(((My Fellow Americans))) #38: The Theory of Enchantment with Chloé Valdary

DISCLOSURE

FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT

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and now you’re watching my fellow
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fellow Americans I am literally spike
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Cohen I’m so glad to have you here with
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me tonight have we got a show for you
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this show this is also the first episode
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take an opportunity to thank to say to
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shout out to Tama on Turkish mononym as
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always guys before I introduce my guest
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tonight I’d like to take a moment of
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talk about something that has absolutely
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outraged me and something that I think
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that if left unaddressed will tear the
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very fabric of this nation apart um you
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see I was recently at Denny’s with my
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wife and we’re just looking at the menu
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like a normal person
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looking at the menu everything looks
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fine and then and I see this look at
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that
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oh let you look a little closer look at
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that now
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to the untrained eye you may be thinking
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what’s the problem here there’s no
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problem I’d see wild Alaskan salmon okay
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let me let me this is not wild Alaskan
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salmon look at that that is what they
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call wild Alaskan salmon which they are
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selling for $11 wild Alaskan salmon
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which looks like this $11 for this which
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is supposed to be wild Alaskan salmon
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now let me explain why this is a lie and
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why you should be as outraged as me
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first of all that’s not what while the
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Alaskan salmon looks like okay let’s
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just be clear that’s I mean what salmon
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looks like and salmon isn’t white salmon
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is pink and wild Alaskan salmon is red
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that’s why people get it because it’s
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red and it tastes amazing it is the best
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thing I eat it almost every day and it
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is amazing that is not wild Alaskan
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salmon and if it was wild Alaskan salmon
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there was no way that they could sell it
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at that price point you can’t sell wild
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Alaskan salmon for 1139 you can sell
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this whatever this is for 1139 that
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could be chicken I don’t know what that
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is but you could sell that for 1139
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easily I don’t know what it is I don’t
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want it but you could definitely sell it
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for that much but definitely not actual
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wild Alaskan salmon
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not that whatever that is yes okay
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here’s the real problem and this is what
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makes me the most upset your Denny’s you
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are Denny’s okay no one is coming and
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expecting wild Alaskan salmon on the
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menu all right they’re coming late at
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night they’re expecting breakfast food
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maybe like a case
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or chicken fingers half of them are
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intoxicated claiming that you have wild
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Alaskan salmon on your menu provides
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absolutely no value for you or for the
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customer this is just lying for the sake
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of lying it accomplished accomplishes
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absolutely nothing and I just just stop
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the lies Denny’s stop the damn lies just
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stop it
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guys now I’d like to introduce my guest
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my guest tonight is a world-renowned
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author speaker activist and recently a
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podcaster as well she got her start in
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politics back in college where she
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started a pro-israel advocacy group she
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went on to become a director at
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Jerusalem you she’s been featured in The
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Wall Street Journal where she was a
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Robert L Bartley fellow this is the
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fancy show we’re having a fancy show
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today okay Robert L Bartley fellow wall
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street journal she was also featured on
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New York Times the Atlantic tablet
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Prager University
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The Times of Israel and many other
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publications she is currently the
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creator of the theory of Enchantment
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which is a lecture series and a
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framework of conflict resolution and
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interpersonal growth rooted in themes
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found in pop culture here’s a quick
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promo about the theory of Enchantment
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so here are the three principles very
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simple number one remember that we are
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human beings not political abstraction
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number two if you want to criticize
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someone whose behavior you find bad or
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problematic criticize in order to uplift
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and empower never to tear down never to
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destroy and number three everything we
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do we want a root and love and
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compassion ladies and gentlemen please
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welcome to my fellow Americans the
08:23
amazing and talented MS Chloe
08:25
Valerie Chloe thank you so much for
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coming to my fellow Americans I have had
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the pleasure the honor if you will of
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watching you bloom from an awkward
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little full into the beautiful graceful
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elegant lady stallion that I see before
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me today and guys be sure to comment
08:46
with any questions or thoughts that you
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have and Chloe and I will tell you if
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you are right or wrong
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now Chloe the the first thing I always
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ask new guests when they come on is how
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you would describe your political
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beliefs and would you say that you kind
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of got there as kind of an aha moment or
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was sort of a gradual evolution over
09:01
time great I guess if that’s like a way
09:09
of exercising politics is to not do it
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or not be engaged in it there are
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political implications for what I do
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obviously but I would say my aha moment
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for sort of not wanting to exist
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exclusively or primarily within the
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realm of politics actually happened when
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I was in college and it wasn’t really an
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aha moment it was more of the series of
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events or sort of like an event that
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happened within a classroom that totally
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gave me anxiety and depression and made
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me rethink my entire world narrative so
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I took a class called anthropology of
09:47
religion magic in witchcraft and at that
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point I had been super religious in a
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sort of dogmatic way and I was taught
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and conditioned to believe that you know
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if you acted a certain way or believed
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in a certain way then you were sort of
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on my side
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if you didn’t and you were the enemy
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right I tell you as the enemy whatever
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that means
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and I was in this class and I had a
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professor was atheist and liberal and so
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I had all these preconceived notions
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about her because I grew up in a pretty
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conservative home and one time we had
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just seen Jesus camp which is a
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documentary about evangelicals and there
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was another student in the class was
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also also atheist and she attacked the
10:30
evangelical community in that
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documentary and then my atheist liberal
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professor actually defended the
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evangelicals depicted in that
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documentary right I’ve never seen
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anything like that and that totally
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screwed me up because it screwed up my
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sense of sort of like the hero and
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villain
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I guess conceptualization of the world
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that I had right right and that forced
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me to rethink the narrative I had been
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running in my mind about what is good
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and what is bad I think that that was
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the catalyst that paved the way for me
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to stop thinking and just like these big
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political abstractions and start really
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trying to think about the complexities
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and nuances of life and the the
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nonzero-sum game that life is so you
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were you experienced a lot of distress
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at the thought that there was way more
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nuance to the world than you than you
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thought previously yes yeah it’s it’s a
11:32
good thing but it’s actually right now I
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now I remember this kind of speaks to
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what you were just talking about I
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remember first finding out about you
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online as I remember all things it was
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January 6th of 2014 around
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2:48 p.m. ish Eastern um this is I don’t
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know exactly when it was probably around
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that time though this is around that it
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was around the time that you were making
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waves with your zionist activism the
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whole like throw block woman who’s young
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and and you also appeared at least to me
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at the time to be pretty conservative
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not necessarily Hannity esque but maybe
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Hannity adjacent
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the adjacent I get you know what I write
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which honestly would have described me
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well – at the time I was very
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conservative at the time what would you
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like to say to 2014 Chloe right now the
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sort of I have to go through the like
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righteous indignation Chloe in order to
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come to the moment that I am now so I
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wouldn’t necessarily change anything I
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did that younger Chloe that there is
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more there will be more to discover
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about my world and about capital-t truth
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and that this is just that this may seem
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like the most pressing moment in your
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sort of I guess career I was in college
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then I was also like working for various
13:12
organizations and so it may seem like
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the most pressing moment in your career
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I mean you’re sort of Widing riding this
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wave where people are like praising you
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and things like that but right this is a
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journey this is an intellectual journey
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this is a philosophical journey that
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you’re just now getting started on and
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so like keep that in mind as you like in
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front of rallies don’t take yourself too
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seriously with all right now I’ve asked
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that question before and I was told that
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the correct answer is that you shouldn’t
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say anything because that the
13:53
grandfather paradox and that crushes to
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collapse a space in time or something
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like that’s like a right your answer is
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is is I like your answer better because
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it’s easier than someone being difficult
14:05
and trying to explain you know quantum
14:06
mechanics on the show and and and and
14:09
that the paradox of time but now let me
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ask you this I think I know the answer
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to this do you still consider yourself a
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Zionist or is that somewhat evolved as
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well but even the way that manifests
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itself in my life is very different than
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the way it did in 2014 right now is a
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scale of 1 to 10 how much do you
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we want to argue with me about Israel
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zero if you were to ask me in 2014 let’s
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do it let’s let’s go yeah yeah yeah now
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you might say something that I disagree
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with and I’ll be like well you know it’s
14:48
gonna be interesting for anyone it isn’t
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gonna be interesting no and I and I like
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my whole thing is that you know the
14:56
things that people want to say about
14:57
Israel whether you agree with them or
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not whether they’re true or not or
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conversely a lot of the things that you
15:05
could want to say about Hamas sure you
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know it’s like a which which in my mind
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and you can disagree with this but it’s
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almost like okay which bad actor are we
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picking here
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and when I say Israel and Hamas I’m not
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talking about individual people within
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and I mean that the people in the
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leadership positions who in my mind
15:24
sometimes don’t seem to care much about
15:25
that the people that is that it’s
15:27
affecting it’s similar to how it is here
15:29
but um so ya know we wouldn’t have to
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argue about that 20:19 like I wouldn’t
15:40
even necessarily disagree with you right
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that’s a great point that’s a great
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point you know people like the you know
15:50
sometimes it’s um you know I try to be
15:51
an alternative to the McLaughlin group
15:53
style of you know you’re wrong really
16:00
crazy that’s well then you know what I’m
16:04
talking about
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yeah McLaughlin group Morton Downey jr.
