming to rape their women
66:46
and to erase their identity and they’re
66:49
you know they’re they’re gonna make us
66:50
do this and do that and we have to stop
66:52
them we have to band together we’re a
66:53
dwindling minority of people we have to
66:55
band together and fight against them and
66:57
that’s that narrative has so many
66:58
problems with it and and it’s it’s
67:00
clearly false but just seeing a black
67:04
person wanted to be friends with them
67:06
for a good number of them is gonna be
67:08
enough for them be like oh I didn’t know
67:12
you wanted to be friends now for a lot
67:15
of them no but yeah yeah like this is my
67:20
again holistic mess right like my
67:23
thinking on this was affected it’s not
67:26
just it’s not just thinking about it’s
67:28
thinking about all forms of extremism
67:29
right so like I I volunteer in Brooklyn
67:32
for an organization called children of
67:33
promise which mentor mentors kids whose
67:36
parents are incarcerated like they will
67:39
become incarcerated through the roof
67:41
yeah yeah so they need structures in
67:44
place so they can have mentorship that
67:45
where we basically essentially tell them
67:47
that we believe in them and this is yeah
67:49
but that’s the same it’s interesting
67:52
because it’s the same thing it’s the
67:54
same
67:55
I think so I I know okay I have met I
67:59
have mentored I have tutored little kids
68:01
boys in particular the likelihood who’s
68:05
like we heard of him joining a gay is so
68:07
hot because of the missing structures in
68:09
their family right and what what’s crazy
68:13
about that is that for some of the young
68:16
white kids white boys who are
68:18
susceptible of joining white nationalist
68:21
groups these same these two totally
68:25
different groups one is a bunch of let’s
68:27
say poor white kids and one is a bunch
68:29
of poor black kids they’re same factors
68:32
or are at work yes in factors of
68:35
fatherlessness the same factors on the
68:37
feeling of abandonment social
68:38
abandonment the same factors of
68:40
isolation are at work and and see that’s
68:44
that quantum physics level of analysis
68:45
right that’s not like cute and this is
68:48
fiscal speaks my problem that I have on
68:50
the right right because the rights
68:52
problem the less problem is that the
68:55
intersectional left has no way of
68:57
dealing with white nationalism in the
69:00
way that we’ve been talking about right
69:01
right right
69:02
white supremacy as like alcoholism which
69:06
is requires a 12-step program to get out
69:08
right right but but the right also
69:11
doesn’t understand that when it comes
69:14
across young black kids who may be
69:17
acting out who may be acting in a way
69:19
that’s aggressive or harmful they miss
69:23
some of them and they will say crazy
69:26
things you know thugs yeah yep yep super
69:30
caricaturing yep that that is the exact
69:33
same model of what the left is doing for
69:37
white supremacist right and that isn’t
69:39
to say that like this is not about
69:41
comparing and contrasting this is not
69:43
about saying that like if you think that
69:44
your your supremacist by virtue of your
69:47
skin color then what you are doing is
69:50
better or worse than a kid who wants to
69:53
go bang up another community because
69:56
that community is being ripped by
69:57
another gay right this isn’t about
69:59
comparing and contrasting you know the
70:01
the lack of ethics in both of these
70:04
slivers of communities right it’s about
70:07
trying to unpack
70:08
where they come from where they stem
70:10
from and trying to put in place a model
70:13
that can heal and also can prevent right
70:17
because again going back to
70:19
conversations around movies or films
70:23
like when they see us how can we
70:25
actually combat the punitive nature of
70:27
the way we think about how to deal with
70:30
crime or how to deal with bad behavior
70:33
right right so the same the same thing
70:37
that I’m saying which is applicable to
70:40
dealing in some in some cases with some
70:43
white supremacist it’s the same thing
70:45
that is a preventive white supremacist
70:48
from from actually sprouting up of
70:51
communities it’s the same thing that’s
70:53
applicable to why we should be talking
70:57
about mentoring these younger black kids
70:59
that are in situations know salts of
71:02
their own well actually be why should we
71:04
we should be shoring them up we should
71:06
