(((My Fellow Americans))) #37: As You Wish With Robin Koerner

Robin Koerner


About This Episode


You know him, you love him. He’s been called the libertarian Jonathan Pie (…by me) and he’s back! Spike is joined tonight by the always-amazing Robin Koerner, libertarian messaging expert and developer of the Weapons of Mass Persuasion program, to talk about spreading the liberty movement and generally being more relatable to others.

Will Robin call Spike mildly autistic like he did last time? Probably yes.

1st Article Robin Mentioned

2nd Article Robin Mentioned

Intro & Outro Music by JoDavi.


Episode Transcript

DISCLOSURE
This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.
FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT
02:37
[music]
02:44
[applause]
02:47
welcome to the show yes yes
02:56
thank you I know it’s great to be back
03:01
thank you keep clapping clap if you
03:07
believe how would we know that you
03:09
believe if you didn’t keep clapping
03:11
welcome to my fellow Americans I am
03:14
literally spike Cohen it is so great to
03:16
join you today Wednesday May 29th the
03:22
year of our Lord 2019 thank you again
03:23
for joining us I’m so happy to be here I
03:26
would have been equally happy to be here
03:28
last week but I wasn’t able to because I
03:30
had like three guests and each one
03:31
wasn’t able to join for a different
03:34
reason and so we ended up not being able
03:36
to do that but glad to have you here we
03:38
as always are a muddied waters media
03:40
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04:03
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05:01
I’m drinking on this episode
05:03
bula vinaka good stuff
05:08
shoutout to Tanner on Turks and mom them
05:09
guys my guest tonight we’ve actually had
05:11
him on before he is a good friend of
05:14
mine I describe him as the he has been
05:17
described by me as the libertarian
05:20
Jonathan PI and I’m hoping that’ll stick
05:24
any day now he is a political trainer
05:27
and consultant he’s regularly featured
05:29
on the foundation for economic education
05:32
his work can also be found on Fox
05:33
Business Network Huffington Post
05:35
independent voter Network and many other
05:37
outlets he is author of the book if you
05:40
can keep it and most recently he had
05:43
developed a program called the weapons
05:45
of mass persuasion he is on he is on
05:49
today to talk about something that he
05:50
has been working on a project he’s been
05:52
working on and I’m just gonna let him
05:54
get started because there’s nothing I
05:56
can do to properly prepare you for him
05:59
so I’m gonna go ahead and bring him on
06:00
ladies and gentlemen welcome to the show
06:03
mr. Robin Koerner Robin thank you so
06:05
much for joining us yes
06:22
it’s a common vernacular it’s common
06:24
vernacular I you know
06:40
oh you’re right it’s not entire it is
06:45
not it to be fair it is not entirely
06:47
Jewish I will give you that but you know
06:51
listen I I have an audience
06:52
I gotta keep my audience happy they like
06:54
the Lord a lot of them some of them not
06:56
all of them no guess I’m being told no
06:59
guests sound oh good yeah okay so yeah I
07:09
know it’s not it’s not you um it’s it’s
07:16
definitely not it’s definitely not you
07:19
ah say something now that’s testing
07:28
testing 1 2 3 again I eyeball I see the
07:30
bars so that’s good you like boss we
07:33
like bomb like bars we like bars okay
07:37
take whatever bars you’ve got on your
07:39
screen exactly exactly so have you been
07:42
doing oh you know all right thanks for
07:44
asking mate I actually have just gotten
07:46
back from the UK where I was visiting
07:49
family for the first time in two years
07:51
which was uh overdue very overdue my
07:55
family are getting to the age where a
07:56
majority have health issues at any given
07:59
time more reason to be there and giving
08:03
love and moral support
08:05
all right it was great I was there just
08:07
for a couple of weeks this time usually
08:09
it’s a bit longer when I go back but I
08:10
can’t say usually send me back in two
08:12
years so two weeks and had perfect
08:15
weather all the time and you know got to
08:18
walk you know Poldark the show called
08:21
Ark have you heard of that Paul no hold
08:24
on okay so it’s one of these big pba a
08:27
BBC historical dramas that the Brits do
08:30
so well the PBS
08:32
you know then take and run and it goes
08:35
quite a function here in the states it’s
08:36
got a massive following in the UK and
08:38
it’s actually about a guy that comes
08:39
back from the American War of
08:42
Independence and he’s this you know
08:45
Cornish landowner and he tries to
08:48
restart his life in Cornwall right which
08:51
is where the center of the mining in the
08:52
Industrial Revolution was
08:54
corn will mind the metal that built the
08:57
industrial world in southwest England
08:59
and it’s absolutely stunning the scenery
09:03
the landscapes are stunning and anybody
09:06
who doesn’t know Poldark hasn’t got a
09:08
clue what I’m talking about but any of
09:09
your listeners who have will be excited
09:12
to hear that I was walking the coastline
09:14
that you see in Poldark and and you know
09:17
visiting some of the little churches and
09:19
chapels that appear in the show and they
09:21
look right now just as they did in the
09:23
show which is set around the early 1800s
09:27
that gives you some idea of what I’ve
09:30
been enjoying oh nice yeah well cool and
09:34
we had someone ask what the jokes were
09:37
that you were saying it wasn’t really a
09:38
joke what they missed when your audio
09:41
was off but he was just asking a Jew why
09:43
he referred to the year of our Lord
09:45
um 2019 and I I told him you know we
09:48
live in a society basically um so well
09:52
that’s good so uh so you’ve been doing
09:54
what so the last time we had you on we
09:57
were talking about something that you
09:58
had just started then called the weapons
10:00
of mass persuasion program and obviously
10:03
we have a whole episode about that it is
10:05
episode number I want to say 17 No 19
10:10
okay I don’t know it’s it is an episode
10:15
that we had a while back um but if you
10:19
will just give us a brief yeah 19 what
10:22
19 weaponized libertarianism with Robyn
10:25
Curnow um that was the one where you
10:27
famously said that a good number of
10:29
libertarians are mildly autistic among
10:32
other things you said all the good
10:33
things that was that that was my
10:35
takeaway that’s what I remember when
10:37
people say what if someone’s idea that
10:39
might have been your what summary
10:42
without your summary of of what I was
10:45
something longer than I said it’s easy
10:49
it’s hazy it’s hazy it’s hazy it was it
10:51
was it was almost twenty episodes ago
10:53
something about autism and you that was
10:57
what I remember libertarianism
10:58
libertarianism autism Robin Koerner and
11:00
that I made the the what’s the
11:02
association and that’s now how I
11:05
describe it to people
11:06
it was the autism episode
11:08
it was the number 19 number and and this
11:12
is 37 right so another prime number wow
11:15
they really are 53 or something so then
11:18
we’re definitely doing the autism thing
11:21
now definitely we’re going or at least
11:25
good with numbers if not I on this by
11:29
training right this is this is one of
11:30
the reasons why I then just repeat
11:32
nonsense when it comes to politics and
11:33
political psychology I actually care
11:36
about getting things right rather than
11:37
spouting whatever I’ve been
11:39
indoctrinated with which is what most
11:40
universities seem to you about these
11:42
days but I would spend my time the
11:43
university doing physics and and doing
11:45
numbers so so yeah yeah you’re an actual
11:49
like you were doing a thing you weren’t
11:50
just theorizing you’re actually doing an
11:53
actual thing wait you can’t make shit up
11:55
and get them past exams
11:57
you just can’t yeah so was it did you
12:01
transition into politics so that you
12:03
could do that so you could just make
12:05
shit up and then was it like me and this
12:07
is so much easier to just just make it
12:09
up
12:09
you know I hate you know because I was a
12:11
physicist and a philosopher of science
12:13
that’s what I did my masters in I was
12:16
always something under the intellectual
12:18
peerless you know I’ve always liked
12:19
getting truth I’ve always been like a
12:21
truck I’ve always been a truth seeker so
12:23
you know cool cool economics of dismal
12:26
science and you know that you lay every
12:28
economist or even politician down end to
12:31
end and they still wouldn’t reach a
12:33
conclusion right I mean it’s like that I
12:36
didn’t was interested in in that that
12:38
that wasn’t intellectually appealing to
12:39
me I have neither of those disciplines
12:41
until I’m actually I discovered it was
12:44
just a thing that turned me it was a
12:46
Peter Schiff I ever told you this fight
12:48
no I don’t believe your video so um I
12:51
mean this is a little anecdote but what
12:52
the hell it’s relevant III I was doing
12:56
some research for a book I was thinking
12:58
about writing it was kind of the first
12:59
incarnation of the book that you
13:01
mentioned yeah ultimately if you can
13:03
keep it and I was interested in the
13:06
American identity and American
13:07
self-perception and I was just online
13:09
you know researching and I came across
13:12
this YouTube video peter schiff was
13:14
right which many libertarians and
13:16
certainly austrian economist types will
13:19
no doubt have seen a version of
13:21
and here was this guy Peter Schiff
13:23
predicting the housing crash right
13:26
before it happened not only saying it
13:30
was gonna happen more or less when but
13:32
expounding the basic axioms on which he
13:34
made the prediction and then doing kind
13:36
of like the logical the logic of the
13:38
prediction and dumping out with a
13:40
testable prediction of the kind of Karl
13:42
Popper would have been quite happy with
13:43
and I was like she sounds like somebody
13:46
doing like real thinking and kind of
13:47
something a little bit sign sciency I’m
13:49
he’s doing he’s doing a thing he’s
13:51
actually doing a thing he’s doing a
13:53
thing and and so I and he’d mentioned in
13:56
this video this weird thing called
13:58
Austrian economics never laughs so I
14:00
just you know next thing was done Google
14:02
that what’s this dude in an investment
14:04
company on a news show from that
14:06
Austrian economic like sounds a bit
14:08
obscure so I look that up and you know
14:12
so I read the wiki page on that and that
14:14
link to libertarianism and then I read
14:16
the Ouija page on that and the rest was
14:18
history so that’s how I got into so you
14:21
guys shift pills basically yeah yeah I
14:24
got shifted you could say you got sure
14:26
oh that’s even better yeah it’s even
14:28
better than what I came up with oh cool
14:32
cool so and weapons of mass persuasion
14:34
you know give us a I guess a you know a
14:40
30,000 foot view you know Reader’s
14:43
Digest version of what weapons of mass
14:44
persuasion inspiration which is you know
14:47
weapons of mass persuasion calm it’s a
14:49
program more than a hundred units all
14:51
videos they’re easy to consume we’ve
14:54
kind of interactive you know question
14:57
and answers and also live webinars with
14:59
me monthly you can sign up to it on
15:02
weapons of mass persuasion calm it is a
15:04
program in what I call the art of
15:07
political persuasion it basically it’s
15:09
all the political psychology you need to
15:12
know to start actually not only winning
15:15
arguments but winning supporters
15:16
actually changing minds because as most
15:19
activists know especially libertarian
15:21
ones winning arguments doesn’t usually
15:24
win supporters and in fact it doesn’t
15:26
win doesn’t it that’s weird because I
15:30
have I have told a lot of people that
15:32
I’m right and
15:35
yeah and and yeah and yet libertarians
15:39
do not win elections as a result of my
15:42
being right so some would say that that
15:45
kind of proves the point that you were
15:48
just making well it’s it’s a pointed in
15:52
favor it’s a yes keeping my scientific
15:57
hat on I was gonna say yeah it’s very
15:59
science II response but uh okay so cool
16:01
so with that in mind that that’s sort of
16:04
and that’s sort of your mo I mean even
16:05
before weapons of mass but really
16:06
weapons of mass persuasion was was that
16:09
you have to actually relate to people
16:13
and you actually have to talk to people
16:15
where they are and get where they’re
16:17
coming from and build you know for lack
16:21
of a better word for the for introvert
16:23
Aryans you know make connections with
16:26
people and actually like have a human
16:28
experience with people you can’t shove
16:30
ideology and um you know especially like
16:34
especially a fringe ideology but you
16:37
can’t you know something that’s outside
16:38
of the Overton Window you can’t shove it
16:41
down their face with you know even if
16:43
it’s right and we were all or most of us
16:45
are either libertarian or libertarian
16:47
leaning that are watching this we
16:48
believe we’re right awesome and we can
16:53
tell them we’re right and that doesn’t
16:56