16:09
all of that stuff is just that might
16:12
have been that’s probably before your
16:13
time but the yeah that one’s that’s
16:15
before that’s before your time he
16:17
basically said there’s a segment we’re
16:19
probably most famous Morton Downey
16:21
junior segment this is pre Jerry
16:22
Springer and all that he would bring
16:24
people on and um call them idiots
16:27
and stupid whiny liberals and like stuff
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like that this was like groundbreaking
16:32
this was before even I think even before
16:34
see it this is before Ben Shapiro was
16:37
born probably and this was before any of
16:40
the cable news networks it was not like
16:43
this and certainly
16:43
from a conservative view and one of my
16:45
favorite skits is
16:47
segments or whatever was Ron Paul was on
16:49
there trying to explain everyone
16:51
everyone white all drugs should be legal
16:53
and he was like telling people like well
16:55
you’re fat maybe we should make that
16:56
illegal like that that was the show with
16:58
everyone just insulting each other so
17:00
we’re trying to be the opposite of that
17:01
but maybe not so much where it’s just
17:03
like us only just saying how like
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awesome and agreeable we are to each
17:07
other
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so speaking of being agreeable or I
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guess maybe maybe not the theory of
17:13
Enchantment that’s that’s where you what
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you’re doing right now I’ve read all
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this stuff and I was listening to your
17:19
podcasts on it and I died I don’t want
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to spoil it and so I’d rather you start
17:24
with it but I do want to ask you this
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when you started this what did you see
17:28
that was missing in the public discourse
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and how do you believe that theory of
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Enchantment fills that void and and also
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what is it even because no one even
17:35
knows what I’m talking about the world
17:42
of entrepreneurship this year and
17:45
creative LLC found an LLC in January so
17:49
Thurman Chapman is really an educational
17:51
consulting firm that provides a very
17:53
unique curriculum to different sectors
17:56
of society so whether it’s individuals
17:57
organizations companies and it really
18:00
teaches these sectors of society how to
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navigate basically how to have better
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relationships with each other how the
18:06
community better and all this
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contributes to mental health and
18:10
wellness it contributes to how we think
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about that versus that I always get this
18:15
wrong when I present diversity and
18:19
inclusion Department should actually
18:20
operate it informs how we think a
18:25
holistic society should look and the
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reason why I wanted to create this was
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what I was working for Israel
18:32
organizations I was trying to
18:34
essentially help Jewish students deal
18:36
with anti-semitism on college campuses
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navigate that space and what I
18:40
discovered was that there’s a lot of
18:42
vocabulary in our culture about how to
18:44
combat racism or combat prejudice how to
18:48
combat hatred there is hardly any
18:51
there’s hardly no vocabulary about how
18:54
to actually love and that’s a skill set
18:57
that work
18:57
quite a practice that requires rewiring
19:00
the brain to sort of look at individuals
19:03
and groups and communities in different
19:05
ways and that really isn’t being
19:07
packaged in a way that’s marketable to
19:10
the communities or to society as a whole
19:12
and I really wanted to provide that
19:13
service because of that gap that’s very
19:16
interesting so you think so you this
19:19
came about because you think people are
19:21
focusing too much on fighting the hate
19:23
as opposed to saying well you know we
19:26
could love instead of hate and and
19:28
present that as kind of a I guess a
19:30
viable alternative right and so the
19:33
thing I always love to say is that
19:35
combating hate is important but it’s
19:38
actually not the same thing as learning
19:40
how to love it and if you actually teach
19:43
people how to learn how to love that can
19:45
in the long run end up combating the
19:48
hate but it’s a very different thing to
19:50
go to someone and say you know I don’t
19:53
hate you because you did this really
19:55
aggressive immoral thing and so I’m just
19:57
gonna tell you I hate you so I’m just
19:58
gonna be on my way like that hasn’t
20:00
necessarily changed and I win I win by
20:04
telling you I hate you and I win and
20:05
then you walk away its combating the
20:10
hate in the sense that it’s emotionally
20:12
rewarding for you right yes but it’s not
20:15
really combating the right so there
20:19
needs to be a discourse in the
20:20
vocabulary and a set of practices that
20:22
people in organizations and institutions
20:24
can actually engage in that can bring
20:27
about that better society that sounds
20:30
good so in the video we watched earlier
20:33
you laid out the three principles behind
20:35
the theory of Enchantment for the people
20:37
that are like me who are severely a d8d
20:40
maybe um can we just break down a little
20:43
bit what each of those principles are
20:45
and and also on the face of it I think
20:48
it you know hearing any of those things
20:50
I think most people would agree with
20:51
them on their face where do you think it
20:53
breaks down where it’s not actually
20:54
happening remember that we are human
20:59
beings not political abstractions number
21:02
to criticize to uplift and empower never
21:05
to tear down never to destroy and number
21:08
three root everything you do in loving
21:10
compassion
21:11
now as you said this sounds like common
21:13
sense yeah of course we’re not we’re all
21:16
humans right right right we’re not
21:18
robots
21:19
Chloe right but actually the first
21:22
principle is the first principle because
21:23
it’s so critical and because typically
21:26
especially in like spaces where there’s
21:28
political disagreement of a hyper
21:30
partisan nature this entire principle
21:32
gets thrown out of the window and people
21:34
don’t realize that people come to form
21:36
their own political opinions as a
21:38
product of who they are as very common
21:41
being do different things they value and
21:44
the different things they ascribe
21:45
meaning toward anything they’ve
21:47
experienced in all sorts of stuff yeah
21:49
exactly all that baggage of things they
21:52
grew up with all of the all that
21:55
complexity informs who they are today
21:57
right and so to come to a person with
22:00
equipped with that knowledge and ready
22:02
to speak to that person aware of what
22:05
makes up their complex selves you’re
22:06
much more likely to be persuasive and
22:08
relatable in getting your point across
22:11
as opposed to seeing that person as just
22:14
an abstraction of very pigeonhole
22:16
stereotype that you can just assume
22:18
things about when in fact you know
22:19
nothing about them and nothing about
22:20
their life isn’t just about this isn’t
22:23
just about political disagreements it’s
22:24
about disagreements of any nature right
22:27
it’s just about being able to navigate
22:30
the human condition that that we are
22:32
forced with today right and so yes that
22:37
first principle seems very obvious but
22:39
when you if you were to enroll in the
22:41
curriculum that I built what it breaks
22:43
down into it’s actually learning what it
22:45
means to be a human being and what it
22:47
means to be a human being is to as I
22:49
mentioned earlier it means that you have
22:50
all these insecurities that you have to
22:53
man that you have feelings of
22:54
vulnerability how do you how do you deal
22:56
with feelings of vulnerability how do
22:58
you feel like deal with feelings of
23:00
inadequacy and incompetence and how you
23:03
first understand the first principle as
23:06
applied to the self because as it turns
23:08
out you can’t be in relationship with
23:10
other people if you don’t have a healthy
23:12
relationship with yourself so once you
23:14
learn how to apply to the self you can
23:16
learn how to apply to the other and send
23:18
for the second principle like once you
23:20
internalized the first principle then
23:22
this idea of criticizing in order
23:24
uplift and empower not to tear down
23:26
people becomes almost second nature
23:28
because now you’re equipped with this
23:31
awareness of the idea of like people
23:33
having internal work or worthiness and
23:36
that also may sound cliche that’s
23:39
something like that a lot of people were
23:40
raised with or a lot of people are a few
23:42
people on Twitter tell me they were
23:43
raised with that but it doesn’t seem
23:46
like it when you write each in a lot of
23:49
the discourses that were having in
23:51
society today people will say people
23:54
will say you know I was raised you know
23:56
to treat people like people and to you
23:59
know and to you know relate to their
24:01
common experience not like these
24:02
monsters out here you know these
24:04
scumbags we have to stop them from from
24:07
you know spreading their intolerant way
24:09
anyone going exactly that it’s funny you
24:12
say that because you know there’s an
24:14
incredibly poignant film out right or
24:18