be telling them we believe in them right
71:09
because we know that the outcome will be
71:11
better and the right does not do that I
71:13
was I was just on Vinci perros website
71:15
um he has a list of retractions and but
71:18
but like halfway down the list it’s like
71:20
stuff I’ve said that’s the left took out
71:22
of context and one of them was basically
71:26
saying that like if you have an EBT card
71:28
and you’re sagging your pants and you
71:31
don’t and you’re wearing a fitted cap
71:32
this is a tweet he said a few years ago
71:35
but he just read just áfive a tweet last
71:37
year and he said if you have all this
71:40
your likelihood of success is 0% and
71:43
then he said the left didn’t understand
71:45
if they called me racist but they’re a
71:47
bunch of white people that fit this
71:48
description so the left is being racist
71:50
bla bla bla and my butt is still wrong
71:51
it’s still nut with this weight it’s not
71:58
just about that skin yeah like like like
72:01
what you appreciate appreciates so if
72:05
you can see value if you can see human
72:07
worth you can see potential in that you
72:10
just described then the likelihood and
72:13
you invest in that potential then the
72:15
likelihood that they will be successful
72:16
it’s actually not a zero percent but you
72:19
have to have a world view that is
72:21
holistic
72:22
to see that and to make you desire to
72:25
invest in that so it’s any community I
72:27
could talk about a black kid in the
72:29
inner city of Chicago I could talk about
72:30
a white kid in opioid infested Virginia
72:35
I could talk about a Hispanic kid was
72:37
dealing with various issues this is the
72:38
human right and and and Jordan Peterson
72:44
talks about this as well but it’s it’s a
72:46
it’s especially with boys but really
72:48
just people in general with girls too
72:51
if you take a human being and as a child
72:54
they have no direction
72:55
they have no idea what they’re doing
72:56
they’ve probably been told at least once
72:58
that they were a mistake they were or at
73:00
least it was in or at least even if it
73:02
wasn’t actually said just the way that
73:04
they’re being treated is as though they
73:06
were a mistake and an unwanted mistake
73:08
that the people now fully regret that
73:11
having made and now you’ve got a group
73:14
whether it’s a gang an extremist group
73:18
or even um the military who goes to them
73:21
and says no you have a purpose we’re
73:24
gonna give you a purpose we have a
73:26
purpose for you you have amazing purpose
73:28
you’re gonna protect your people or your
73:31
country or your neighborhood from these
73:33
horrible scumbags over there who think
73:35
all the terrible things about you that
73:36
we don’t believe and we’re gonna and
73:39
we’re gonna we’re gonna go we’re gonna
73:40
we’re gonna fight against them and and
73:42
you know you’re going to I don’t know so
73:45
much with the white supremacist groups
73:46
but definitely with the gangs and with
73:47
the military they’re like you’re gonna
73:49
profit too you’re gonna you’re gonna
73:50
make something of yourself you’re gonna
73:51
come out of this stronger and better
73:53
I’m sure the the white supremacist
73:55
groups and that the extremist groups do
73:56
something the I mean the terrorist
73:58
groups al Qaeda says well when you die
74:00
not only do you go to paradise we give
74:03
your family money so I mean these are
74:06
people that have no hope and they’re
74:07
being given hope the hope is incredibly
74:09
toxic and it’s going to harm lots and
74:11
lots of people but it’s it’s the it’s
74:13
the same thing and I like what you’re
74:15
saying especially getting them when
74:16
they’re young so that you don’t have to
74:18
be uh what’s the guy’s name again that
74:21
went to the Klan rallies yes so you
74:25
don’t feel like Darrell Davis and go to
74:26
Klan rallies with adults keep them on
74:28
their kids really exactly but but
74:33
imagine if you can get them as
74:35
kids where they might call you the
74:37
n-word or something but you don’t really
74:39
fear for your life as much you know this
74:41
this is a place that you can actually
74:43
get them so um Chloe I have to ask you
74:47
yes you’ve been following me for years
74:49
now and yet somehow you are still not an
74:54
anarchist
74:58
why why why but I’m speaking to you you
75:15
are basically like the free folk in-game
75:18
yes yes that’s yes I respect the free
75:25
folk tremendously but I actually like