make us wrong but it also doesn’t really
16:59
help and it kind of makes us look it’s
17:02
some would say smug I would definitely
17:05
say smug I am I am serious smug good
17:08
this show is mostly about being smug it
17:12
takes a lot to tell for me to tell my
17:15
wife let me let me get let me get myself
17:17
in here because this is this is a this
17:19
for me to tell my wife my opinion is so
17:23
important that I’m taking over the guest
17:26
room and it’s going to be my studio
17:28
where I tell people how right I am once
17:31
a week so in the spirit of not doing
17:34
that um in the spirit of actually
17:38
building stuff with people talk to us
17:40
about your new project and and and you
17:42
know what you want to want to accomplish
17:43
with that okay so before I do just to
17:46
your point I just want to say kind of
17:49
encapsulate it by saying look you can’t
17:51
change somebody’s mind unless you
17:53
understand how mines actually made up
17:55
just like wouldn’t try and get a car
17:58
working if the engine was faulty without
18:00
understanding an engines work I mean
18:03
it’s at that level of basic but people
18:06
do that all the time when it comes to
18:07
political persuasion so you go through
18:09
weapons of mass persuasion and you
18:11
actually learn the process by which
18:13
people form political opinions and then
18:17
I’ll teach you how to hack that process
18:18
that’s the simplest way to put it
18:20
very cool um but to your last question
18:24
or your most recent questions um where
18:29
to begin with the new project all right
18:30
yes so some people have been following
18:32
me on social media will notice will have
18:36
noticed that a few months ago before I
18:38
headed off to the UK I am I kind of put
18:41
out a cryptic request for anybody who
18:44
follows my work likes my style and would
18:48
be interested in finding out more about
18:50
a project a large project that I’m I was
18:54
developing but that I’m gonna need a
18:57
significant amount of volunteer help for
18:59
and and a few people came forward which
19:03
was great and I’ve actually therefore
19:06
lined up a little team all of whom I
19:10
have given more information about this
19:12
project that I’m about to give to you
19:14
but the gist of it spike
19:17
and listeners it is it’s kind of the
19:21
following um and I should preface it by
19:24
saying I think a lot of folks in the
19:26
Liberty movement know that if you like
19:29
my kind of claim to fame my pedigree if
19:31
you like in political persuasion was
19:33
what I did with blue Republicans so like
19:34
back in 2012
19:36
um I created the biggest coalition for
19:39
Ron Paul that the campaign identified
19:42
called blue Republicans right you know
19:47
actually outside the political spectrum
19:48
largely progressives and I I I kicked it
19:51
off with this article called if you love
19:52
peace become a blue Republican just for
19:55
a year and hundreds of thousands if not
19:57
more people identified blue Republican
20:01
many or most of them Democrat
20:02
some independence and switch parties and
20:05
voted for Ron Paul so that’s that’s the
20:08
story now I say that because in some
20:13
ways what I’m looking to do now is is a
20:17
version of that for modern times but
20:22
instead of doing it for the benefit of a
20:25
particular candidate I’m doing it with a
20:28
more fundamental goal the more general
20:30
goal might say of well of solving a
20:35
problem that 70% of people anecdotally
20:38
an according to polls see with American
20:40
politics right now
20:41
which is that we are off the end in
20:45
terms of tribalism polarization divisive
20:49
Ness and division and a desire not to
20:53
judge ideas without judging the people
20:55
who have right and there’s a beer but on
20:58
CNN or Fox News or MSNBC or your
21:00
favorite youtuber in the political realm
21:03
and pretty much you’re gonna hear yeah
21:06
you know everything is I’m kind of
21:08
thought because we can’t talk to each
21:10
other we don’t trust each other all of
21:12
this stuff so lots of people get that
21:15
that’s a problem and in what I do you
21:17
know giving speeches and presentations
21:18
you know in the in the political world
21:21
anecdotally I see that is indeed the
21:24
case so there’s this idea that people
21:26
want to they don’t want it to be this
21:29
way they don’t want to have to vote for
21:31
their tribe they don’t um yeah like this
21:35
because there’s no other option um they
21:37
certainly don’t wanna have to vote for
21:38
the lesser of two evils ribes but on the
21:41
other hands they hate themselves for
21:42
doing it because at the end of the day
21:43
when you’ve only got a choice between
21:45
two tribes you’re gonna vote for the one
21:46
that you think is you know not the most
21:49
evil well harm reduction like like doing
21:52
the least harm possible when you’re
21:55
given to terrible option right and I
21:57
think people accept that it’s accept
21:59
that here’s the thing like it’s only
22:00
it’s not really the least harm possible
22:03
in principle it’s just the least harm
22:06
that I can conveniently do a dis
22:08
election right and we just caught up in
22:12
that and people are sick of it um and
22:14
and maybe a little
22:16
specifically um and again this is
22:20
confirmed by a lot of polls and surveys
22:22
now decent that’s a decent conservatives
22:27
decent liberals progressives um
22:30
middle-of-the-road Democrats
22:32
middle-of-the-road Republicans make most
22:36
of them are looking at the extreme
22:38
identitarian wings on the left and the
22:42
right even on their side we’re going
22:44
this is kind of nuts right like this is
22:48
what we don’t want to be in some
22:51
respects you know decent normal regular
22:54
moderate Republicans are feeling like
22:59
they’ve got more that they’re Republican
23:02
neighbor actually has more in common
23:04
with them then the extreme version of
23:07
the Democrat of which you know the party
23:09
they might be a member so easily yeah
23:11
yeah yeah definitely so there’s this
23:14
readiness to kind of reorient and
23:17
certainly I could talk a lot about how
23:19
the pendulum is kind of swung to the
23:21
extreme on both sides right and so so
23:26
this is kind of the background and when
23:28
I say this to people as I’m saying it’s
23:29
you I’m as you have just done people say
23:32
yeah pretty much yeah
23:33
obviously yeah yeah so now the next
23:35
point to make there aren’t a lot of
23:37
people arguing against that like no
23:39
politics is great right now I have
23:41
really good choices and I’m happy with
23:43
them right yeah no exactly yeah
23:47
so so and what’s happened is this
23:49
pendulum is kind of hitting its limit in
23:51
as much as this the reaction has already
23:54
begun in this extreme the seeds of the
23:59
reversal have been sown so for example
24:01
you have organizations with names like
24:04
more in common
24:06
purple America greater angels that are
24:10
trying to facilitate they’re trying to
24:13
do in a in certain ways what I try and
24:16
do on a big scale with my political
24:18
communication which is to break through
24:21
to people who may completely disagree
24:23
with you who may not trust you you may
24:25
be skeptical of your mole basis by all
24:28
of the things that
24:30
cause political dialogue to be so hard
24:32
to be persuasion to be so hard
24:34
especially in the environment that we
24:36
just outlined so I’m so you’ve got these
24:40
organizations there if you like solving
24:43
bits of the problem so so for example
24:47
one of those organizations actually
24:50
finds Republicans and Democrats and
24:52
facilitates discussions between them and
24:55
you have to be a Republican or a
24:57
Democrat you’re on one of the in one of
24:59
the tribes to participate right and so
25:02
right that’s a good way in right that’s
25:04
something that they’re doing um it’s
25:06
really um it’s interesting it’s having
25:09
some positive effect um I’m actually
25:11
interested in that check out an
25:13
interview I did with a guy called John
25:15
Wood jr. from better angels which you
25:18
can find on youtube just Google Turner
25:19
would you John Wood jr. whatever all
25:22
right I put it in the youtube search
25:24
there there’s a lot of interesting
25:26
things now that’s all great but people
25:29
censor the problem is very fundamental
25:32
and very general and what I do best of
25:37
all is you know I cry I can create
25:41
political brands that facilitate
25:44
effective marketing of good ideas and so
25:51
I see the piece of I see the bit of the
25:55
solution that’s still missing there’s no
25:58
brand that might enable me that say if I
26:00
was a Democrat to talk to my Republican
26:05
friend like there’s nothing I can hang
26:07
my hat on that enables me to talk to my
26:10
Republican friend without him feeling
26:12
threatened by my democratic values if
26:14
I’m a Democrat right like there’s
26:15
nothing to break through the suspicion
26:17
there’s no no it’s about what I am right
26:23
everyone is everyone is under is waiting
26:26
for their belief system to be attacked
26:28
and they’ve tied it to theirs in many
26:29
times many ways very often their
26:32
self-worth so now you’re not just
26:34
attacking what they believe you’re
26:35
attacking who they are and we talk I
26:37
believe we talked about this in the
26:39
autism episode um where you know where
26:42
we said that you know pee
26:44
we’ll have this tied to who they are we
26:46
do listen if you’re watching an
26:47
hour-long podcast with two guys talking
26:50
about libertarianism this is a part of
26:52
who you are and when someone challenges
26:55
that even within libertarianism when
26:58
someone challenges that your your
27:02
hackles go up your your defenses go up
27:04
and you’re no longer having a discussion
27:07
you’re already in fight mode to the
27:10
extent that you’re now going to defend
27:12
your belief system throwing out any
27:15
reason or logic you’ve now you’ve
27:17
entrenched your beliefs this is what I
27:19
believe I don’t need to a question or or
27:23
examine that anymore because I’m not
27:25
having a friendly dialogue with someone
27:26
I am now in a fight for the very you
27:29
know the integrity of my belief system
27:31
and and and and myself as a person as a
27:34
result of it there’s a lot of that and
27:36
it’s basically a zero-sum fight right
27:38
and yes yes in American politics if I’m
27:42
a Democrat and somebody’s talking to me
27:45
who disagrees with me right which is the
27:47
reason I’m having a discussion in the
27:48
first place if he even moved enough to
27:50
be having the discussion and to be
27:52
engaging me and to be trying to change
27:53
my mind
27:54
guess what he’s from he’s a Republican
27:57
in other words he’s from the opposition
27:59
he’s not just from this other safe you
28:02
know whatever it is he’s got the label
28:04
that says I can’t trust him
28:06
right and and that is the stuff of
28:08
American politics yeah he’s not just a
28:11
Republican he’s an anti-democratic ease
28:13
against me yeah right yeah because it
28:15
yeah because it’s essentially
28:17
oppositional and it’s not just
28:18
oppositional it’s yeah there’s been a
28:22
lot of moral mudslinging right so it’s
28:25
not yester I opposed on your policies
28:28
it’s that I don’t trust where you’re
28:30
coming from oh yeah yeah people like you
28:36
um yeah depending on what side you’re on
28:39
you know want to kill babies or
28:41
interfere with my body right what
28:44
whatever it is both of which are pretty
28:45
shit depending on what side of that is
28:48
missile its missile right oh geez the
28:51
very visceral yep yeah right so this is
28:54
all still the setup for where I’m going
28:56
now I mentioned blue Republican
28:57
one of the reasons that the blue
28:58
Republican idea was so powerful why it
29:03
actually created an identifiable
29:05
coalition that actually moved dial for
29:08
one polls kind of see in 2012 to such an
29:11
extent was that I didn’t just make a
29:14
case that there was a great progressive
29:16
argument pro-peace pro civil rights
29:18
argument for this ultra conservative
29:20
Republican as they called him back then
29:22
um I actually created an identity that
29:26
meant that I could still myself identify
29:28
as a progressive Democrat and then go
29:31
and vote
29:31
become Republican for a year and vote
29:34
for Ron Paul and I that in that case the
29:36
identity was blue Republican so myself a
29:39
blue Republican and a Democrat so it was
29:41
a kind of a cover right it was kind of a
29:44
way to enable me to move in a different
29:46
direction according to my principles and
29:48
conscience without feeling the threat
29:52
against my identity which was kind of
29:54
what we were talking about right so now
29:56
when it comes to solving the problem of
29:59
the division in American politics you’ve
30:02
got to do the same thing that
30:05
psychological function has to be also
30:08
served today we have to give people a
30:11
positive identity that they feel that
30:13
they can adopt without saying like let’s
30:16
say if they’re a Democrat they can still
30:18
be a Democrat but they can be this other
30:20
thing too that when they identify
30:22
somebody else with this other thing to
30:24
this other identity those two people
30:26