it’s not a film it’s sort of like a
24:19
series of episodes when they see us
24:21
which is a very thing on Netflix to
24:25
watch yeah but you should watch it
24:27
because it’s it’s important and I think
24:28
one of the things are highlights is like
24:30
the military effects of the punitive
24:33
system of our criminal justice system
24:36
and how it sort of rewards these sort of
24:39
hyper prosecutorial I guess outlooks on
24:45
life and how that creates problems
24:47
especially for inner-city communities
24:49
and people of color know what’s what’s
24:51
so interesting about this is that like
24:53
embedded within this sort of cultural
24:56
phenomenon of a film is this idea that
24:58
we should actually be we should be
25:01
combating the punitive nature of our
25:04
criminal justice department and at the
25:08
same time we have people this is the
25:11
great irony to your point we have we
25:13
have people who are basically saying the
25:16
punitive system is wrong and so we need
25:19
to totally destroy the prosecutor who
25:23
prosecuted the kids we must punish them
25:27
we must punish the punishes yeah
25:29
interesting right and what the film is
25:37
supposed to me
25:38
– yeah but actually have to dig even
25:40
deeper it’s it’s proof that we haven’t
25:42
actually fully internalized the message
25:44
of the self not absolutely because it’s
25:48
like on the one hand we’re like the
25:49
punitive system sucks but let’s do the
25:51
punitive system as applied and we have
25:54
to have a much more holistic you know
25:56
view of how we want to really implement
25:59
ways of healing our society it can’t be
26:02
a zero sum game it can’t be like we have
26:05
to heal one community well like bashing
26:07
another community we have to approach it
26:09
in a very holistic manner yeah yeah I
26:11
agree it’s funny cuz I as you know I’m
26:13
an anarchist and in anarchists circles
26:15
there is a very interesting paradox that
26:18
many of them have not all but many of
26:19
them have where they’re pretty in a very
26:21
similar vein to what you were saying
26:22
where it’s like you know these people
26:24
are controlling us and they’re you know
26:26
being violent they’re trying to you know
26:27
force us into these things and we have
26:29
to stop them we have to form together
26:30
and we have to take them and put them on
26:32
trial and then guillotine them and I’m
26:34
like okay this sounds very very
26:38
suspiciously similar to what it is you
26:41
are saying you’re against and we saw it
26:43
with the French Revolution we yet we saw
26:45
and to some extent with the American
26:46
Revolution you saw you know this
26:48
resistance to injustice which went from
26:51
being sort of a defensive act into
26:53
becoming a you know what it marks call
26:56
it a dictatorship of the proletariat
26:57
where the the abusers peak they abused
27:01
become the abusers and vice versa and
27:04
all this happened is you know who’s
27:05
holding which you know who has which
27:08
role and that that flick you said that
27:10
feels good to the people that are now
27:13
the abusers but you’re just continuing
27:14
that cycle and if you look at it like
27:16
you said from a holistic standpoint you
27:19
didn’t help anything chief like you went
27:21
and made it now you’re the bad guy that
27:24
that’s what you changes you’re the
27:25
villain now and there I guess the good
27:27
guys are there or at least the victims
27:29
of your of your villainy and and so it’s
27:31
very happy to see that you’re that
27:33
you’re doing this type of thing now you
27:37
would mention polarization in your in if
27:41
not in that then I think in one of the
27:42
videos about theory of Enchantment do
27:45
you think that polarization in our
27:47
society is possibly a feature and not a
27:51
bug
27:52
meaning that like the people leading
27:54
these various political movements and
27:56
and and and activist groups and things
27:58
like that
27:59
whether wittingly or unwittingly they
28:01
don’t actually want to find common
28:03
ground they kind of want to radicalize
28:05
their followers and create boogie men
28:07
out of their opponents so that they can
28:08
keep everyone at each other’s throats
28:10
and more easily manipulate others again
28:13
not even necessarily realizing that’s
28:14
what they’re doing or do you think that
28:16
this is truly like a bug like people
28:19
don’t want to do this like the market
28:31
rewards it especially on Twitter so if
28:34
the market rewards polarization
28:37
financially or otherwise and that’s what
28:39
you’re going to do because it’s quite
28:41
frankly feed your family and gives you
28:44
status and so that’s what you’re going
28:48
to do and you’re going to do it with
28:50
glee actually so I think that there’s
28:53
something that has to be worked out with
28:54
regard to that that that market effect
28:57
that market aspect and I’m not quite
28:59
sure like how to how to sort of fix that
29:04
or compete with that which is I on it
29:07
because I just started a business but
29:08
we’ll see if only someone would just you
29:12
know put together something to try to
29:13
help people figure out how to do this
29:17
but at the same time it’s also human
29:20
nature so it’s not just like market
29:22
forces it’s like I don’t know if you’re
29:24
into Game of Thrones I don’t know if you
29:25
watched it oh yes okay so I think this
29:29
is the thing that was the one teaching
29:31
woman that came away from the very box
29:33
eight season was who was kaliesha’s you
29:38
know turning into in the name of social
29:41
justice into an oppressor right and I
29:44
don’t think that that was a market for
29:46
staying capitalism didn’t exist back
29:48
then I think it’s a function of human
29:50
nature and so it is incumbent upon us as
29:53
human beings to be aware of our nature
29:55
and to try to temper the excesses the
29:58
negative excesses of our impulses that
30:01
that lend themselves to that and I think
30:03
that that’s the larger thing that’s
30:05
that’s going on what’s going on is it is
30:07
a human development thing not a whether
30:12
you’re unwittingly or deliberately doing
30:14
it or not yeah and in the market in many
30:17
ways is an extension of human nature
30:19
it’s human nature played out in in in
30:21
sort of this kind of mass you know like
30:22
human nature is saying I’m gonna buy
30:25
this here because it’s cheaper the exact
30:27
same thing is cheaper here then than
30:28
there that’s human nature playing out
30:30
trying to find the best deal um there
30:32
are two things I agree with what you
30:33
just said
30:33
that you know people are you know the
30:37
perfect example you know Khaleesi
30:39
Daenerys you know she she right now I’m
30:44
trying not to think of all the things
30:46
that were wrong with that season um but
30:47
but Daenerys you know she went from at
30:50
the beginning of the story she was you
30:53
know they were trying to kill her that
30:54
the the you know Baratheon were trying
30:56
to kill her the you know she gets
30:59
married away to a guy who’s raping her
31:01
and she over time strengthens herself
31:04
and becomes a champion of the oppressed
31:07
doing some pretty brutal stuff along the
31:09
way but she was doing it to bad people
31:11
quote-unquote and then all of a sudden
31:13
you come all the way full circle where
31:15
she’s uh where she’s just burning the
31:19
largest city in the known world and
31:21
killing pretty much everyone and and
31:23
then you know pretty much saying to John
31:26
who was apparently became thick-headed
31:28
in the last season that you know what
31:30
we’re gonna do this to Winterfell next
31:31
and then to Dorne and then everywhere
31:33
else and he’s just like you were my
31:34
queen and so the other thing I agree
31:37
with you with is that they completely
31:38
botched that season in most of season
31:40
seven first of all John kills Daenerys
31:43
total sidenote here John kills Daenerys
31:46
why did the and so and then the
31:48
unsullied presumably capture him why did
31:50
the Dothraki not fight the unsullied to
31:53
free their new cow because he’s their
31:56
new call
31:56
he killed the Khaleesi he’s the call
31:58
he’s now their leader why did that not
32:00
happen I don’t think thing anymore yeah
32:06
I mean they’ve already gone across the
32:08
world and you know what that’s a good
32:16
point they weren’t they were they just
32:18
fought zombie
32:19
they’re not worried about their their
32:20
archaic social structure anymore you
32:22
know I that’s a good point and I’m less
32:25
angry now still angry I’m still angry
32:27
but I’m less angry so in the spirit of
32:31
making human connections finding common
32:34
ground and and and not treating people
32:36
as political extra abstractions who
32:38
would you consider the worst enemy of
32:40
the theory of Enchantment and and how do
32:42
we destroy them I’ll say what’s the
32:54
caveat of like again the theory of
32:57
adrenaline has very specific framework
32:59
for criticizing supposed to be like
33:05
appreciative inquiry and like you you
33:08
talk about what you value and you
33:09
criticize right because you actually
33:12
care about that person so all that being
33:13
said I don’t know if this is like the
33:16
biggest I mean look at politics I love
33:20
that you’re trying to figure out who
33:22
your biggest enemy is but they were go
33:23
ahead different ways of it’s different
33:28
paradigms of viewing the world right
33:30
right right
33:33
no I understand that’s why I love that
33:35
you’re like painting yourself to do this
33:38
but I find it problematic do you know
33:47
Robyn D’Angelo is I want to say I’ve
33:52
heard that name but no no no actually
33:55
works anti-bias training okay she coined
34:00
the term white fragility and she is
34:03
basically this entire philosophy of how
34:05
to combat racism which is very much
34:11
basically like you have to tell white
34:13
people to hold still while I hit you
34:14