75:28
believes in the state and like in the
75:31
existence of the state and I don’t think
75:33
it has I think that we have a differing
75:37
of difference of opinions in terms of
75:39
like the ethics of the existence of the
75:41
state so I think like big picture and
75:44
like like to summarize it that’s why I’m
75:47
not an artist it’s kind of hard to be an
75:52
a neuroscientist yes that’s fair enough
75:54
fair enough and and in the spirit of the
75:56
theory of Enchantment I will agree to
75:58
disagree with you and continue to have
76:00
an open dialogue with you because I know
76:02
that we haven’t all ascended yet and and
76:05
we haven’t all reached ascendancy which
76:09
at which I achieved a few days ago when
76:12
I changed my mind on a couple of things
76:13
and okay now I’ve now reached the
76:18
pinnacle of both knowledge and humility
76:20
and I am there I’ve got the multiple you
76:26
can’t you can’t see them because you’re
76:28
where you are but but I do have the
76:30
multiple hands and the whole the flow
76:32
you hand thing that’s I forgot my
76:35
question the hand thing I also just
76:43
think that like like our desire as a
76:47
species to
76:49
I have expressions of the collective is
76:54
it very like it’s very rooted in our DNA
76:56
and that you can see that in like sports
77:00
you can see that in the existence of
77:02
countries so I think it’s like now just
77:06
to say that it’s natural doesn’t mean
77:07
it’s good right there excesses of the
77:09
state obviously but I do think that it
77:12
can be it can be conditioned towards it
77:14
good I you know what again
77:18
we’re not we’re not all here but I will
77:21
say this yeah I am NOT and I think
77:23
there’s a misconception that I think
77:24
we’re all island that you know every man
77:25
is an island and that’s certainly not
77:27
the case like you said sports you know
77:29
people join leagues and doing teams and
77:33
they they play against each other and
77:34
now hardcore anarchists will say well
77:36
that’s a that’s a conditioning from the
77:38
states no no it’s not it’s not an
77:40
abstraction it’s hundreds of thousands
77:42
of years of biological evolution where
77:44
we seek out patterns in order to protect
77:46
ourselves from dying and and and now it
77:49
expresses itself in far more mundane
77:51
ways like your bowling league or your
77:53
your you know chess club or whatever and
77:55
and so I I don’t I think that there are
77:57
natural hierarchies I think that the
77:59
actual state like forced Association
78:02
through government I think that there
78:03
are better ways to do the things that
78:05
need to Det that we that we all agree
78:07
need to be achieved or most of us agree
78:10
need to be achieved not like those
78:12
people but the the people that we agree
78:15
to disagree with um but but anyway we
78:18
have time you have time we have time you
78:20
know we’re gonna have conversations
78:22
this is holistic you’re not Newtonian
78:24
and I’m not gonna treat you like that so
78:31
it’s real listen I mean I haven’t done
78:33
the course but I reading reading what
78:36
I’ve read and listening to what I’ve
78:37
listened to I’m like yes this is yes I
78:41
don’t do this I don’t do this because
78:43
you know my post I’m like very like if
78:46
you think this then prove me yourself
78:49
right I am but it’s kind of like a
78:53
passive-aggressive sarcasm where I’m
78:56
like oh yeah you know my thing is like
78:58
I’m like well prove you actually believe
79:00
this bye and I create some absurdist
79:01
constructor
79:03
if you have to agree with but I’m right
79:04
but am i right just be clear so Chloe
79:08
before I give you the floor to give your
79:10
final thoughts probably most important
79:11
part of this show right now um I’m gonna
79:14
give you this opportunity to explain to
79:15
our viewers and listeners exactly how
79:17
much better I am than Dave urban and and
79:20
specific reasons specific reasons as to
79:24
why that is it take as much time as you
79:25
need I mean your qualities I don’t like
79:37
what this is going I don’t know I think
79:40
I think that you’re much more funny yeah
79:48
I think you make well that was in studio
79:51
but I think I think for me this is just
79:53
a personal thing like if my the person
79:55
interviewing me is funny it makes me way
79:57
more comfortable and it like makes me
80:00
take it less seriously which is great
80:02
because I give my best material when I
80:05