even if they completely disagree on
30:28
policy on politics even if one’s a
30:30
Democrat and one Republican can say you
30:31
know what I’m sure I’m going to disagree
30:33
with you on everything but because I
30:35
have this other identity that you also
30:38
have I don’t need to be threatened by
30:40
the way this discussion is going to go
30:42
because we are both positively buying
30:44
into a certain set of principles with
30:47
respect to how we conduct politics not
30:50
the policies we support but how are we
30:52
going to talk to each other how we’re
30:54
going to assess our policies how we’re
30:56
going to assess each other’s arguments
30:57
how we’re going to conduct those
30:58
arguments so what I’ve done is this new
31:01
project is the creation of a new
31:06
identity a new brand and you will know
31:09
if it succeeds because
31:11
when somebody asks you in the future in
31:16
a few years what are your politics you
31:19
might say well I’m a libertarian but I’m
31:21
a libertarian or I’m a Democrat Lima but
31:25
I’m a her Democrat I’m a Republican but
31:27
I’m a this new word Republican so that’s
31:31
the signal and it’s gonna be like that
31:33
again it’s just that label that means we
31:37
it’s a meta tribe or a tribe that
31:39
transcends the the politically divided
31:41
tribes with Republican Democrat and so
31:44
it’s gonna do a lot of psychological
31:46
work now I’m not just coming up with a
31:47
name and a brand I am doing that but in
31:50
the launch of this I am actually going
31:52
to lay out the positive I’ll call them
31:58
again meta political principles there I
32:01
know people across the political
32:03
spectrum can sign up to that reflect how
32:06
they want politics to be done that they
32:08
can sign up to as individuals without
32:10
conceding any of their passionately held
32:14
current political views so for example
32:17
um you know the idea that we should be
32:23
able at least in the first instance to
32:25
judge ideas without judging the people
32:27
who have them that’s a good one the idea
32:31
that that’s a good one end of it that’s
32:33
probably a big one too
32:35
the idea that whatever your policy
32:38
position the moral burden is on the
32:41
person who would impose on another
32:43
person to make the case you’re not
32:46
saying you net-like so a libertarian so
32:48
you never impose on the person table
32:50
right okay that might be a bit too much
32:52
for progressives but you can get a
32:54
progressive to say okay if I’m gonna
32:56
make the case that I gonna take
32:57
something away from someone to give it
32:58
to someone or I’ve got to tell somebody
33:00
what they can or cannot do the moral
33:02
burden is on me
33:04
to prove it now that’s a principle for
33:08
judging policy that you can get
33:09
conservatives and progressives to buy
33:11
into and and there’s I’m gonna hang you
33:14
know 10 or 20 such things on this one
33:17
word label that I am confident if I can
33:20
get the platforms I can get enough
33:22
people to say you know I’m a Democrat
33:24
I’m
33:25
I’m a libertarian or I think it’s all a
33:26
bunch of hogwash but I’m a visting I
33:30
mean yeah this is how yeah yeah and so
33:36
that’s that’s the idea and I’ve you know
33:39
I said that a bunch of people have come
33:41
forward and expressed an interest in
33:43
this project so I’ve actually told them
33:46
a lot of what I told you and then I sent
33:48
them a launch article an article that
33:52
basically outlines um what this is in in
33:58
more detail in its specifics and said
34:01
you know read this and if you think you
34:04
could say yes sign me up to this
34:07
regardless of what your current politics
34:08
are could you say you are also of this
34:11
as well as being a Democrat a
34:12
libertarian Republican if so it’s
34:14
successful and let me know if you want
34:18
to volunteer to help me make it on Main
34:20
Street and
34:20
and I’m pleased to say that almost all
34:24
of them said Wow
34:26
yes this is it this is this is what
34:28
we’ve been meeting um so I say I think
34:31
it’s it’s the the everybody has
34:34
identified the problem at a fundamental
34:37
and general level because the problem is
34:40
described fundamentally in January but
34:42
there isn’t a solution that mirrors the
34:44
problem that is understood equally as
34:48
fundamentally and equally as generally
34:49
and a good writer a good persuader is
34:53
able to put into words feelings that
34:56
people have things that people want that
34:58
they can’t articulate themselves they
35:00
give up you know an effective persuader
35:03
can give others the way of articulating
35:08
bringing into their conscious mind and
35:10
therefore using something they feel at
35:12
their gut so that’s the skill I’m
35:14
bringing to what I now think is I think
35:17
say 70% of Americans think is the
35:19
fundamental problem with American
35:21
politics which is that it’s broken very
35:24
good very good yeah and that’s that
35:26
sounds very good I actually I have a few
35:27
questions about this this new program
35:30
but first we are I don’t have I usually
35:33
have an amazing segue and I don’t right
35:34
now other than we’re about halfway into
35:36
the episode and so we have
35:38
do our little plug to help pay our bills
35:42
I wish this paid our bills it will soon
35:43
but guys are any of you looking to make
35:47
a podcast because if you are you want to
35:50
check out anchored FM anchor is the
35:53
easiest way to make a podcast and it is
35:56
everything I’m about to tell you is
35:57
actually true so I’m not just I’m not I
35:59
am chilling but I’m not Schilling
36:01
Schilling like this is true all these
36:03
things are true is the easiest way to
36:04
make a podcast anchor gives you
36:06
everything you need in one place for
36:08
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36:08
and you can use it right from your phone
36:11
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36:13
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36:15
it has creation tools that allow you to
36:18
record and edit your podcast so it
36:20
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36:24
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36:36
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36:44
gone to many other platforms that said
36:46
oh yeah you make a lot of money and you
36:48
don’t make any money unless you have
36:50
thousands upon thousands of listeners
36:52
for each episode if there’s any kind of
36:55
a dip you’re not making money anymore
36:56
with anchor you’re making money right
36:57
off the bat we’re actually making money
36:59
the first time Muddy Waters media
37:01
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37:14
30-second plug that is required to be
37:16
made you’ll be doing that as well once
37:18
you’re on anchor and if you are on
37:20
anchor be sure to let us know we’ll
37:22
check out your podcast we will
37:24
positively review your podcasts unless
37:26
it’s like Nazism or something like that
37:28
I can’t promise well I mean if it’s a
37:30
tear like you’re advocating something
37:32
terrible we can’t give a positive review
37:35
for like you know I don’t know some kind
37:37
of eugenics thing or something like that
37:39
communism like wait you know I mean
37:41
there are limits to what but it’s
37:43
something that isn’t going to result in
37:45
lots of people dying we will give you a
37:46
positive review and we hope you give us
37:49
a positive review on our anchor dot F M
37:51
be sure to check that out so Robin back
37:55
to the actual show thank you for your
37:58
patience on that I’m yeah thank you so
38:02
give me so with this this program it’s
38:08
not a program it’s a new identity it’s a
38:10
new brand it is a new brand you could
38:13
say okay so it looks okay fair enough
38:16
it’s so they just declare I’m this this
38:19
is what I buy into these please
38:22
okay so let’s I’m gonna do when I tell
38:26
people I’m an anarchists I’m gonna do to
38:28
you what what you did that well how will
38:29
that work and I have to describe the
38:32
entirety of how a society will work fair
38:35
enough so how will so how does this play
38:38
out give us an example of how a common
38:41
political conversation is happening now
38:44
compared to how it would happen under
38:46
this new in a way it’s really really
38:49
simple because um if you if you and I
38:52
both say I’m a this new thing I’m
38:57
getting it starts with H so I’m gonna
38:59
start all right I’m an age you say I’m
39:02
an age then then because we both know
39:04
what that means that signals to each
39:07
other that we’ve signed up two basic
39:10
principles of civility visa vie our
39:12
political discussions and disagreements
39:14
so now we can actually have those
39:16
discussions now I’m not filtering what
39:19
you say through um oh I need to be
39:22
skeptical because he’s gonna try and you
39:25
know bait-and-switch me on some
39:26
principle or try and you know pull me
39:28
right on this and then he’s got me you
39:31
know eating babies right like a lot of
39:33
people seem to think of their political
39:35
opponents um and and by saying I’m an H
39:38
I’m an H
39:39
you’re both implicitly or maybe
39:41
explicitly signing up to a set of
39:43
principles by which you conduct the
39:46
discussion and then judge the appeal the
39:49
opinions that you’re expressing and the
39:51
arguments that your major um and they
39:54
are carefully chosen to not be
39:57
politically loaded at all right so you
40:00
don’t have to have an ideology all
40:02
you’ve got to do is basically believe
40:05
in the fact that you yeah you have to
40:08
recognize the fact that everybody’s may
40:11
be wrong on a few things that people
40:13
they disagree with you on necessarily
40:16
evil that um you know you mean you mean
40:18
even other people not no not even if you
40:24
are absolutely omniscient right now
40:26
because you have everything at some
40:29
point in your life God like yes right so
40:33
yeah so it’s okay on a journey because
40:37
that’s what you’ve been on um well I
40:39
what I was on a journey until I arrived
40:43
at my final form which is what I believe
40:47
this very second not next week next week
40:50
I’ll I will have gone off the rail but
40:51
right now in this moment the pinnacle of
40:54
correctness yes and that is and people
40:57
obviously we all feel that we’re correct
41:00
whenever ya put out of use but we forget
41:03
and this doesn’t relate to the hacking
41:05
the process by which minds are made up
41:07
we forget the process by which we got
41:09
there we’d ever get for example you know
41:13
although we experience ourselves as
41:15
believing certain things specially in
41:17
politics for the reasons the logical
41:20
reasons the factual reasons we give when
41:22
we’re let’s say having a Facebook
41:23
argument trying to convince somebody
41:24
else to agree with us um yeah what we
41:26
forget is that what we forget is that
41:31
maybe we were exposed to our current
41:34
opinion by somebody who we trusted right
41:38
now trust in the source of information
41:41
or in the source of an argument is a
41:43
massive driver in whether we actually
41:45
end up believing the argument right um
41:48
oh yeah probably the biggest one a yes
41:52
arguably it is so yeah if you can remind
41:55
people of that I’m like I just did there
41:57
even though you know people will still
42:00
experience themselves as believing what
42:01
they believe the reasons they think they
42:02
believe it and you know believing
42:04
they’re right every day um if you remind
42:06
them of that they go oh yeah and it
42:09
knocked them out of that dogmatic space
42:11
right right cognitively in positional
42:14
space so but you know there’s more to
42:19
there’s other things like that so in
42:20
this in this um this new brand one of
42:23
the principles is the idea that we’ll
42:26
map that I measure my compassion by the
42:28
good that I do not just the strength of
42:29
my intentions now a lot of folks who
42:32
aren’t on the left will you’re safe I
42:34
say that they say that again cuz that’s
42:36
a big deal what you just said say that
42:38
one more time I measure my compassion by
42:41
the good that I do not the strength of
42:42
my intentions that’s a big one
42:45
anyway I’m sorry go ahead yeah now but
42:47
again whether you’re conservative
42:48
libertarian progressive none of the
42:51
above
42:52
most people will will by that that you
42:56
can set you that to them and they’ll go
42:57
yeah you know what I experienced myself
42:59
as you know being compassionate because
43:01
I’ve my intentions but yes I recognize
43:03
that at the end of the day if I am
43:06
passionately well-intended lis
43:08
advocating for eating babies and eating
43:10
babies doesn’t actually do any good then
43:12
there is a moral responsibility on me to
43:14
stop advocating for it right that the
43:16
fact that I felt really strongly about
43:18
that yesterday isn’t isn’t actually a
43:21
justification for maintaining that view
43:24
so there are certain things that um like
43:27
that
43:28
that you’re basically simply signing up
43:31
to without conceding any policy as I say
43:33
or any political view um by adopting by
43:36
declaring that you are an H which is
43:40
what I’m gonna call it for now
43:41
I’m I actually this word about what one