essentially but yes my people have to
34:19
essentially say yes please hitting
34:20
please keep hitting me like I you know I
34:25
acknowledge my sins my original sin yeah
34:30
with no with no hope of redemption
34:32
that’s what I always like to point out
34:34
when people mean that comparison is that
34:35
it’s not like original sin original sin
34:37
has actually a redemptive Clausen yeah
34:39
yeah but so that whole model which is
34:42
actually pretty pervasive
34:44
in certain sectors of society it’s it’s
34:47
affected a lot of educational
34:48
departments affected a lot of anti-bias
34:50
and like diversity trainings that type
34:54
of philosophy is very dangerous and has
34:58
that I’ll call it the Khaleesi effect
35:00
thank you Prince Aegon like shortening
35:03
what we’re talking about in which people
35:08
become the oppressed sir in the name of
35:12
trying to right fight for the oppressor
35:16
and the problem with with one of the
35:18
things that underpins that is another
35:21
sort of flaw in thinking which is this
35:23
notion that if you are oppressed
35:25
are you a real outskirts in the show or
35:28
no you say whatever you want on the ship
35:30
well except you did don’t nothing like
35:32
don’t advocate for anyone to be killed
35:33
but I think we’re good on that
35:34
sort of like rape murder like that kind
35:38
of thing you know yes you can say
35:39
whatever you want false there’s a flaw
35:43
in this sort of robbing Manjula model of
35:46
thinking that if you are oppressed
35:47
there’s no way that you can be an
35:49
asshole but it turns out that if you are
35:51
oppressed you could also be you can also
35:53
be and also be a bad person right yep
35:58
yep law in thinking that if you are
36:01
oppressed then you sort of fit into this
36:04
box of good person and the person who is
36:06
oppressing you is bad person really
36:08
that’s not how the human condition works
36:09
it’s not right that’s not who we are as
36:12
human beings and so what dr. Angelou
36:15
does not reducing people to their skin
36:16
color ironically is essentially creating
36:19
a framework in which human beings are
36:22
are reduced to what she believes to be
36:25
the essence of their skin color which
36:27
doesn’t make any sense and that creates
36:29
that khaleesi effect so that’s what I
36:31
would criticize on the left especially
36:33
it’s important to me because I am a
36:34
person of color and like it really like
36:36
affects the way like it affects me
36:39
personally and like it’s right I have
36:41
people going around thinking of me as
36:43
like a political abstraction
36:45
or like a category as opposed to a
36:48
fully-functioning complex human being
36:50
then they also going to treat me in
36:52
weird ways and I’m gonna have to like
36:54
call them out but in the spirit of
36:55
Enchantment not call out their behavior
36:59
as in white why it’s wrong yeah yeah
37:02
yeah no I I can I can imagine it’s
37:05
cathartic though I mean I am painfully
37:08
white as this camp as this light is
37:10
helping demonstrate this LED light I
37:12
don’t know why I have an LED light on me
37:13
I glow in the dark so I am extremely
37:15
extremely white I am Jewish but I’m also
37:18
like no one knows I’m Jewish unless I
37:21
tell them which I do often I have very
37:27
exactly is I’m visibly I could when I
37:30
was a kid I was like platinum white hair
37:32
I look like a Hitler Youth poster
37:34
candidate like I mean III I’m very very
37:38
very very white so I obviously don’t
37:40
know what it’s like to be a person of
37:41
color I can imagine that it is very
37:44
cathartic especially if you have been
37:46
dealing with both in over and covert
37:51
ways dealing with being treated like a
37:53
lesser person not that you’re being
37:55
chained and enslaved or anything like
37:57
that but just your existing in the same
37:59
world as others but you’re just it’s
38:02
noticeable that you’re being treated
38:03
differently on a sort of a macro scale I
38:07
can imagine it would be cathartic now to
38:09
get to play a little part in acting that
38:13
way towards an entire you know treating
38:16
all white people as an abstraction and
38:18
making these generalizations and if any
38:20
white person comes along to say well I’m
38:21
not like that go Little Crow and like
38:23
make fun of that and you know create
38:25
these spaces where I watch it and I used
38:27
to get upset now I laugh because I’m
38:29
like they’re having fun with this like
38:31
you know white people do XYZ and you
38:34
know me I post the white people jokes
38:36
because for the same reasons I post
38:37
jokes in general I just think they’re
38:39
funny and okay people I put so much
38:42
chicken and I’m like we’re portrayal
38:44
intricate like I mean I get it I get why
38:47
it’s funny and I get why it can be
38:48
cathartic on like a you know you’ve been
38:50
putting me through this or not you but
38:52
the white people quote-unquote are this
38:55
society including black people that help
38:57
enforce it but that’s a whole other
38:58
subject
38:59
I have been putting me through this and
39:02
now I get a chance just to kind of dig
39:03
at you but it speaks to what happens if
39:06
this individual ends up in a position of
39:08
power do they suddenly go well I’ve had
39:10
my fill of that now I’m gonna spread joy
39:12
and love and equality and and I fear
39:15
that that’s maybe not what’s gonna
39:16
happen do you have that same fear that I
39:18
do making white people jokes about
39:23
cooking I mean I do yeah so that was
39:30
just to be clear that was just an
39:32
example of like that whoa don’t do that
39:34
but like saying you know white like you
39:36
said yeah okay okay okay yeah I think
39:39
it’s a good general way of thinking and
39:41
being you become if you go too far if
39:45
you like what’s that way of thinking not
39:49
careful when you do find yourself in a
39:52
position of power you can become
39:53
solitary and the other thing is that we
39:57
as a society don’t understand we think
40:01
of power as a very simple thing we think
40:05
of power almost like as being defined by
40:07
firepower so you have the power to
40:09
enforce you know something but powers
40:12
actually I think much more complicated
40:14
than that and you know I would say that
40:17
dr. King and James Baldwin both viewed
40:20
power and much more metaphysical ways
40:21
than simply saying like I have a gun and
40:23
I can enforce this and they would have
40:26
argued that racists were actually the
40:28
victims of their own making essentially
40:31
which is which is the type of language
40:33
that you don’t really hear today yeah
40:37
like not here they will say that like
40:40
racists are are engaging in a power
40:43
imbalance and so you need to take the
40:45
power back and they are on one level but
40:48
then about a physical level which is
40:49
another dimension different different
40:51
way of thinking about all these things
40:53
it’s it changes the way like James
40:57
Baldwin famously said in the debate that
40:59
it’s the arguments in some ways much
41:02
worse for the racist who presumably
41:05
loves his wife and loves his kids and
41:07
still sees fit to go attack and beat up
41:10
a black young black one that he
41:12
Ryan are you Rick it was arguably worse
41:15
for the soul of that person than it was
41:18
for the person being persecuted because
41:20
there’s something far great hard more
41:23
damaging internally in that racist
41:25
person that has to be dealt with and has
41:28
to be healed and that’s a totally
41:29
different way of thinking about power
41:31
and thinking about you know how we view
41:36
I guess the ability to do something just
41:40
which is the definition of power right
41:42
so right so that’s something that I’ve
41:44
thought about before a lot actually
41:47
well that’s that’s interesting because
41:49
if you I I tend to look at um so if you
41:54
look at the societal issues and you
41:58
almost and you distilled them down to if
42:00
you were thinking of a family instead of
42:01
a society so instead of 320 million
42:03
people or 7 billion people or whatever
42:05
talk think about you know a couple dozen
42:07
people living together as a family these
42:09
things start to just look like
42:11
run-of-the-mill toxic co-dependent
42:13
relationships and so using that same I
42:16
guess
42:19
extrapolation you could also say that so
42:21
like giving your example the the abuser
42:24
the person who is you know being the the
42:28
presumably the one who’s benefiting the
42:30
most from this toxic relationship in
42:32
many ways they’re the most tortured one
42:33
of all because they’re doing all of
42:36
these things to make up for either you
42:38
know great anxieties and fears that they
42:40
have feelings of inadequacy and all of
42:43
these other things and yes that doesn’t
42:46
excuse what they’re doing and it you
42:47
know it needs to stop and the way that
42:49
they do these things needs to change and
42:51
the people that are being forced into
42:53
this need to be able to disassociate
42:54
from them so that they don’t have to
42:55
deal with that but that doesn’t change
42:57
the fact that that person’s really like
42:59
really really probably like you said
43:02
possibly worse off than anyone else in
43:03
terms of who they are inside out
43:06
tortured they are inside and like you
43:07
were saying power you know Paul Gordon
43:11
who’s a guest of mine regularly he talks
43:14
about the reality of power that there
43:15
are many different types of power and
43:16
and you know force power is just one of
43:19
them me being able to point a gun at
43:20
someone and go you do this or I’ll kill
43:22
you or me being able to you know show an
43:24
army to someone and say I will
43:26
the crap out of everyone you care about
43:27
unless you do that that’s one type of
43:29
power and it’s it’s the most overstated
43:31
one because there’s also if I have the
43:34
ability and I forget the labels he uses
43:36