don’t take it I and you should
80:07
definitely not take the show seriously
80:09
at all no I certainly don’t
80:10
oh let me rephrase this and it may be in
80:12
a different way that that’s more helpful
80:14
how many Dave Reubens would it take to
80:17
make a spike Cohen I think 20 yes good
80:23
I’m going with that I’m good with that
80:24
I’m good with that I’m officially 20
80:27
times better than Dave Rubin and my
80:29
ratings will reflect that it’s what it’s
80:34
how I took it
80:34
and and I live in my truth and and and
80:39
and you know which I hate that phrase my
80:42
truth but I but in this moment it’s
80:44
perfect this moment I in in my in my
80:48
truth it makes perfect it perfectly fits
80:51
with my beliefs right now so it’s
80:53
definitely that that is that is that is
80:55
I will take that and my ratings will
80:57
clearly reflect that reality shortly
81:01
pretty much would this episode moving
81:02
forward um Chloe it’s been an absolute
81:04
pleasure to have you on I have had I
81:08
have had so much fun having you on and
81:10
I’m so glad that I that you could take
81:13
the time to do this um and I just want
81:16
to give you a chance
81:17
I’ll let you go to give any final
81:19
thoughts of anything and and it take as
81:21
much time as you need any final thoughts
81:23
that you have that you feel like we
81:24
didn’t get to address fully they’d like
81:26
to fully flesh out anything that you
81:28
would like to plug anything that you
81:31
would like to tell people about whatever
81:33
you want to say you can say anything
81:36
that you want to say Chloe Valerie the
81:38
floor is yours interview as you know I
81:46
have a curriculum online that I’m
81:49
selling so the normal price is actually
81:52
seven hundred and fifty bucks and you
81:54
get a year’s worth of access to the
81:55
curriculum but if you type in coupon
81:58
named Spike Cohen all cats no space no
82:02
space the crew the curriculum will cost
82:04
three hundred and sixty bucks which is
82:06
thirty bucks a month so that’s a
82:09
discount I will be giving to spike
82:11
Cohen’s listeners and I hope you enroll
82:13
and enjoy I think you’ll get a lot out
82:15
of the program it’s certainly then a
82:16
self authoring process for me it’s
82:19
actually put together the program and I
82:20
hope that you learn as much as I have
82:23
learned and grow as much as I’m trying
82:25
to grow from engaging with this
82:27
curriculum thank you so much and thank
82:31
you for that generous generous discount
82:33
for our viewers spike Cohen all caps no
82:36
space do not put a space I swear to God
82:39
do not put a space in there and yeah
82:42
thank you again for joining us and guys
82:45
thank you again for tuning in my fellow
82:47
Americans it has been an absolute
82:49
pleasure and I’m glad you could
82:51
experience that pleasure with me it’s
82:52
Mike going in Chloe um be sure to tune
82:55
in tomorrow Thursday night for the
82:58
writer’s block where Matt Wright is
83:00
going to be interviewing someone I don’t
83:05
know who but he’ll be interviewing that
83:07
person and it will be amazing and so be
83:10
sure to tune in to that tune in Friday
83:12
for the Shabbat episode of mr. America
83:15
the bearded truth by the I don’t he’s a
83:18
Gentile but I’m calling it a Shabbat
83:20
episode with Jason Lyon have a great
83:23
weekend and then tune in next Monday for
83:25
mr. maryk of the beard truth teen on
83:27
Shabbat the fully Gentile episode of mr.
83:29
maryk has appeared the truth with Jason
83:30
and tune in next Tuesday for the money
83:33
waters of freedom where Matt Wright and
83:35
I parsed through the week’s events with
83:38
the the hilarity and innocence of a
83:41
child that’s that’s what I do and then
83:44
tune in again next Wednesday where I
83:46
will be having Brent de Ridder who is
83:48
with the Libertarian Party of North
83:50
Carolina and is also gonna be doing
83:52
something called the Liberty loop where
83:53
he is taking his family on a houseboat
83:55
journey around the country somehow I’m
84:00
not sure how a houseboat goes around the
84:01
country
84:02
if you don’t know be sure to tune in
84:04
don’t forget the code and again
84:06
stop lying Denny’s hash tag stop lying
84:08
Denny’s and I will see you next week and
84:11
God bless you
84:13
[Music]


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Spike Cohen
Spike Cohen
Local Jew. Contrarian stoic sentimentalist. Antidisestablishmentarianism. Will pet your dog.