43:45
of our one of our viewers has described
43:47
it as principle H principle H so we’re
43:50
gonna go with that principle H thank you
43:53
to whoever that was Chris Reynolds
43:55
attorney at law who is very often
43:57
ironically he’s also the he is the
44:00
ongoing sponsor of the muttered waters
44:02
of freedom Chris Reynolds attorney at
44:04
law
44:05
Alexandra occasi of Cortes hate minute
44:07
so you know not principle H not being
44:11
applied in that situation but but he did
44:14
name it so this is now his thing so ok
44:16
principle age I like that as a is that
44:19
like a holding a holding name for it yes
44:22
yeah it’s a placeholder name yeah it’s a
44:24
placeholder name yeah yeah placeholder
44:26
name that’s great um so is it so there’s
44:29
a few so I mean libertarians might like
44:31
this one um
44:32
do no harm works in politics – now
44:35
that’s quite a libertarian idea first do
44:37
no harm right again where is the mole
44:39
moral burden but Progressive
44:42
Conservatives will say yes that is the
44:44
value right um so again I’m taking the
44:47
ideology out
44:49
it’s meta ideological it’s meta
44:51
political and it’s a positive statement
44:54
of what not doing tribalism polarization
44:59
and divisive miss looks like it’s not
45:00
just complaining about these things it’s
45:02
the positive opposite
45:04
that’s what principle H is is all about
45:08
so yeah so basically this name it’s the
45:13
power of the word like those I blue with
45:15
blue Republican literally just by
45:17
writing one article and coining the face
45:19
blue Republican all over the world and
45:21
that’s literally true all over the world
45:23
people identify his blue Republicans I
45:25
met a guy I might have told you this
45:27
before in over lunch in Belgium in love
45:31
and Belgium who in the course of
45:33
conversation discover I was the blue
45:34
republican guy and told me he’d got on a
45:36
plane to New Hampshire at the hand out
45:37
blue Republican leaflets now oh wow yeah
45:40
that happened because um that happened
45:45
because this identity allowed people to
45:48
know that they weren’t the only one who
45:50
felt this way right there were a bunch
45:52
of them they were team Glee Republicans
45:54
and these this is a new team teammate
45:57
right so you can be Democrat Republican
45:59
but you could all be on Team H and and
46:01
again that’s not why this is gonna work
46:04
that’s not the only reason another
46:07
fundamental reason why this is gonna
46:09
work if I can get the exposure that this
46:11
is gonna need because there’s enough
46:14
people right now out there already
46:16
feeling it right
46:17
I’m not having to convince them they’re
46:19
already feeling it they just need
46:21
somebody to put into words the thing
46:24
that’s gonna make them go uh-huh yes
46:27
that’s it that’s what I’d be feeling yes
46:28
yes yes right right um and so it’s yeah
46:32
and that’s important if I done this at
46:34
another time it wouldn’t have power just
46:35
like blue Republican at another time
46:37
would be meaningless um it’s it’s those
46:40
very unique time for that because you
46:42
had you had
46:45
you had a situation where someone who
46:49
transcended the standard left/right
46:52
narrative who had actually made it to
46:55
the stage of you know I mean he didn’t
46:58
register but he may actually made it to
47:00
the debate stage and people were talking
47:01
about him and he had ads on TV and you
47:04
know he was a legit candidate who a
47:09
hardcore right-wing Republican could
47:12
find every bit as much in him as a
47:14
hardcore left-wing Democrat could that
47:17
they agree with even if there were other
47:19
parts of it that they either didn’t
47:20
agree with or found you know scary or
47:23
you know or maybe you know neither here
47:26
nor there on Ron Paul like he
47:28
transcended a lot of that because he was
47:30
a libertarian and and you know that
47:33
brand applied to Bob Dole or just voting
47:38
Republican in the 2002 midterms or what
47:43
I liked none it wouldn’t have fit during
47:44
those times right you the blue Viper
47:48
compared with the mage that blue yeah
47:50
blue republicanism would not have made
47:51
sense or standard issue
47:55
yeah so so that’s it you know and and an
47:59
important point about this this identity
48:02
thing which you know you broke is that
48:05
you’ve got a you know if you do identify
48:08
something and you’ve got friends who
48:10
identified with that thing you you can’t
48:14
you won’t do anything where you where
48:16
people did you like care about might
48:20
feel that you’re betraying them or
48:22
betraying your your principles that you
48:24
hold together and so you know the
48:28
solution so for today you know if I’m a
48:32
Republican that wants more civil
48:34
discourse and more effective discourse
48:36
with the Democrat I need some way of
48:38
being able to talk to a Democrat without
48:40
all my Republican buddies that I still
48:42
like you know I still want to work with
48:44
politically whatever it might be
48:45
thinking I’ve gone to the dark side
48:47
right and that’s the importance of how
48:49
importance of having the transcending
48:52
new brand or identity so you know the
48:55
reasonably Republican was important was
48:57
I could be a Democrat blue
48:59
republican and go to my Democrat friends
49:01
say look I’m still a progressive I still
49:04
believe in liberal principles I’m even
49:06
I’m in the Republican Party I’m not of
49:08
it but I’m a blue Republican not on the
49:12
dark side and so yeah these this is what
49:15
branding is so important political this
49:17
is why political identity why in a way
49:20
all politics the politics of identity
49:21
I’ve got a unit in my couple of units in
49:24
my weapons of mass persuasion course
49:26
understanding which about understanding
49:28
the sense in which that’s true all
49:31
politics in some way the politics of
49:33
identity I don’t mean man but it’s still
49:37
an identity it may be individual
49:38
identities or an ideological identity
49:40
but it’s an identity they’re they’re its
49:42
tribalism team sports whatever you want
49:44
to call it it is absolutely identity
49:47
based they have found their home and
49:48
you’re attacking their home get away
49:50
from my home in many cases that’s
49:52
exactly right and so you understand how
49:54
that operates which again what the
49:56
program is so so this light blue
49:58
Republican was designed for that purpose
50:00
at that time this principle H is
50:02
designed for you know this time and the
50:07
major fundamental problem in American
50:10
politics and by the way for libertarians
50:12
um you know there is a political open
50:16
goal or a meta political open goal right
50:18
now which is this disaffection with
50:22
mainstream politics and the way that you
50:26
you succeed when there’s mass
50:28
disaffection with mainstream politics
50:30
and I’ve written articles about this and
50:32
I’ve done speeches about this is you
50:34
reflect back the feeling of disaffection
50:37
to the disaffected majority or large
50:40
move disaffected minority you don’t tell
50:43
them what you think
50:45
ideologically like this is how the Vexin
50:47
party won in 45 days right
50:49
they didn’t go around trying to convert
50:52
anybody on any ideology there is no ism
50:54
in the Black Sea party right well
50:56
obviously that is the philosophical
50:58
basis obviously I mean Here I am as a
51:00
Liberty guy I’m all about the Beck
51:02
supply right but they’re not saying
51:04
right let me explain to you sound money
51:06
well no no no that what the hook is the
51:09
hook is your liberties been taken away
51:12
by people
51:13
don’t give a damn about
51:14
self-determination and your right to
51:16
choose your represent your you know your
51:18
representation earn and and you’ll
51:21
really pissed off about it because
51:22
you’ve been lied to and guess what you
51:25
have been lied to and get that’s
51:27
completely unacceptable that’s how you
51:30
bring people over to you politically
51:31
then when there’s listening to you
51:33
because they’re thinking this guy kind
51:35
of sees the world feels the world like I
51:37
do then that guy’s gonna be interested
51:39
in your ideology then they’re gonna
51:41
start asking you questions about policy
51:42
and then when they start asking
51:44
questions they’re telling you what you
51:47
now tell me about what you believe I
51:49
will be disposed to accept because I now
51:52
trust you morally I identify with you
51:55
enough that I not only am I not
51:56
threatened by wherever you’re coming
51:59
from I think I’m gonna like it and it
52:01
might answer some of my concerns cuz I
52:03
see you share my concerns right right
52:05
again larger Faraj is one of the best
52:08
people in politics in english-speaking
52:10
world of this and in it not not only is
52:15
he good at this I mean brexit party like
52:17
you said in 45 days now it kind of is
52:20
from the ashes of the you Kip or
52:21
whatever but the UK Independence Party
52:23
but not I mean it’s it it is it didn’t
52:28
exist two months ago and it is against a
52:31
headwind of major media and and what
52:35
we’re told is popular opinion that you
52:38
know brexit is about you know nativism
52:41
and rate you know bail was a hard right
52:47
conservative right yet fascism and you
52:50
know this is about you know destroying
52:52
our our you know you know destroying the
52:56
future of europe and and you know you
52:58
know throwing your the UK back into the
53:02
dark ages and we’re gonna this is how
53:04
world wars start is you know all this
53:05
crap and and and yet and you know and
53:09
the polls always show you know brexit
53:11
always outperforms the polls because
53:13
people feel browbeaten into not publicly
53:16
sharing this and yet just to prove your
53:19
point there browbeaten browbeaten
53:21
browbeaten gonna go yeah m’ling you know
53:22
I guess I’m in favor of remain or they
53:24
just don’t answer and they go well you
53:26
know I’m not real
53:27
sure what I think and then they show up
53:28
to the poll and they vote brexit or vote
53:31
you know yes son brexit for the
53:32
referendum which was not supposed to win
53:34
that was you know we talked about Donald
53:37
Trump we talked about the fact that the
53:39
polls showed he wasn’t gonna win but yet
53:41
in those last couple weeks it showed
53:43
that he was gonna do roughly what he did
53:45
which was come about two percentage
53:47
shore of the popular vote and the good
53:50
pollsters were saying hey look that
53:51
means he could win the electoral college
53:53
by a you know slim margin which he did
53:55
with brexit right up to the end they
53:57
were saying Pretz if the brexit is gonna
53:59
lose brexit is going to lose and it won
54:02
because of basically your principle
54:05
being applied by one side and the
54:07
opposite being applied of well do you
54:09
support brexit or do you support remain
54:11
remaining or how would ya or you a
54:14
xenophobia are you a you know a racist
54:16
homophobe wants to erase trans people
54:18
and and people go well i don’t want to
54:21
do all that so i guess i’m remain but
54:22
yet the brexit people are saying hey
54:24
look you’ve been lied to you may not
54:26
agree with us on everything but we all
54:28
have to agree that this isn’t you know
54:29
that this isn’t a good you know a good
54:31
thing that’s happened and we need to get
54:33
out of it people like i’m gonna quietly
54:35
agree with you and and that’s a perfect
54:37
example of that um Chris Reynolds says
54:42
the H is the answer we’ll definitely get
54:44
the Dems and Republicans to stop the
54:46
fighting that’s that’s what we hoped for
54:48
he also said well put rob and we’ve all
54:50
been lied to that’s a good common ground
54:52
hard to get hard to get agreement on
54:56
that though and that’s that’s the
54:57
problem which will which we’ll talk
54:58
about well in it I mean just to be clear
55:01
at this point the the being lied to in
55:06
is is is very stark in the UK right now
55:10
right I mean that has legs um
55:12
I mean that can be at the core of a
55:14
political campaign in the UK followed in
55:17
a way that it couldn’t be
55:18
I mean we’re being lied to all the time
55:21
in the US but we’re being lied to all
55:23
politicians are lying to us all the time
55:24
anyway yeah and that kind of low-grade
55:26
it’s a more abstract thing but this was
55:30
just like you know we will honor you
55:32
you’re gonna have a vote we’re gonna
55:34
honor it
55:34
oh no we won’t like it is so black
55:37
yeah I’m yep and so the sense of
55:39
injustice which I I
55:41
again this is a big thing in political
55:42
persuasion you got to speak to the
55:44
disaffection and the best type of
55:45
disinfection is is roar injustice human
55:48
non ideologically mediated injustice
55:52
it’s so raw and stark that you know um
55:57
that’s really the kind of yeah it’s it’s
56:01
a vist yeah it’s a visceral like we said
56:04
we do this yeah we did the opposite of
56:07
this yeah vote for us again anyway as
56:11
opposed to sort of the political
56:12
machination zuv you know promising this
56:15
in in degrees and then give it yeah it’s
56:18
a complete like the build the wall
56:19
fiasco is like he said he’s gonna build
56:21
the wall he’s still saying he’s gonna