but if I had the ability to in talking
43:38
to you change your mind so that not only
43:41
are you doing the thing that I want you
43:43
to do but you want to do it I’m not
43:45
forcing you to do it at gunpoint this is
43:47
now a thing that you feel just it
43:48
passionately is me that is power if if I
43:52
can change you know public opinion to
43:55
kind of almost like societally pressure
43:58
you or for lack of a better word peer
44:00
pressure you into doing something that’s
44:02
not quite as good as getting to convince
44:03
you to do it but it’s still better than
44:04
pointing a gun at you because you still
44:06
feel like this is something you should
44:07
be doing so those things are you know in
44:09
my mind more powerful than the power we
44:12
tend to think of you know you know force
44:15
power marshal power different paradigms
44:22
of viewing the way the world works
44:24
someone actually had a conversation with
44:26
me the other day
44:27
going back to quantum physics they
44:30
explained it like someone who views
44:32
physics through the lens of a Newtonian
44:34
model versus someone who sees it through
44:37
the lens of quantum physics so the
44:38
Newtonian model is yes for those for
44:43
them for the idiots out there who don’t
44:45
know like the difference it’s like the
44:53
physical like this computer is
44:55
physically in front of me that’s right I
44:59
drop it I break it whatever that’s your
45:01
nutrient level of it but the quantum
45:03
level of physics is like the energy
45:04
within the universe right and it’s going
45:08
much more deeper than the physical
45:09
manifestation of what’s happening in
45:11
front of you and that’s the problem I
45:13
have what Robin DeAngelo’s model is that
45:15
her model is only about the physical
45:17
appearance essentially of the person
45:19
standing in front of you and the
45:21
implication of that allegedly as opposed
45:23
to the energy within the person the
45:26
things that have contributed to the
45:28
person being who they are and how that
45:30
informs what they’re doing to themselves
45:33
and to me and then I’ll multiply that on
45:35
a societal level so that’s
45:39
I do want to bring up my problems with
45:40
the right in regards to this I don’t
45:43
want to just focus on the left because
45:44
the right does this too I would say like
45:47
I I used to you know I used to write for
45:50
truth live role which was a magazine
45:52
that likes ben shapiro had headed up so
45:54
i used to work for ben shapiro on the
45:57
israel side right
45:58
and I think that both to a certain
46:01
extent ben shapiro and to a greater
46:03
extent
46:04
Candice always represents the same
46:06
phenomenon on the right this is what
46:09
they do is they make these sweeping
46:11
claims about how the left wants to
46:14
destroy us all the left as this again
46:17
flit across write this yeah this this
46:19
might Leviathan yeah it’s ironic that
46:23
they criticize Tallahassee Coates I know
46:30
we got a lot of back and forth was with
46:34
Tennessee coach yeah because one of the
46:38
things they were critical of I remember
46:42
correctly is in his essay about Donald
46:44
Trump being the first white president he
46:46
just describes whiteness as this like
46:48
cosmic thing Forks in the world but it’s
46:52
like how they describe the left they
46:54
describe the left as if it were this
46:56
cosmic force in the world like the media
46:59
they are the media yes yep enormous
47:02
platforms with Millett the people
47:05
following them their activism they don’t
47:08
have power they have power to influence
47:10
and they are the media and so they to
47:13
reduce people on the left to these
47:16
cookie cutter pigeon-holed you know
47:20
mindless drones when this monolith yeah
47:23
like Sauron or something yep yep like
47:26
the left in my opinion is far more
47:27
interesting and nuanced in many ways in
47:31
the picture that they depict so they to
47:34
have makes you have contributed to this
47:37
this force in society that’s just like
47:40
not allowing us to deal with each
47:43
other’s humanities and instead in
47:46
empowering us and encouraging us to just
47:49
reduce one another to two
47:53
Jex subjects well and and I agree
47:56
hundred-percent and specifically with
47:58
Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens in some
48:01
ways
48:01
they’re presenting themselves by virtue
48:04
of their identities as sort of a counter
48:06
abstraction so it’s like well you know
48:09
I’m a Jew and I’m conservative or you
48:12
know I’m a black woman and let me
48:14
explain why the democrat party is a
48:16
plantation that we should flee from and
48:20
how in no way is that hyperbolic at all
48:24
to compare a political party to like
48:28
chattel slavery you’re comparing a
48:35
political party the 21st century to
48:37
plantation life like and no one is like
48:41
no one sees a problem with this it’s a
48:43
rough yeah that’s a rough that’s a rough
48:47
rough conspiracy if I have to I have to
48:50
believe maybe I’m wrong I have to
48:52
believe that a bench of ben shapiro
48:54
tried to on ironically compare like the
48:59
Democratic Party to Auschwitz that there
49:03
I’d have to think that there’d be some
49:05
backlash would there be people out there
49:08
like yeah I totally agree with yes but
49:10
with the by and large would he get way
49:13
more flak than she’s getting for
49:15
comparing maybe I’m fooling myself maybe
49:17
maybe I’m wrong but I have to think that
49:20
he’s getting a little more flak for
49:23
comparing it to Shoah then then then you
49:26
know then show was the Holocaust for
49:29
doesn’t know then then Candace is
49:31
getting comparing it to slavery but but
49:32
I don’t know I don’t know it honestly I
49:34
don’t know anymore as I’m saying it may
49:36
be they may be all my friends half my
49:39
Facebook friends feed would come out and
49:40
say yes of course this is exactly like
49:42
the gas chambers I know I don’t know
49:45
what to think you know I just am baffled
49:48
by what people are what people get away
49:51
with intellectual ya know exactly what
49:56
you know what isn’t comparable to the
49:57
Holocaust anchor FM so guys are you
50:00
thinking of podcasting well let me tell
50:03
you something if you are thinking of
50:04
making a pot there’s an anchor will be
50:06
three
50:07
at this plug I’m sure anchor is the
50:10
easiest way to make a podcast anchor
50:12
gives you everything you need in one
50:13
place for free which you can use right
50:16
from your phone or your computer they
50:18
have creation tools that allow you to
50:20
record and edit your podcast so it
50:21
sounds great
50:23
they will distribute the podcast for you
50:25
so it can be heard everywhere from
50:27
Spotify Apple podcasts Google podcasts
50:30
and many more pretty much everywhere um
50:33
you can easily make money from your
50:36
podcast with no minimum listenership
50:38
which is a big deal we are actually
50:40
making money for the first time even
50:42
though we don’t have tens of thousands
50:44
of listeners yet don’t don’t do
50:48
SoundCloud if you were if you were if
50:50
you are if you are not an already famous
50:51
person and you were thinking of
50:53
podcasting then be sure to download the
50:56
anchor app or go to anchor dot FM to get
51:00
started and that is my contractually
51:02
obligated plug now Chloe speaking of
51:04
podcast you recently started a podcast
51:06
in you guilting you into podcasting more
51:16
it’s called theory of Enchantment and I
51:19
will actually be I’m actually gonna
51:21
start talking more about the theory in
51:23
the past I’ve interviewed really
51:25
interesting folks yeah but I think that
51:27
my voice has sort of sort of minimized
51:30
my voice and I think that I’m trying to
51:32
hone in my skills as an educator so I
51:36
think it’ll be interesting to see how I
51:38
talk more about the theory and about the
51:40
teachings and the lessons of the theory
51:42
it’s really interesting because the
51:44
theory of Enchantment curriculum is
51:45
super innovative because it uses pop
51:50
culture as a text to teach insights on
51:53
the human condition
51:54
so instead of studying a psych 101
51:56
textbook you’ll actually study things
51:58
like Disney’s The Lion King you’ll study
52:01
things like a song by Kendrick Lamar or
52:04
a song by John Mayer texts by James
52:06
Baldwin a poem by Maya Angelou to
52:09
actually talk about and discuss and
52:11
unpack these insights into the human
52:12
condition so and that’s that’s that’s
52:15
that’s way more relatable yeah
52:20
then psych 101 even the people that are
52:24
into psych 101 there’s gonna be a very
52:26
small subset of people that are like yes
52:28
yeah psych 101 way more interesting than
52:32
Maya Angelou or James Baldwin or
52:35
Kendrick Lamar or whomever else so I can
52:37
imagine that’s more relatable III I
52:40
caught a couple of your podcast you
52:41
interviewed the former white nationalist
52:43
the founder of Jase wipe I found out
52:46
that there’s foul I did I said I learned
52:48
this week that there’s a app called Jase
52:51
wipe exclusive Jewish dating which would
52:55
I just learned that listen I’ve been out
52:57
of the dating world for like over a
52:59
decade and also let me tell you
53:01
something doesn’t mean let me put this
53:02
onto me I I don’t date Jewish my whole
53:05
thing you know once you go Gentile
53:07
you’re in the 99th percentile and but
53:11
now back to you um but so it was very
53:13
interesting I I’d like to think that you
53:15
you started this podcast because you
53:17
started listening to my show and you
53:19
thought wow that’s that’s terrible I
53:22
need to make something that hopefully in
53:24
some small way offsets the horrible
53:28
things that that spike is doing by
53:31
making something that is is good am I am
53:33
I correct in that good I’m glad to glad
53:39
to hear it so yeah I didn’t realize that
53:41
you’re so you’re you’re gonna try to
53:43