56:23
build the wall he’s kind of saying he’s
56:25
gonna build the wall a little bit of the
56:26
walls been built but it’s not like he
56:29
said he’d build the wall and then said
56:30
I’m not building the wall screw the wall
56:32
and then you know black and white a
56:35
thing right you know I’m you know I um I
56:39
made a point in my latest article which
56:42
I wrote in April about legs of thing and
56:45
I could it in the mother of Parliament’s
56:47
this is how democracy dies that um I put
56:50
it this way and I never I haven’t seen
56:53
anybody else but it this way but the
56:55
truth is that Parliament actually
56:57
criminalized the implementation of the
57:01
result of the referendum they actually
57:04
criminalized like you can’t make that
57:06
shit up it’s not not only we not going
57:09
to um are we not going to honor the
57:12
referendum we’re going to make it
57:14
illegal to do so I mean you got some
57:17
serious have you got a license for that
57:20
brexit that’s the standard joke that’s
57:23
the joke about it you know with British
57:24
you know do you have a license for my
57:27
pourable British accent yeah you got a
57:29
license for that brixon Salem yeah so
57:33
it’s in your interesting times yeah you
57:36
know the thing that ghouls me and I
57:38
spend a lot of time you know fight
57:40
obviously yeah my main fight is for
57:43
liberty in the United States where I’ve
57:44
made my home but it seeing what Faraj
57:50
can do basically following the exact
57:53
recipe that I’ve laid
57:55
a libertarian party time and time again
57:57
and knowing that there’s a massive
57:59
political open goal here in the US right
58:02
now and that nobody there’s nobody
58:05
walking through it and in a way my
58:07
project H is is the beginnings of doing
58:11
that although I don’t have the resources
58:13
of an actual political part but yeah
58:16
it’s galling to me because I’m seeing
58:19
the wasted opportunity you know I I mean
58:23
today on my on my Facebook feed I
58:26
noticed something from the libertarian
58:28
party well yeah the level that they’re
58:30
at is um you know what kind of tote bag
58:33
do you do you prefer I’m like I mean
58:36
it’s that is that we’re what we’re doing
58:39
today yeah yeah I I’m just like yo
58:41
meanwhile for watch I mean you couldn’t
58:43
have a better case that it’s going on
58:45
right now right now in a country where
58:48
they speak the same language right I
58:50
mean it’s it’s it’s not even that far
58:54
away it’s really not even that far away
58:56
if you look at the world in general its
58:59
what New York to London is roughly the
59:02
same as New York to Los Angeles right
59:04
it’s not a lot in it I mean it’s yeah
59:07
yeah you can do that flight in five
59:10
hours
59:11
yeah across the pond is a real thing it
59:14
is literally across and and the more
59:16
narrow part of the pond to and yet here
59:19
we are so what it just break down the
59:21
totebag argument because I completely
59:23
missed this what what we don’t want to
59:26
devote too much time this but give me 40
59:28
seconds I don’t obsess people I mean I
59:30
you know I’ve seen this I’ve seen this
59:32
in organizations that I’ve um worked
59:35
with nonprofits right where you’re not
59:37
be doing on the marketing guy I’m the
59:39
communications guy right so somebody
59:41
sends me oh we should get bags and pens
59:43
and blah and blah and blah and I’m like
59:45
why
59:46
how many minds to gonna change well I
59:49
was like no no how many minds are gonna
59:51
change I’m a libertarian Penn great
59:54
right yeah like show me the data if you
59:56
can show me that a hundred tote bags is
59:58
one vote I’m interested but if you just
60:00
doing it because you can’t think of
60:02
anything else to do then I know exactly
60:04
what I can spend that money on and I can
60:06
guarantee that it will move
60:08
mine’s but having a tote bag doesn’t
60:10
move a mind now you can say oh yeah but
60:13
it keeps the brand and blah blah blah
60:15
I’m like no no no no look it yeah you
60:19
know what if I start I will just go and
60:20
I’ll be done I’ll be the libertarian
60:22
John PI again listen oh yeah exactly so
60:29
that I mean people loved it so if you
60:32
want to Star Trek listen the more you
60:35
get like that the people I know
60:40
yep principle eight you morons I’m so uh
60:46
so it’s so dialing back it’s one thing
60:51
that I that struck me and why I had you
60:52
on the first time besides the fact that
60:54
I love your writing and I love your
60:57
reasoning we don’t agree exactly on how
61:00
libertarian and you’re not completely
61:01
correct on libertarianism as I am you’re
61:06
not spike level libertarian as but to be
61:09
fair who is besides me yeah only I could
61:14
do that um but so what I liked about you
61:19
is and what you’re what you’re doing is
61:21
it was at the same time that I was
61:23
getting into stoicism and instead of
61:27
reacting to what people do and say going
61:31
internal and saying well why did I react
61:34
that way why did I have that kind of
61:36
reaction to this and um and and and and
61:41
this is sort of stoicism applied to
61:43
politics and so an example of that is
61:46
self-awareness if I may I mean because
61:49
stoicism has a connotation that I don’t
61:52
think you need to I know what you’re
61:54
saying has this kind of connotation of
61:57
of in a strength of inner assertion that
62:02
I actually and that you do need that
62:04
because you need some inner strength to
62:06
like to self observe right when you’re
62:10
in an argument politically let’s say any
62:12
way you want to go at the DISA thing
62:15
that the person said that was wrong and
62:17
you do need some kind of self control
62:20
which is not stoicism is about
62:21
all right ooh stop yourself reacting in
62:25
other words to be changed not by what
62:27
comes at you but by what comes from you
62:30
that all has flavors of stoicism but I
62:33
actually in in many ways I I think of
62:36
myself much more like a hedonist on
62:38
epicurean yet I am about this
62:43
self-awareness bit there is a minimum of
62:45
self control that I think what I’m about
62:48
is requires but I just think it’s I
62:53
guess what I’m saying is it’s not as
62:55
hard as all that it’s not as hard as
62:56
stoicism it’s just getting bored of
63:00
losing all the time or being ineffective
63:02
right like it’s it’s that’s a bit of
63:05
work but it’s not a ton of work because
63:06
the payoff is so immediate right it’s
63:10
like it’s not like for a self
63:11
flagellation it’s not like you’re going
63:13
without no no you’re not deacon you’re
63:16
not deconstructing who you are as a
63:17
person I’m going through a journey that
63:21
you don’t necessarily have to go to
63:22
through to apply this but this is part
63:24
of that and and one thing I noticed was
63:26
when I sort of became an anarchist
63:29
because I before that I was sort of more
63:30
of a libertarian leaning conservative
63:32
and then as I was kind of really
63:34
questioning the state and the whole
63:36
thing what I found is that I actually
63:38
now even though my belief system is far
63:41
further from the you know what Tom woods
63:45
calls the you know three by five card of
63:48
allowable opinion or what some people
63:49
call the Overton Window or whatever now
63:52
that even though it’s further outside of
63:54
it I’m actually slightly more relatable
63:56
to some people or they’re more open to
63:58
hearing what I have to say because now
63:59
they approach it from like almost like a
64:01
curiosity like what even is that as
64:04
opposed to when I would say well you
64:06
know I’m kind of a libertarian leaning
64:07
Republican and they’d hear libertarian
64:09
or Republican and if unless a Republican
64:13
would hear libertarian and they’d go oh
64:15
you mean like those Ron Paul idiots that
64:16
want the terrorists to win or or a
64:19
Democrat who’s just like oh you means
64:21
that that everyone’s dying in the
64:23
streets that the rich people can be you
64:24
know 20% richer or whatever and I’m and
64:27
and and now when I’m like I’m an
64:28
anarchist
64:29
I still get people that are like oh so
64:31
you want to you know throw a Molotov
64:32
cocktails that you know at you know
64:34
innocent people or what but for the most
64:37
part people are almost more like what’s
64:39
that about and and one thing I found is
64:42
when I’m around a bunch of conservatives
64:44
just dunking on you know progressives
64:47
and liberals I tend to find myself
64:49
sticking up for liberals slash saying
64:52
well you guys kind of do that too when
64:54
it comes to this and then when liberals
64:57
are doing the same thing bashing
64:58
conservatives I find myself kind of
65:00
going well you know you guys kind of do
65:01
that too and conservatives actually
65:03
don’t want people to die and what and
65:06
I’ve what I’ve what I’ve learned is why
65:10
don’t I maybe do that when I’m talking
65:12
to a conservative instead of immediately
65:15
putting my you know anarchist fight the
65:17
state at all costs hackles up why not
65:20
approach this the same way I approach
65:22
liberals talking about this conservative
65:24
and say this guy doesn’t mean this you
65:26
know person guy woman whatever doesn’t
65:28
mean ill they just you know that I
65:33
disagree with with how they’re gonna do
65:35
it but they don’t actually want bad
65:37
things to happen they want good things
65:39
to happen they’re actually very
65:41
passionate about wanting good things to
65:42
happen and I need to have a conversation
65:44
with them about what that means as
65:46
opposed to just beating them over the
65:49
head and calling them a bootlicker or
65:50
whatever right and and you know to put
65:53
some you know something specific on what
65:55
you just said if you can translate you
65:59
know the good intentions of a
66:01
conservative to a liberal that means
66:04
let’s say you can understand the
66:07
Liberals worldview better than if you
66:10
couldn’t do that given that you can
66:13
answer that you can understand the
66:14
Liberals worldview enough to translate
66:16
the conservative let’s say preferred
66:19
policies into liberal speak right to
66:23
blame for liberal okay here’s why the
66:25
policies don’t actually mean what it
66:28
looks like they mean to you from your
66:29
liberal paradigm but that they actually
66:31
can also come out of a good intention um
66:34
but in a way let’s say applying applied
66:37
differently or filtered differently
66:39
through a different experience the world
66:40
if you can do that they’re necessarily
66:43
that understanding of the liberal can
66:46
enable you to better
66:48
liberal of your anarchist views um yeah
66:52
absolutely yeah I understand yeah one of
66:55
the ways I put that in my training is
66:56
look if you want to sell you know
66:58
product yeah product P to person X you
67:02
better understand person X better than
67:05
you understand product P oh yes yeah
67:09
it’s all about selling it has nothing
67:12
that person not pregnant primarily
67:14
concerned about your product they’re
67:16
concerned about themselves and the
67:17
people they care about and if you come
67:19
to them relating it to how I mean if you
67:22
look in an ad for something it usually
67:24
starts with do you have this problem
67:27
well let me tell you why you’re not able
67:30
to have a conversation with someone with
67:31
an ad but you can try to relate to them
67:34
in that you know 15 just 30 seconds that
67:37
you have when I when I do my little plug
67:39
for anchor FM I start by saying are you
67:40
looking to do a podcast let me tell you
67:42
knowing what it’s like to have to deal
67:45
with podcasting let me tell you why I
67:46
think anchor FM is a good idea for a
67:48
podcast this is technically not a second
67:50
plug but you know I’ll get paid I will
67:54
accept the money from anchor FM if they
67:56
decide it’s the second plug but it’s not
67:57
but you know relating to you need you
67:59
have this issue or problem or need this
68:02
solution won’t here’s something that can
68:03
help with that and that’s sort of what
68:05
you’re saying applying it to the
68:07
politics now let me ask you this by the
68:09
way what I was saying earlier about
68:10
reflecting back the feeling of injustice
68:13
that is doing this in politics that
68:16
thing you’ve just said they’re
68:18
reflecting back the injustice that the
68:19
felt injustice is the letting someone
68:23
know that you did you feel their pain
68:25
that you get their problem the thing
68:27
they need to solve and if you
68:29
successfully do that and they go I
68:31
identify with this person there’s that
68:32
word again
68:33
identification again yeah okay then
68:35
whatever solution you give them in the
68:38
next paragraph is the one they’re gonna
68:40
be most likely to believe yeah
68:42
it’s why Donald Trump it’s why a
68:44
billionaire who in no way relates to the
68:46
average person and not just because he’s
68:48
a billionaire there’s a myriad of
68:50
reasons why he is nothing like pretty
68:52
much anyone else but he started his
68:55
campaign by saying I know you’re worried
68:58
about XY and Z and
69:02
I’m gonna do something about it and
69:04
putting aside what you think about I
69:06
mean again I’m not a fan and most people
69:09
watching this are not a fan or our fans
69:11
to various degrees or they may like that
69:13
he owns the left but they don’t really
69:15
like what he does
69:17
other than owning the left the man
69:19
related to people to blue-collar workers
69:23
this is a guy that outsources and hires
69:25
immigrants but he was still he still
69:28
went to people and said look you’re
69:30
worried about this no one else is
69:32
talking about it in any real way and I’m
69:34
gonna do something about it this is an
69:36
important principle of political
69:38
persuasion of scoring a political open
69:40
goal and I have said it in these terms
69:42
to the lp time and time again and this
69:45
is what Nigel Faraj does if you want to
69:47
actually create a massive insurgency in
69:51
a short period at a ballot box that the
69:54
injustice that you reflect back to
69:56
someone has to simultaneously be an
69:59
injustice that all of the mainstream
70:02
political options are seen as being as
70:04
making worse yep right all of the
70:07
mainstream options for brexit are not
70:10
solving the problem they’re making it
70:12
worse they’re frustrating brexit so
70:13
that’s a political open golf the donald
70:15
trump example is a really good one on
70:17
they use this example to you remember I
70:19
don’t know if we maybe we mentioned this
70:21
fight
70:22
you can stop me if I mentioned this in
70:24
the show last show we did number 19 um
70:27
but that time when Donald Trump said
70:32
about the Mexicans not sending their
70:34
good men they’re sending the rapists etc
70:36
etc and remember yeah we may have talked
70:40
about yeah I’m not sure I don’t think
70:41
about it now okay remember like that
70:44
week all of the meet like immediately
70:46
all of the media went oh it’s over now
70:48
it’s over now yes and that we he was top
70:53
with a Republican path right yeah so let
70:55
me decode that for you right what people
70:59
heard why when he said they’re not
71:00
saying the best man immigration we’ve
71:02
gotta stop this
71:03
it isn’t fair that people who break
71:06
rules get stuff that people like you who
71:10
don’t break rules don’t get yeah that is
71:12
what all the blue-collar people who were
71:14
like I don’t know about the sim
71:15
raishin thing maybe it’s complicated but
71:17
I know this thing’s did not fare right
71:19
yep that was what they heard and that is
71:22
what he meant and and you can argue
71:24
about the the actual cause he’s Donald
71:27
Trump and he says all kinds of rubbish
71:29
right right specifics of how many
71:32
rapists and are they sending rapists in
71:33
the mall max oh boy yeah you can argue
71:35
at all yeah get a course of course and
71:37
the fact was like you could go back
71:39
check check it out what the media said
71:42
that week and what happened to the polls
71:43
because he went to double file and now
71:45
he’s in a White House and in and the
71:48
point being that immigration more than
71:50
any other topic is one that everybody
71:53
knows both parties consistently have not
71:57
solved have got in the way of solving
71:59
have been saying one thing and not
72:01
delivering right so and it’s like it’s
72:05
like it’s like you can take it out of a
72:07
textbook
72:08
like no III but but I’m just waiting for
72:11
real liberty folks in America to just do
72:14
some of this I I just you know I’m ready
72:17
to help but you know I it’s it’s tough
72:21
for the reason that I’m you know and I’m
72:24
a guilty of this as well we are in
72:26
ideology driven group and many of us I’m
72:30
not one of them but many people within
72:32
libertarianism like the fact that it is
72:36
fringe whether they consciously know
72:38
that or not they may be have always been
72:40
on the outside this is a group of
72:42
outsiders and they sort of looking at
72:48
how Larry sharp Larry sharp called
72:49
himself an anarchist he’s been on my
72:51
show and he said I’m an anarchist at
72:53
heart I live in New York were nowhere
72:55
near Anarchy we have to take steps
72:58
people were less upset about that than
73:01
they were about the fact that he was
73:03
like a cool relatable guy now some of
73:06
them yes were very upset on ideological
73:08
grounds you’re talking about giving
73:10
twenty thousand uh you know twenty
73:13
thousand dollars per student or whatever
73:15
how was that libertarianism and and he
73:17
explained that you know because the
73:18
alternative is spending several times
73:20
more for garbage and you know I’m
73:23
presenting a you know something to to I
73:25
guess you know yellow pill people in the
73:27
libertarianism but a lot of people they
73:29
just
73:29
like that he was like more like a
73:33
standard-issue politician or a
73:35
standard-issue person that was relatable
73:37
and wasn’t you know politics first and
73:39
was actually trying to build
73:40
relationships and things like that and
73:42
and so there was this sort of aversion
73:44
to UM like popularity and and so you’re
73:49
fighting that to some extent – yeah I
73:52
mean you know and that’s fine – I mean
73:53
it’s not it’s not an either/or
73:55
proposition right no of course you can
73:58
have both you can have a mamuni but
74:00
fight we know it’s fine to be – wanna be
74:03
French to be in it for lots of personal
74:04
reasons and this goes to my reasons and
74:07
personality and this goes to my earlier
74:09
point that we don’t we think the reasons
74:12
we believe things are the reasons we
74:14
give for just to justify them in an
74:16
argument but that’s not the reason we
74:17
actually came to the conclusion the
74:19
reasons we a conclusion are include many
74:22
um kind of subconscious things many
74:25
things to do with personality to do with
74:27
you know trust yeah well our biography
74:29
you know the experiences we’ve had and
74:30
the people we’ve met and what people
74:32
said when and all these yeah there are
74:33
other factors that operate on a
74:35
different level
74:35
um so you know that’s all that’s all
74:40
there but yeah I mean some of the people
74:42
who get upset and when others don’t do
74:45
it their way I mean part of that can be
74:49
that well if we all behave like that
74:52
then not only are we not fringe we’re
74:55
not separate and we’re not superior it’s
74:57
almost like we’re coming down to the
74:59
level we’re giving you much I respect
75:01
too much probability but you know in any
75:03
movement you’re gonna have all excuse me
75:06
all kinds of these folks but the point
75:09
is that who’s you know who’s running the
75:12
ship right that the point is that are
75:14
the people who don’t want to actually be
75:18
effective you have let’s say a personal
75:20
interest in the group with which they
75:22
identify not being effective are they
75:24
dominating or are they part of the
75:27
bigger picture and there are they
75:28
restraining the vehicle or just any you
75:31
know a part of the vehicle um so yeah I
75:35
mean you know and the fact is that I
75:38
mean again stating a principle
75:40
unequivocally isn’t the same as acting
75:42
on principle those do
75:43
different I’m stating at clear
75:47
commitment to a an end destination you
75:53
know the ideal world and a clear
75:55
commitment to it is not the same as
75:58
believing that necessarily the only way
76:01
to get to it is in one step right
76:03
they’re completely different things they
76:05
don’t follow from each other I mean and
76:07
in fact you know the last thing I said
76:09
it’s obviously painting me false and you
76:11
can show that it’s false not just
76:12
historically you can show logically that
76:14
it’s false um and actually I wrote a I
76:17
wrote an article it’s one of the most
76:19
academic things I’ve ever written doing
76:21
just that called prints a purism isn’t
76:24
principled in an impure world and it’s
76:28
one of the most careful things I’ve ever
76:31
written not the title as much as the
76:36
actual thing yeah
76:38
so no exactly and that’s the thing it’s
76:40
it’s and again I’m an anarchist like
76:44
hardcore I mean there are a lot of
76:46
people who call themselves anarchists
76:47
and then you scratch the surface and
76:48
there’s still some so I’ve literally
76:50
just don’t want any government and then
76:53
I want once we don’t have a state I want
76:55
to sit and examine a lot of the
76:57
hierarchies that we have and and ask are
77:00
these hierarchies we actually want or
77:01
are they hierarchies that are born of
77:03
the state so I mean I really want to
77:04
examine break down a lot of stuff even
77:06
post state wood that said I understand
77:09
that the person living on this side of
77:13
me in the house over here will explain
77:16
to you why we need I probably shouldn’t
77:20
do that because I don’t want people let
77:22
them figure out which neighbor I’m
77:23
talking neighbors I don’t know which one
77:26
you don’t know which wall this is but a
77:28
neighbor in my neighborhood will explain
77:30
to you why you know separating children
77:33
from their you know families at the
77:35
border is absolutely necessary and then
77:37
and then you’ll have someone else
77:39
explain why like it should be illegal
77:41
you know that I should be paying all of
77:44
my workers at least $15 an hour and you
77:47
know and and and then someone else why
77:49
you know why they think health care is a
77:52
right and then someone else you know why
77:54
and these you know it’s not these aren’t
77:55
stupid people’s and I
77:57
affluent neighborhood you know but but
78:00
we’re so outside of what even a moderate
78:04
libertarian or even a Ron Paul is it
78:07
would be talking about or even a Larry
78:08
sharp that’s so far outside of what what
78:11
people are even thinking that you
78:13
definitely have to even just try to
78:15
relate to them now let me you you
78:18
mentioned abortion and before I let you
78:20
go I want to I want to kind of end on
78:22
talking about really how this applies
78:26
when the rubber hits the road
78:28
um so abortion is a perfect example of a
78:31
of a true wedge issue a true like there
78:35
is very little common ground you very
78:38
few people talk about you know being
78:41
moderate and abortion even though the
78:43
reality is most people are probably
78:44
moderate and abortion they just aren’t
78:46
allowed to signal that you’ve got one
78:49
side that says that the so we’ll start
78:52
with the the pro-choice crowd and I’ll
78:54
use the terms that they use the
78:56
pro-choice crowd that says you know that
78:59
uh you know this is my BA or a woman’s
79:04
body and it’s her choice and the people
79:09
that are I don’t wanna you know
79:11
criminalize abortion at any level I’m
79:13
going with the most extreme
79:14
interpretation that the people don’t
79:16
want to criminalize abortion even up
79:17
until birth what they’re really saying
79:19
is they want to control my body they
79:20
think I’m the property of the their
79:22
property and the property of the
79:23
government and you know this is a
79:25
throwback to you know you know the white
79:29
male patriarchy that says that
79:30
everything belongs to me and I can tell
79:32
everyone what to do so that’s one
79:34
extreme then the other extreme is the
79:36
the the the pro-life side that says that
79:40
even saying that it’s okay to do sex
79:45
selective you know where they’re
79:47
selecting from embryos which one that
79:49
they want so not even just abortion at
79:51
any in the earliest stage but
79:54
pre-implementation implantation I don’t
79:58
know
79:58
the term yeah your pre-implantation and
80:01
anything in which a conceived embryo
80:04
zygote whatever is being terminated is
80:06
an assault on human life and dignity and
80:10
it’s a throw
80:11
back to its mortar yeah it’s it’s it’s
80:14
murder and it’s a throwback to any other
80:16
to any other genocide or or attempt to
80:19
um you know dehumanize a human and and
80:23
both sides have valid arguments to make
80:27
and ultimately what they’re arguing over
80:28
is win personhood begins but they’re too
80:31
busy throwing hyperbole at each other
80:34
and screeching at the other about how
80:36
they want horrible things for all of
80:39
humanity to ever actually get into the
80:43
discussion which is when does personhood
80:45
begin because that’s truly we if we
80:48
really pull back that argument is if
80:51
this if X is where personhood begins
80:53
then X – anything anything prior to X is
80:58
it’s a woman’s body she can do whatever
81:00
she wants with it and anything after X
81:03
is this is no longer just a woman’s body
81:05
there’s now a hue another human being
81:07
involved in we have to consider that
81:08
human being and any rights that we think
81:10
that woman has the human being also has
81:11
that is the actual discussion to be had
81:14
I consider myself pro se the extent go
81:17
ahead it’s actually more because there’s
81:19
a paradox um the name of which I forget
81:23
um but I used it in an article where I
81:25
actually I actually discussed this very
81:28
thing which is this um when do you have
81:33
a pile of sand right one grain is that a
81:37
pile no ten grains no okay a million
81:40
grains yes okay so it’s the dust you
81:43
have a pile at 500,000 right is that the
81:47
number are we really saying that 499,000
81:49
isn’t and then no that doesn’t make
81:52
sense so in that case there can be no
81:54