switch up your how you relate to the
53:47
people on the during the podcast be less
53:49
of a I guess interviewer and more of
53:50
where you’re having conversation yeah
53:56
it’s tough it’s tough
53:59
it is tough I like talking about how I
54:02
think about stuff but when you have
54:04
someone on you naturally just want to
54:06
ask them questions and be like yeah
54:09
that’s a great point or I don’t know I
54:11
maybe I don’t agree with it but it’s I’m
54:13
learning if you watch my first view of
54:16
don’t don’t but if you did watch my
54:18
first few episodes I’m just like that’s
54:22
a good point wow I never thought of it
54:23
that way or I agree with that and and as
54:27
opposed to like having a conversation so
54:30
I’m trying to strike that balance so
54:32
you’ll get your you’ve done how many
54:33
episodes
54:34
I’ve done 10 episodes okay then your you
54:37
have you have you will get much better
54:39
but I thought you were good I thought
54:41
you I thought you were good but yes it
54:43
is it is it is difficult to find that
54:46
balance between just being like a
54:49
reporter putting a microphone in
54:51
someone’s face and being like like a
54:54
Larry King who’s you know the interviews
54:56
half about him you know as much as it is
54:58
about the person yeah it’s it’s tough
55:00
it’s tough because you want to be
55:01
somewhere in between those you know so
55:07
yeah I want to try that cool well it’s
55:11
good you know you could have the founder
55:13
of my fellow Americans on and that would
55:15
be something and then and then you could
55:17
just ask me questions and then I could
55:19
time that could be an episode where you
55:20
don’t try to do that you just let me
55:21
talk we don’t we could very funny person
55:38
I am ah thank you and I am a fan of this
55:40
idea of finding your enemies and and and
55:43
and and and naming and shaming them and
55:50
people who disagree with theory of
55:53
Enchantment so fragile
55:58
yeah although yeah so okay now now Chloe
56:01
there are one of my favorite places on
56:04
the Internet is the comment section of
56:08
your Facebook post where I try to reside
56:11
as much as possible basically I think
56:13
you’re in a similar situation as me
56:15
where you have cultivated yeah
56:18
cultivated a largely conservative
56:20
following and maybe slightly
56:25
over-represented from the the general
56:27
public well we should say and they have
56:29
become exasperated exasperated downright
56:32
apoplectic if you will at the idea that
56:35
you have nuanced opinions and are not
56:36
essentially a Tucker Carlson clone this
56:40
is not a segue into a question I just
56:41
wanted to take this opportunity to thank
56:43
you for your comment or
56:48
if you actually told Dave Rubin said if
56:50
anything I’m like like I’m I don’t
56:53
really like the political labels but I’m
56:55
definitely like a former right winger
56:57
sort of transitioning into a centrist
56:59
right not a center last person whatever
57:02
that means like I don’t know but you’re
57:06
not ready to say what you’re becoming
57:07
but I know what you’re becoming becoming
57:11
one of me it’s happening it’s you’re not
57:18
now okay so this is like 2014 Chloe I’m
57:21
not an anarchist no you’re definitely
57:23
not right now and we go ahead I don’t
57:25
interrupt you and you’re not being an
57:26
anarchist you know I love them sometimes
57:36
they drive me crazy
57:37
and if it’s anyone that I’m trying to
57:40
affect with enchantment it’s not just
57:45
them it’s like it’s like there are there
57:48
are conservatives on my wall that will
57:50
go apoplectic my opinions they’re also
57:53
liberals that on my wall they go oh yeah
57:55
yeah yeah absolutely
57:57
angry and also think everyone angry like
58:04
I’m not what is it when they ask me if
58:07
I’m right wing or left wing I say I am
58:09
NOT a bird I like that I like that so
58:14
yeah I just I just I think that the
58:16
world is much more interesting than
58:18
these questions are you know it’s so
58:21
much more so much more interesting and
58:24
it’s sad that we haven’t come to a place
58:26
societally are culturally where we can
58:29
like transcend those labels you know I
58:33
agree I agree the contribute well you’re
58:41
doing your best and I appreciate that
58:43
and in the meantime I’m thoroughly
58:44
enjoying the comments I often come just
58:46
to experience the comments because and I
58:48
know what they’ll be which is the best
58:50
part of it so it’s like I can predict
58:53
with a pretty high degree of certainty
58:55
you know when you’ll post something and
58:56
it’ll mention like the Palestinians and
58:59
they’ll be like
59:01
powers demand you show me their
59:04
Constitution so Chloe there are
59:06
competing theories as to whether or not
59:09
we should reach out to people with the
59:12
most abhorrent views like Nazis or
59:15
whether we should you know whether we
59:19
should you know shame them and try to
59:21
you know destroy them and and and
59:23
whatever whether we should be you know
59:24
reaching out to them and not treat them
59:26
like evil caricatures so that they can
59:28
realize we aren’t evil caricatures and
59:30
maybe they you know shouldn’t be Nazis
59:32
um I think you seem to believe we should
59:35
reach out to them at least to a point um
59:36
the argument against that obviously is
59:39
that by giving Nazis and people like
59:41
that any kind of space or platform
59:43
you’re also giving them the opportunity
59:45
to spread their message and influence
59:46
more people or normalize their beliefs
59:48
or anything like that and and you know I
59:50
mean some would say you know that that
59:53
they could spread their message and
59:54
influence more people possibly even me
59:56
so what do you think about the argument
59:58
and then also to what degree do you
60:00
worry that I could become a Nazi because
60:07
he literally got over 200 white
60:11
nationalist yeah that’s see that’s a
60:20
very powerful data point in your favor
60:22
so you just talk to like he I mean he me
60:26
teachers talk to them over very long
60:28
periods of time like years and years and
60:30
years and eventually just like wore them
60:32
down and I guess by just talk okay fine
60:35
you’re a person right and they
60:38
eventually left and so I guess my
60:41
question would be as a data point how
60:44
many white nationalists have left the
60:47
movement from the strategy of ignoring
60:51
them or and or ostracizing them
60:56
threatening to punch them yeah punch
60:59
them you know versus Davis model I don’t
61:03
really answer to that question it’s
61:04
possible that made me something well I’m
61:06
sure it takes all kinds yeah yeah maybe
61:09
it’s a combination you know of thing but
61:11
I just that data point of Darrell Davis
61:13
realistic just
61:14
out with me also diakon who has a famous
61:19
documentary on Netflix called meet the
61:23
right where she also talks to white
61:24
nationalists and she has an incredible
61:26
interview with a British guy whose name
61:30
I forgot um what’s it called what’s his
61:33
name but look up podcast Oh long Russell
61:39
Brand Russell Brand yes oh she has an
61:42
incredible interview with him which i
61:44
think is like certainly homework for me
61:46
when i was it’s really good yeah it’s
61:49
really really good so good and it sort
61:51
of unpacked like how on why people
61:54
become white nationalists especially
61:55
like how a lot of military people are
61:57
coming back being super depressed and
62:00
traumatised and then being exploited by
62:03
this movement so these are often our
62:04
veterans for being being essentially I
62:07
say I would say stolen from us and into
62:09
these movements and so I’m packing that
62:11
and she really speaks about it
62:13
eloquently it’s critical to learning how
62:16
to get people out of the movement and
62:18
the theory of Enchantment is actually
62:19
going to be used in anti extremist
62:22
organizations to help people who have
62:24
expressed desires who want to leave that
62:26
movement so even the theory of
62:28
enchantments actually involved in a very
62:30
early stages but involved in trying to
62:32
yes combat extremist movements but in a
62:35
very loving way so maybe for for other
62:39
people like again punching punching them
62:41
in the face might be very cathartic and
62:44
emotionally comfortable don’t get
62:46
arrested but right right you know like
62:48
you know and I get that I’m not I I
62:52
don’t think I would necessarily I don’t
62:54
think judgement is what I would dish out
62:56
for that but I would say be mindful this
62:59
is again the Newtonian versus the quanto
63:01
right your the Newtonian view is like
63:04
this person in front of me is a white
63:05
supremacist white supremacist or evil
63:07
punch the light supremacist right right
63:09
right right
63:10
the quantum model is what are the
63:12
factors within this individual’s life
63:15
that got him to where he is today and
63:17
how can i how can i unpack those factors
63:20
in a way that will that will help him to
63:23
grow and eventually move out of the
63:24
movement it’s just two different ways of
63:26
viewing and I happen to subscribe
63:28
so that second few right right and of
63:31
course caring for your safety first and
63:33
foremost like I mean you you don’t go
63:35
into it no but what I mean is like okay
63:39
so you don’t you don’t go to like a
63:41
cross burning and go hey guys you know
63:43
maybe this is a bit much ya know yeah
63:54
we’re not recommending this but man for
64:02
years white nationalist rallies and just
64:05
talk to people and eventually over 200
64:08
of them left I don’t know what that says
64:10
but I know it says something it
64:11
definitely says something that you
64:13
haven’t firstly you know what it says is
64:14
that the cojones the cuts above this man
64:17
this is a self-assured man up to a white
64:22
nationalist rally as an obvious black
64:25
man tell me why you doing that is that