piles right because you can’t draw the
81:56
line or clearly that isn’t the case so
81:59
again there’s a met there’s a more
82:01
philosophical problem here where the
82:04
idea is there’s assumption going here
82:08
that you can’t have two things unless
82:11
you can find you can define a boundary
82:13
between them that itself is questionable
82:15
and so I’m just raising that yeah yeah
82:20
by by the way um please I’m so glad we
82:24
have
82:24
discussion because we are one of the
82:26
best articles I wrote last year was
82:28
called the mistake you make in every
82:31
political argument yeah and I did the
82:34
abortion one as a very kind of detailed
82:38
case study I mean I can go on but yeah
82:43
ya know and it’s it’s it is not and and
82:49
the problem is it not only is a
82:51
flashpoint and it and it has a lot of
82:54
logical fallacies built into it we’re
82:56
talking about human beings and when we
82:58
start to live it varies another one is
83:00
age of consent so almost all of us agree
83:04
that it’s not right for a 50 year old to
83:07
have sex with a three-year-old I think
83:09
you’re not you’re gonna find maybe less
83:11
than a tenth of a percent of people that
83:13
think that that’s acceptable in any way
83:16
almost everyone agrees that it is
83:19
perfectly fine for a 18 year old to have
83:23
sex with a seventeen and a half year old
83:25
right like I mean almost like again
83:28
you’ll find some people are like no
83:29
unless it’s the exact age of kick butt
83:31
but almost everyone in a consensual act
83:34
and and some may say well they have to
83:36
be married okay fine then they have to
83:37
be married but but the actual ages so
83:39
long as whatever other precepts you have
83:41
about when sex is acceptable have been
83:42
met 18 and 17 and a half are okay most
83:47
of us agree that it’s wrong for a 25
83:50
year old
83:51
dabbe sex with a 12 year old okay most
83:55
of us agree you’re now gonna have a
83:56
slightly larger number of people that go
83:58
well you know if this but but most of us
84:01
agree including me that that it’s okay
84:03
most of us agree it’s okay for a 19 year
84:06
old to have sex with a 17 year old most
84:11
of us probably disagree that it’s okay
84:15
for a 20 year old to have sex with a 15
84:18
year old and you can go where is that
84:24
line both in terms of the of the older
84:26
person and the younger person and and if
84:29
you even try to broach this subject
84:32
people amia are like wait a second
84:35
especially if they have kids they’re
84:36
like kids of any age even if they’re
84:38
adults at this point yes you have this
84:40
conversation with a parent man they
84:45
immediately wait a second are you about
84:47
to defend pedophilia and it’s like no
84:48
I’m asking you and that’s why I started
84:51
just asking I would say well when do you
84:53
think it is what are you trying to say
84:54
I’m not trying to say anything when do
84:55
you think it is because I honestly don’t
84:57
even know and I would say that I don’t
84:58
know I know that I have no interest in
85:01
teenagers to begin with so I certainly
85:03
this is not a you know yeah yeah yeah
85:07
this is truly alike yeah this is what
85:09
it’s academic and it’s an important one
85:11
too but this is not me trying to like
85:12
mess with your teenager like it’s zero
85:16
interest at all I’m not even at this
85:17
point you really have to impress me even
85:19
in your mid-20s before I’ve just not
85:22
this is not I’m an I’m kidding I’m
85:25
almost 40 I’m not one of these like
85:27
looking for a young blonde first of all
85:29
I’m married but even if I wasn’t so this
85:31
is it’s not me it’s not me but it’s a
85:33
it’s a serious discussion to be had but
85:35
if you try to have it people were like
85:37
whoa whoa are you about to especially if
85:39
you tell him you’re a libertarian
85:40
they’re like wait a second I’ve heard
85:41
about the hold wait what if the child
85:43
can sense things what what are you about
85:44
to do and abortion is a similar thing
85:46
where you’re talking about something
85:48
that is an incredibly nuanced thing to
85:50
talk about and yet people are because
85:53
it’s such a visceral thing people have
85:56
drawn their lines in the sand how do you
85:58
apply what we call the Chris Reynolds
86:00
attorney-at-law principle h22 this you
86:04
know to this thing how would you apply
86:06
that let’s say your and I don’t know
86:09
what you let’s say that you’re a very
86:12
you know extreme pro-choice ER and I’m a
86:16
very extreme pro-lifer um how do you
86:20
approach that discussion with me using
86:22
silence I told you about the article
86:24
that I read called a mistake you make in
86:27
every political argument right the
86:29
follow-up article to that was called how
86:33
facts get chosen and Minds get changed
86:35
and the I could give you a long answer
86:41
to what you said and in fact a long
86:42
answer is in that second article
86:45
precisely the long answer is in that
86:47
second article but know where the
86:49
general point in answer question is
86:52
at um we have visible we’ve used the
86:58
word vest for a few times on the show
86:59
I’m viscerally felt moral intuitions and
87:04
what you need to do is if you’re having
87:08
an argument about age of consent of
87:09
abortion or whatever is to actually get
87:12
directly down to the driving moral
87:14
intuition of the person that you’re
87:18
arguing with you’ve got to be able to
87:22
find it and feel it and then you could
87:25
you can acknowledge it um most of the
87:29
time when it comes to these kind of
87:31
issues most people aren’t aware they
87:35
couldn’t articulate themselves the
87:37
actual the feeling the viscerally felt
87:40
moral intuition that they experience
87:43
essentially as an argument right so
87:47
you’re saying they’re saying they you’re
87:50
saying they can’t you’re saying they
87:51
can’t articulate that most I’m not even
87:54
aware let alone able to articulate the
87:56
viscerally felt moral intuition that
87:59
determines which facts about the world
88:01
they believe right now ii know i was
88:06
saying no they can’t they definitely not
88:08
deployed on it like you said they don’t
88:09
even know much less articulate it’s
88:11
coming from a very very innate part of
88:13
them yeah so when you’re dealing with
88:15
this which is kind of like the hardest
88:16
application of things yes yes why you
88:19
went to it again right exactly you need
88:21
you need to actually find the intuition
88:25
that the person you’re speaking to may
88:27
not have found themselves now you can do
88:30
this because even if you are a pro
88:34
choice person let’s say you can knowing
88:39
what the pro-life position is it’s
88:41
murder you can you can think yourself
88:46
into you could you can imagine even
88:50
imagine the situation which you don’t
88:52
think applies in the abortion case but
88:54
your interlocutor does where you’re
88:56
horrified by murder you can imagine a
88:58
murder right yes you can you can imagine
89:01
what it would be like if you really
89:03
believe that this zygote
89:06
sells was a human being my god you’d
89:09
feel the same way you know it millions
89:11
of them being killed every single year
89:13
then yes you wouldn’t think that the
89:17
pro-life person is evil for interfering
89:19
with your body you think the pro-life
89:22
person is morally derelict for not
89:24
actually burning down every abortion
89:27
clinic yes every murder
89:29
it’s like how is it if you believe that
89:31
you’re not out there how can you even
89:33
live with all the mass murder going on
89:34
crowd yes you can when you understand
89:37
that this stuff is this kind of stuff is
89:40
driven by viscerally felt moral
89:43
intuition that really doesn’t get words
89:45
except when you’re putting the words on
89:48
the facts that you believe about the
89:50
world and your intuitions causes you to
89:52
choose facts right in other words this
89:55
zygote is a human being this I go is
89:57
just a collection of cells that
89:59
obviously isn’t a human being he doesn’t
90:01
have any of the characteristics of human
90:02
being both of those two positions are
90:04
reasonable within the respective
90:07
paradigms and you can find ways to feel
90:12
to access the intuition and when it
90:14
comes things like this you that’s what
90:15
you have to do and and I actually give
90:18
concrete examples of of how you might do
90:24
that now in the article now here’s well
90:26
here’s an interesting one I’m not saying
90:28
this is the best it’s just the first one
90:30
that comes to my mind right okay I’m
90:32
imagine so I used to be very religious I
90:35
am no longer but I know a bit about the
90:39
Bible and the liturgy and that kind of
90:42
thing
90:42
and so it was it was interesting to me
90:45
that that many of the let’s say pure
90:53
pro-life people in the United States
90:54
have a religious basis for that view oh
90:57
yeah and so a lot of them are they would
91:00
self-identify let’s just say Christian
91:01
hmm um now so I get it right I
91:05
completely understand that um well they
91:08
believe that they believe God knit them
91:10
in the womb good Christians and Jews
91:12
from our book you know friend up from
91:15
the from the actual book and to a lesser
91:17
extent Muslims they’re actually Muslims
91:19
are actually more nuanced
91:19
on this issue believe it or not but but
91:21
Christians and Jews in particular
91:23
believe that God knit them in the womb
91:26
at the very moment of conception that
91:28
they were fearfully made in that moment
91:29
well if that’s the case you will kill
91:32
that well here’s the thing
91:34
yes maybe but there were Bible verses to
91:36
the contrary and interestingly I mean
91:39
again I’m just gonna pull this out as an
91:40
interesting yeah yeah
91:42
but the liturgy the original liturgy
91:45
like the language ethnicity
91:47
um they it says we believe he will come
91:50
again to judge the quick and the dead
91:52
quicken the dead were awakened the dead
91:54
not the conceived in the dead not even
91:57
the living in the dead which is the
91:58
modern bastardization but the quick and
92:01
the dead and the quick has a very
92:03
specific meaning right look the
92:06
quickening is when the woman first feels
92:08
the presence of the baby again in the
92:11
womb now I’m not saying therefore right
92:15
pro-choice right but what I am saying
92:18
what I what you can do with by getting
92:20
into the paradigm within which those
92:24
intuitions live right of your opponents
92:28
if you say something like that you could
92:30
you don’t say hey look I gotcha
92:32
you suck it what this is interesting
92:33
what does this mean yeah exactly
92:38
consider now there’s many things you can
92:41
do like that on both sides I’m and I
92:43
outlined many in that in that second
92:46
article and and the article by the way
92:49
you know how fast it shows the mind gets
92:51
changed it’s about the general point of
92:53
our moral universes determine or
92:58
correlate with our moral intuitions that
93:01
drive our political views via
93:03
determining the facts that we believe
93:05
about the world not the values we have
93:07
about them now crazy when we’re having
93:10
the abortion argument somebody saying
93:12
you’re a murderer right and something
93:15
saying you’re trying to control my body
93:17
but here’s the thing if you actually
93:18
take it out the abortion argument and
93:20
you just say to both sides of that are
93:23
you okay with murder
93:24
they both say no if yeah are you okay
93:27
with imposing on your inside the bodies
93:30
of other people they both say no right
93:32
now so yeah
93:33
it’s not the values that have the
93:34
disagreement even though it feels like a
93:36
disagreement of values when we’re having
93:38
the abortion discussion it’s actually
93:40
add to your earlier point a disagreement
93:42
about facts in this case what is a human
93:45
being what is a person but then said the
93:48
critical question becomes how are the
93:51
facts determined well they’re determined
93:53
by viscerally felt moral intuitions so
93:55
you have to go to those and that’s
93:58
that’s the deep part of this but now
94:01
that but facts don’t facts don’t care
94:03
about your feelings facts are rooted in
94:06
your feelings not always one plus one is
94:09
two regardless of how you feel about it
94:11
yes um you know and there’s something
94:14
called the human the human divide the
94:19
human something like that which is that
94:23
you can’t you can’t get to an ottoman is
94:26
right you can’t what Furman is this
94:30
isn’t an important thing in philosophy
94:32
moral philosophy right that that
94:35
whatever you believe about the the
94:38
material world can never determine your
94:42
moral values so said human a lot of
94:44
things you know paper has been you know
94:46
written on about this um how Holmes law
94:50
humans when it come when it no what no
94:53
it’s got another name um but but yes
94:55
whatever um but the fact is
94:59
neurologically we’re actually wired
95:01
right so I want you there’s a physical
95:03
basis not only from deriving an ottoman
95:07
is but we actually in another way derive
95:10
is from the ort in a way and um you’ve
95:16
got to understand that and so I as I say
95:18
I’ve mentioned that article of ten times
95:20