64:32
is yeah I’ll see it the next one okay
64:39
yeah I think you’re wrong but we’ll talk
64:41
later like that’s that is impressive I
64:44
would say so here’s my recommendation
64:45
because I would say you know maybe not
64:48
the day I can’t I can I don’t want
64:50
people walking away from this going like
64:52
well you know Nazis are people too I’m
64:53
gonna go hang out there yeah don’t do
64:57
that I would not recommend that okay my
65:00
recommendation would be if you are going
65:02
to reach out to them you do so in it a
65:06
space you’re gonna feel comfortable in
65:08
and apparently for him that was a cross
65:09
burning he was comfortable in that space
65:12
so gonna be a place that you feel
65:14
comfortable and I mean but ya know it
65:18
it’s that’s another thing but actually
65:27
helping trip because the thing is I
65:29
bench a lot of conferences on extremism
65:30
and if people don’t realize that
65:31
extremism it’s like alcoholism like you
65:34
have to go to like a 12-step program to
65:36
get right and so if you can volunteer
65:38
for organizations that are helping
65:40
people get out of those
65:42
that’s another way that you can
65:43
contribute to society yeah and it speaks
65:49
to the fact that I am NOT saying Nazis
65:52
are that Nazi Nazis UM’s wrong the Klan
65:55
is wrong these things are wrong they’re
65:57
unequivocally wrong
65:59
it speaks to something that these are
66:01
people who obviously think they’re doing
66:03
something right and yet when a black man
66:05
comes up a good number of them actually
66:08
even in that moment felt comfortable
66:11
communicating with this person and and
66:13
it says that these groups are not Sauron
66:16
these groups are not the the the the
66:20
yeah thank you thank you I try to you
66:22
know pop culture like because Tolkien’s
66:24
pop could pop go to hundred-year-old
66:26
stories pop culture 100 year old story
66:28
um these are not the monoliths that we
66:32
create and there are certainly bad
66:34
actors in them just like there’s bad
66:36
actors everywhere but a lot of them are
66:38
scared like a lot of them are doing it
66:40
because they are scared of this
66:41
caricature that’s been created of them
66:43
the Mexicans and the blacks and the
66:44
Muslims are coming to rape their women
66:46
and to erase their identity and they’re
66:49
you know they’re they’re gonna make us
66:50
do this and do that and we have to stop
66:52
them we have to band together we’re a
66:53
dwindling minority of people we have to
66:55
band together and fight against them and
66:57
that’s that narrative has so many
66:58
problems with it and and it’s it’s
67:00
clearly false but just seeing a black
67:04
person wanted to be friends with them
67:06
for a good number of them is gonna be
67:08
enough for them be like oh I didn’t know
67:12
you wanted to be friends now for a lot
67:15
of them no but yeah yeah like this is my
67:20
again holistic mess right like my
67:23
thinking on this was affected it’s not
67:26
just it’s not just thinking about it’s
67:28
thinking about all forms of extremism
67:29
right so like I I volunteer in Brooklyn
67:32
for an organization called children of
67:33
promise which mentor mentors kids whose
67:36
parents are incarcerated like they will
67:39
become incarcerated through the roof
67:41
yeah yeah so they need structures in
67:44
place so they can have mentorship that
67:45
where we basically essentially tell them
67:47
that we believe in them and this is yeah
67:49
but that’s the same it’s interesting
67:52
because it’s the same thing it’s the
67:54
same
67:55
I think so I I know okay I have met I
67:59
have mentored I have tutored little kids
68:01
boys in particular the likelihood who’s
68:05
like we heard of him joining a gay is so
68:07
hot because of the missing structures in
68:09
their family right and what what’s crazy
68:13
about that is that for some of the young
68:16
white kids white boys who are
68:18
susceptible of joining white nationalist
68:21
groups these same these two totally
68:25
different groups one is a bunch of let’s
68:27
say poor white kids and one is a bunch
68:29
of poor black kids they’re same factors
68:32
or are at work yes in factors of
68:35
fatherlessness the same factors on the
68:37
feeling of abandonment social
68:38
abandonment the same factors of
68:40
isolation are at work and and see that’s
68:44
that quantum physics level of analysis
68:45
right that’s not like cute and this is
68:48
fiscal speaks my problem that I have on
68:50
the right right because the rights
68:52
problem the less problem is that the
68:55
intersectional left has no way of
68:57
dealing with white nationalism in the
69:00
way that we’ve been talking about right
69:01
right right
69:02
white supremacy as like alcoholism which
69:06
is requires a 12-step program to get out
69:08
right right but but the right also
69:11
doesn’t understand that when it comes
69:14
across young black kids who may be
69:17
acting out who may be acting in a way
69:19
that’s aggressive or harmful they miss
69:23
some of them and they will say crazy
69:26
things you know thugs yeah yep yep super
69:30
caricaturing yep that that is the exact
69:33
same model of what the left is doing for
69:37
white supremacist right and that isn’t
69:39
to say that like this is not about
69:41
comparing and contrasting this is not
69:43
about saying that like if you think that
69:44
your your supremacist by virtue of your
69:47
skin color then what you are doing is
69:50
better or worse than a kid who wants to
69:53
go bang up another community because
69:56
that community is being ripped by
69:57
another gay right this isn’t about
69:59
comparing and contrasting you know the
70:01
the lack of ethics in both of these
70:04
slivers of communities right it’s about
70:07
trying to unpack
70:08
where they come from where they stem
70:10
from and trying to put in place a model
70:13
that can heal and also can prevent right
70:17
because again going back to
70:19
conversations around movies or films
70:23
like when they see us how can we
70:25
actually combat the punitive nature of
70:27
the way we think about how to deal with
70:30
crime or how to deal with bad behavior
70:33
right right so the same the same thing
70:37
that I’m saying which is applicable to
70:40
dealing in some in some cases with some
70:43
white supremacist it’s the same thing
70:45
that is a preventive white supremacist
70:48
from from actually sprouting up of
70:51
communities it’s the same thing that’s
70:53
applicable to why we should be talking
70:57
about mentoring these younger black kids
70:59
that are in situations know salts of
71:02
their own well actually be why should we
71:04
we should be shoring them up we should
71:06
be telling them we believe in them right
71:09
because we know that the outcome will be
71:11
better and the right does not do that I
71:13
was I was just on Vinci perros website
71:15
um he has a list of retractions and but
71:18
but like halfway down the list it’s like
71:20
stuff I’ve said that’s the left took out
71:22
of context and one of them was basically
71:26
saying that like if you have an EBT card
71:28
and you’re sagging your pants and you
71:31
don’t and you’re wearing a fitted cap
71:32
this is a tweet he said a few years ago
71:35
but he just read just áfive a tweet last
71:37
year and he said if you have all this
71:40
your likelihood of success is 0% and
71:43
then he said the left didn’t understand
71:45
if they called me racist but they’re a
71:47
bunch of white people that fit this
71:48
description so the left is being racist
71:50
bla bla bla and my butt is still wrong
71:51
it’s still nut with this weight it’s not
71:58
just about that skin yeah like like like
72:01
what you appreciate appreciates so if
72:05
you can see value if you can see human
72:07
worth you can see potential in that you
72:10
just described then the likelihood and
72:13
you invest in that potential then the
72:15
likelihood that they will be successful
72:16
it’s actually not a zero percent but you
72:19
have to have a world view that is
72:21
holistic
72:22
to see that and to make you desire to
72:25
invest in that so it’s any community I
72:27
could talk about a black kid in the
72:29
inner city of Chicago I could talk about
72:30
a white kid in opioid infested Virginia
72:35
I could talk about a Hispanic kid was
72:37
dealing with various issues this is the
72:38
human right and and and Jordan Peterson
72:44
talks about this as well but it’s it’s a
72:46
it’s especially with boys but really
72:48
just people in general with girls too
72:51
if you take a human being and as a child
72:54
they have no direction
72:55
they have no idea what they’re doing
72:56
they’ve probably been told at least once
72:58
that they were a mistake they were or at
73:00
least it was in or at least even if it
73:02
wasn’t actually said just the way that
73:04
they’re being treated is as though they
73:06
were a mistake and an unwanted mistake
73:08
that the people now fully regret that
73:11
having made and now you’ve got a group
73:14
whether it’s a gang an extremist group
73:18
or even um the military who goes to them
73:21
and says no you have a purpose we’re
73:24
gonna give you a purpose we have a
73:26
purpose for you you have amazing purpose
73:28
you’re gonna protect your people or your
73:31
country or your neighborhood from these
73:33
horrible scumbags over there who think
73:35
all the terrible things about you that
73:36
we don’t believe and we’re gonna and
73:39
we’re gonna we’re gonna go we’re gonna
73:40
we’re gonna fight against them and and
73:42
you know you’re going to I don’t know so
73:45
much with the white supremacist groups
73:46
but definitely with the gangs and with
73:47
the military they’re like you’re gonna
73:49
profit too you’re gonna you’re gonna
73:50
make something of yourself you’re gonna
73:51
come out of this stronger and better
73:53
I’m sure the the white supremacist
73:55
groups and that the extremist groups do
73:56
something the I mean the terrorist
73:58
groups al Qaeda says well when you die
74:00
not only do you go to paradise we give
74:03
your family money so I mean these are
74:06
people that have no hope and they’re
74:07
being given hope the hope is incredibly
74:09
toxic and it’s going to harm lots and
74:11
lots of people but it’s it’s the it’s
74:13
the same thing and I like what you’re
74:15
saying especially getting them when
74:16
they’re young so that you don’t have to
74:18
be uh what’s the guy’s name again that
74:21
went to the Klan rallies yes so you
74:25
don’t feel like Darrell Davis and go to
74:26
Klan rallies with adults keep them on
74:28
their kids really exactly but but
74:33
imagine if you can get them as
74:35
kids where they might call you the
74:37
n-word or something but you don’t really
74:39
fear for your life as much you know this
74:41
this is a place that you can actually
74:43
get them so um Chloe I have to ask you
74:47
yes you’ve been following me for years
74:49
now and yet somehow you are still not an
74:54
anarchist
74:58
why why why but I’m speaking to you you
75:15
are basically like the free folk in-game
75:18
yes yes that’s yes I respect the free
75:25
folk tremendously but I actually like
75:28
believes in the state and like in the
75:31
existence of the state and I don’t think
75:33
it has I think that we have a differing
75:37
of difference of opinions in terms of
75:39
like the ethics of the existence of the
75:41
state so I think like big picture and
75:44
like like to summarize it that’s why I’m
75:47
not an artist it’s kind of hard to be an
75:52
a neuroscientist yes that’s fair enough
75:54
fair enough and and in the spirit of the
75:56
theory of Enchantment I will agree to
75:58
disagree with you and continue to have
76:00
an open dialogue with you because I know
76:02
that we haven’t all ascended yet and and
76:05
we haven’t all reached ascendancy which
76:09
at which I achieved a few days ago when
76:12
I changed my mind on a couple of things
76:13
and okay now I’ve now reached the
76:18
pinnacle of both knowledge and humility
76:20
and I am there I’ve got the multiple you
76:26
can’t you can’t see them because you’re
76:28
where you are but but I do have the
76:30
multiple hands and the whole the flow
76:32
you hand thing that’s I forgot my
76:35
question the hand thing I also just
76:43
think that like like our desire as a
76:47
species to
76:49
I have expressions of the collective is
76:54
it very like it’s very rooted in our DNA
76:56
and that you can see that in like sports
77:00
you can see that in the existence of
77:02
countries so I think it’s like now just
77:06
to say that it’s natural doesn’t mean
77:07
it’s good right there excesses of the
77:09
state obviously but I do think that it
77:12
can be it can be conditioned towards it
77:14
good I you know what again
77:18
we’re not we’re not all here but I will
77:21
say this yeah I am NOT and I think
77:23
there’s a misconception that I think
77:24
we’re all island that you know every man
77:25
is an island and that’s certainly not
77:27
the case like you said sports you know
77:29
people join leagues and doing teams and
77:33
they they play against each other and
77:34
now hardcore anarchists will say well
77:36
that’s a that’s a conditioning from the
77:38
states no no it’s not it’s not an
77:40
abstraction it’s hundreds of thousands
77:42
of years of biological evolution where
77:44
we seek out patterns in order to protect
77:46
ourselves from dying and and and now it
77:49
expresses itself in far more mundane
77:51
ways like your bowling league or your
77:53
your you know chess club or whatever and
77:55
and so I I don’t I think that there are
77:57
natural hierarchies I think that the
77:59
actual state like forced Association
78:02
through government I think that there
78:03
are better ways to do the things that
78:05
need to Det that we that we all agree
78:07
need to be achieved or most of us agree
78:10
need to be achieved not like those
78:12
people but the the people that we agree
78:15
to disagree with um but but anyway we
78:18
have time you have time we have time you
78:20
know we’re gonna have conversations
78:22
this is holistic you’re not Newtonian
78:24
and I’m not gonna treat you like that so
78:31
it’s real listen I mean I haven’t done
78:33
the course but I reading reading what
78:36
I’ve read and listening to what I’ve
78:37
listened to I’m like yes this is yes I
78:41
don’t do this I don’t do this because
78:43
you know my post I’m like very like if
78:46
you think this then prove me yourself
78:49
right I am but it’s kind of like a
78:53
passive-aggressive sarcasm where I’m
78:56
like oh yeah you know my thing is like
78:58
I’m like well prove you actually believe
79:00
this bye and I create some absurdist
79:01
constructor
79:03
if you have to agree with but I’m right
79:04
but am i right just be clear so Chloe
79:08
before I give you the floor to give your
79:10
final thoughts probably most important
79:11
part of this show right now um I’m gonna
79:14
give you this opportunity to explain to
79:15
our viewers and listeners exactly how
79:17
much better I am than Dave urban and and
79:20
specific reasons specific reasons as to
79:24
why that is it take as much time as you
79:25
need I mean your qualities I don’t like
79:37
what this is going I don’t know I think
79:40
I think that you’re much more funny yeah
79:48
I think you make well that was in studio
79:51
but I think I think for me this is just
79:53
a personal thing like if my the person
79:55
interviewing me is funny it makes me way
79:57
more comfortable and it like makes me
80:00
take it less seriously which is great
80:02
because I give my best material when I
80:05
don’t take it I and you should
80:07
definitely not take the show seriously
80:09
at all no I certainly don’t
80:10
oh let me rephrase this and it may be in
80:12
a different way that that’s more helpful
80:14
how many Dave Reubens would it take to
80:17
make a spike Cohen I think 20 yes good
80:23
I’m going with that I’m good with that
80:24
I’m good with that I’m officially 20
80:27
times better than Dave Rubin and my
80:29
ratings will reflect that it’s what it’s
80:34
how I took it
80:34
and and I live in my truth and and and
80:39
and you know which I hate that phrase my
80:42
truth but I but in this moment it’s
80:44
perfect this moment I in in my in my
80:48
truth it makes perfect it perfectly fits
80:51
with my beliefs right now so it’s
80:53
definitely that that is that is that is
80:55
I will take that and my ratings will
80:57
clearly reflect that reality shortly
81:01
pretty much would this episode moving
81:02
forward um Chloe it’s been an absolute
81:04
pleasure to have you on I have had I
81:08
have had so much fun having you on and
81:10
I’m so glad that I that you could take
81:13
the time to do this um and I just want
81:16
to give you a chance
81:17
I’ll let you go to give any final
81:19
thoughts of anything and and it take as
81:21
much time as you need any final thoughts
81:23
that you have that you feel like we
81:24
didn’t get to address fully they’d like
81:26
to fully flesh out anything that you
81:28
would like to plug anything that you
81:31
would like to tell people about whatever
81:33
you want to say you can say anything
81:36
that you want to say Chloe Valerie the
81:38
floor is yours interview as you know I
81:46
have a curriculum online that I’m
81:49
selling so the normal price is actually
81:52
seven hundred and fifty bucks and you
81:54
get a year’s worth of access to the
81:55
curriculum but if you type in coupon
81:58
named Spike Cohen all cats no space no
82:02
space the crew the curriculum will cost
82:04
three hundred and sixty bucks which is
82:06
thirty bucks a month so that’s a
82:09
discount I will be giving to spike
82:11
Cohen’s listeners and I hope you enroll
82:13
and enjoy I think you’ll get a lot out
82:15
of the program it’s certainly then a
82:16
self authoring process for me it’s
82:19
actually put together the program and I
82:20
hope that you learn as much as I have
82:23
learned and grow as much as I’m trying
82:25
to grow from engaging with this
82:27
curriculum thank you so much and thank
82:31
you for that generous generous discount
82:33
for our viewers spike Cohen all caps no
82:36
space do not put a space I swear to God
82:39
do not put a space in there and yeah
82:42
thank you again for joining us and guys
82:45
thank you again for tuning in my fellow
82:47
Americans it has been an absolute
82:49
pleasure and I’m glad you could
82:51
experience that pleasure with me it’s
82:52
Mike going in Chloe um be sure to tune
82:55
in tomorrow Thursday night for the
82:58
writer’s block where Matt Wright is
83:00
going to be interviewing someone I don’t
83:05
know who but he’ll be interviewing that
83:07
person and it will be amazing and so be
83:10
sure to tune in to that tune in Friday
83:12
for the Shabbat episode of mr. America
83:15
the bearded truth by the I don’t he’s a
83:18
Gentile but I’m calling it a Shabbat
83:20
episode with Jason Lyon have a great
83:23
weekend and then tune in next Monday for
83:25
mr. maryk of the beard truth teen on
83:27
Shabbat the fully Gentile episode of mr.
83:29
maryk has appeared the truth with Jason
83:30
and tune in next Tuesday for the money
83:33
waters of freedom where Matt Wright and
83:35
I parsed through the week’s events with
83:38
the the hilarity and innocence of a
83:41
child that’s that’s what I do and then
83:44
tune in again next Wednesday where I
83:46
will be having Brent de Ridder who is
83:48
with the Libertarian Party of North
83:50
Carolina and is also gonna be doing
83:52
something called the Liberty loop where
83:53
he is taking his family on a houseboat
83:55
journey around the country somehow I’m
84:00
not sure how a houseboat goes around the
84:01
country
84:02
if you don’t know be sure to tune in
84:04
don’t forget the code and again
84:06
stop lying Denny’s hash tag stop lying
84:08
Denny’s and I will see you next week and
84:11
God bless you
84:13
[Music]