now but it’s all in there it’s all in
95:24
yeah and if you shoot that over to me
95:26
we’ll put it in the notes and of course
95:27
you know if you go to Robyn Curnow calm
95:29
you can you can see yeah all of this
95:31
stuff but but yeah I mean it’s it’s this
95:34
is a perfect example of the problem with
95:37
talking religion politics even sports
95:39
like really talking like stuff with
95:42
people especially people that aren’t
95:44
into talking about this stuff is that
95:47
they’re very quickly gonna the less and
95:50
and it’s it’s it’s it’s worth the less
95:53
they have actually spent the time
95:55
fleshing it out the more likely they are
95:59
to immediately fall back on that on that
96:01
intuition of this is right you’re wrong
96:04
and not just you’re wrong you’re
96:06
attacking me like you are actually
96:08
attacking what I believe and you’re and
96:11
not just what I believe but for example
96:13
an abortion you’re attacking the babies
96:14
or you’re attacking the women you know
96:17
yeah you’re a merc you’re either you’re
96:20
a murderer in both cases more more and
96:23
more I’m seeing in the in the pro-choice
96:24
crowd they’re saying well you’re a
96:26
murderer if you’re pro-life because
96:27
they’re still gonna try to get abortions
96:29
and and now they’re gonna die and women
96:31
are gonna die as a result of you’re
96:33
pro-life you’re you’re anti-choice
96:35
activism is going to result in women
96:37
dying therefore you’re a murderer and
96:39
you know in the immigration debate any
96:41
of these debates and I struggle not to
96:43
do it because I’m an anarchist I think
96:45
the whole thing’s murder like I I you
96:47
know Taxation stuff the government’s an
96:48
imposition on our life it’s hard for me
96:51
not to tell my dad or you know my you
96:54
know whoever you know someone I love and
96:56
care about and I know doesn’t want to be
96:57
that like what you’re advocating is kind
97:00
of murder II and and but but how do you
97:03
do that without basically telling the
97:05
person I think you’re a terrible person
97:07
and you can’t so you have to come at it
97:09
from the the belief that they are coming
97:11
from a good place and then go from there
97:13
yeah you know let’s just be clear some
97:16
thought there are terrible people right
97:17
I mean I know yeah even you know
97:20
relativist or anything but you what you
97:22
can do is you can you know another of
97:25
hugely important principle in sales let
97:28
alone political persuasion is to meet
97:30
the objection upfront and if I know that
97:33
when I share with you my view you’re
97:35
gonna hear that I think you’re a
97:37
murderer what I can do is I can preempt
97:39
that and I can say look I know how this
97:41
got a sense to you but um let me let me
97:43
just explain why it feels this way to me
97:45
I completely get that other people might
97:47
feel just as strongly until the same
97:48
things about me like you can pack it up
97:51
you can write you can open the fact that
97:53
you know this is gonna sound a bit
97:55
strange that they’re actually
97:59
thinking that somebody’s a murderer for
98:01
their points of view is a lot more
98:04
sensible and a lot more common than then
98:08
people expect and therefore we shouldn’t
98:12
get all we shouldn’t actually think it’s
98:15
such a big deal like being a mutt like
98:17
doing here no yeah yeah he’s actually
98:20
less of a big deal as long as you’re not
98:21
wielding the knife I’m not saying it’s
98:23
not a big deal
98:24
but you see what I mean I mean because
98:26
precisely because it does go this way if
98:29
you stand on principle about anything
98:31
you do quickly get to that point the
98:34
logical the logical conclusion is that
98:36
someone who disagrees with me a lot is
98:39
going to cause people to die and
98:41
therefore so even if I don’t think
98:43
they’re a murderer or a quote unquote I
98:45
think that what they’re advocating for
98:47
is going to result in people dying and
98:49
that that’s let’s be clear in a manner
98:52
of speaking
98:53
you know I mean I was obviously I was
98:56
passionate against a bunch of the
98:59
American wars right second world war and
99:01
and so on and so on um there were people
99:04
voting to kill babies in Baghdad I mean
99:08
that’s true
99:09
so from where I sit ok well then good
99:12
but you know what we’re all doing things
99:14
that contribute to murder all the time
99:16
right once you go down there yeah I will
99:19
hold on I’m paying my tax yeah alright
99:21
because I don’t want to be put in jail
99:23
cuz I be put in jail a little
99:24
contributing to murder then actually
99:26
spend the life right so we’re all doing
99:28
it so so the fact that you can level an
99:30
accusation that’s that terrible against
99:32
someone doesn’t make him any different
99:33
from you it’s only a matter of degree
99:36
it’s a matter of quantity not quality
99:38
yeah and and we just and the humility is
99:41
that’s really the humility that’s so
99:44
important I mean with libertarians you
99:46
know we talked about some of the the
99:49
traits that some libertarians have that
99:53
maybe frustrated me when you call it
99:55
when you call me autistic you know a lot
100:01
of people will go through an anarchist I
100:03
mean I do this all the time I’m at these
100:05
events all the time right well I’ll talk
100:06
to my Anika’s friends and they’ll you
100:09
know they’re anything that is anything
100:11
that you add okay
100:13
there isn’t their idea of pure anity
100:15
anarchist utopia is essentially well
100:18
something you know someone even say
100:19
murder or whatever but yeah whatever it
100:21
is um you bootlicker thank God but they
100:24
drove there on a public road so I’m
100:27
right okay so what we doing we’re just
100:29
talking right you know and it’s at the
100:31
end of the day being principled this how
100:34
many many of your to what extent are you
100:37
actually prepared to take the pain of
100:38
acting on your principles rather than
100:40
compromising and and we’re all you know
100:43
I think it’s very hard I don’t know that
100:45
you can divide the world up into two
100:47
camps of principle and not principle
100:49
based on you know grandstanding on
100:51
statements about anything I just you
100:54
know show me yeah I think there are
100:57
definitely people that are truly not
100:59
principled and I think like a lot of
101:00
politicians that are just pure cynics
101:02
they are just in it for themselves too
101:05
and and and and there are a lot of
101:06
people that are like that I think
101:07
overall most people have some principle
101:09
to speak to your part about public roads
101:11
just to clarify for people who may think
101:13
that you’re doing the roads fallacy that
101:16
oh you can’t be an anarchist if you use
101:18
public roads that’s not what he’s saying
101:19
because I I immediately know where a lot
101:22
of people are gonna go with that
101:23
that’s not what he’s saying what he’s
101:26
saying is that you’re using public roads
101:29
is because you don’t have another viable
101:30
option to get to that thing you have to
101:33
use a public road unless you want to
101:34
walk on the to shoulder the lamian then
101:37
you’re really you’re still using a
101:38
public road there’s really not a way
101:39
other than trespassing over many
101:40
people’s properties thousands of people
101:42
Robin he’s what you could do is you
101:45
could try and find private means to find
101:48
out all of the landowners between where
101:49
you are in the libertarian convention
101:50
you could call them all up and get
101:52
permission right and you completely
101:54
treat your principles let’s climb over
101:56
their fences right trip mate it what
101:59
kind of makes my point even more
102:00
strongly right to some degree you have
102:04
sacrificed your most pure version of
102:07
your principle for the kids sake of
102:10
convenience which I use I have in my
102:13
wallet
102:14
I have Federal Reserve notes my god I
102:17
mean even Menorca even uh even a lot of
102:20
conservatives are against the Federal
102:22
Reserve and yet I’m not like openly
102:25
trading Bitcoin ever
102:26
I have some Bitcoin but I’m not I’m not
102:28
you know yeah you know I’m not
102:31
exchanging Bitcoin yet because it’s not
102:34
right now viable so too we all decided
102:37
the point he was making is we all to
102:39
some degree have have made an acceptable
102:42
compromise to us where maybe your kids
102:45
in the public school whatever that I am
102:48
doing this even though it goes against
102:50
my principle and even though I advocate
102:52
against it and for a better option
102:54
because at least for now I don’t have a
102:56
good option and so if someone takes that
102:59
a little bit further and says well I’m
103:02
participating in in Larry sharp I am
103:05
coming up with a program where we’re
103:07
gonna give every kid at sixteen and
103:09
twenty thousand dollars that they can do
103:10
whatever they want education wise or use
103:12
it to start a career or whatever no it
103:14
doesn’t meet my my my principles of how
103:17
things should be but it is what I
103:20
believe to be the best compromise in
103:22
face of reality like you said an
103:24
unprincipled world the reality of what
103:27
we have now this is so much better than
103:29
that and I don’t even necessarily agree
103:31
with that plan but I get why he’s doing
103:33
it I’m not gonna call him a bootlicker
103:34
for not even further you you know if
103:38
you’re gonna argue like he could also
103:40
make the case and this case often is a
103:43
good one to make is often true that by
103:45
making what looks on the surface like
103:47
something of a compromise you actually
103:49
create a situation in which getting to
103:52
the the agreed on final goal like the
103:55
uncommon rising gold is actually easier
103:57
so it’s not that you compromise their
103:59
because it’s just a step in the right
104:00
direction
104:01
and then you stop in a better place but
104:03
that it is actually a step toward where
104:05
you will want to go so the only argument
104:07
is are you getting there in one step or
104:09
ten and or is that one of the ten steps
104:13
that would get you there or not
104:14
relative questions and this is why in my
104:17
work and and and and reasonable people
104:20
and crowd principal people can disagree
104:22
in each case on the difference between
104:25
the two but in my work I say look you’ve
104:28
got to understand the fuck the
104:29
fundamental difference ironically the
104:31
difference in principle between a
104:34
principled compromise and a compromise
104:36
of principle you never do the second but
104:40
people
104:40
can disagree about what the first looks
104:42
like and if you want to actually hat be
104:45
principled which means have changed the
104:47
world such that your principles are
104:49
instantiated you have to discuss the
104:52
first you have to do you you you you
104:55
have to you have to yeah yeah you have
104:58
to and you have to acknowledge that none
105:03
of us is living purely to principle
105:05
because if we were for example as an
105:07
anarchist that Street right there is a
105:12
public road and in order for me to order
105:18
something using Amazon I have to
105:20
participate in taxation through the
105:23
sales tax I have to participate in the
105:25
Federal Reserve by exchanging Federal
105:26
Reserve notes for for you know that
105:29
purchase I have to walk across a public
105:32
street and I have to open a mailbox or
105:35
or or or open my door yeah I think yeah
105:40
yeah bootlicker bootlicker and and
105:42
listen get commie listen and voting
105:45
Bernie I you yeah and but this is the
105:50
real like or it’s like so and this is
105:54
why a lot of people that are true
105:55
hardcore anarchists they become like
105:57
more and people in general that because
105:59
the more principled they become or the
106:01
more they would call themselves
106:02
principled they become the more in
106:04
introvert they are so disgusted by the
106:08
and this happens with a lot of hardcore
106:09
Christians and people other religions
106:11
they interfere introvert introvert they
106:13
get in more and more internal because
106:15
they’re so sickened by the world and the
106:16
thought of compromising to even talk
106:18
with one of those scumbags and these are
106:20
people that often end up killing people
106:21
because the only way they can interact
106:24
with the world is to destroy that you
106:26
know as much evil as I can before they
106:28
take me out you’ve done nothing you’ve
106:30
accomplished nothing other than
106:31
destroying your life the life of those
106:32
other people who also thought they were
106:34
doing the right thing more than likely
106:35
very few people wake up and go what evil
106:38
can I do today so you’re really like
106:40
just harming people that also thought
106:41
they were doing the right thing you’ve
106:42
accomplished nothing other than making
106:44
whatever you believe look ridiculous and
106:45
and and you haven’t helped anyone if
106:48
you’ve you’ve done harm and so that’s
106:52
why I’ve become very I’m not sure I’d
106:54
call myself a
106:54
pragmatist to the extent that many
106:56
people associate pragmatism I’m still
106:59
agnostic to the question as to whether
107:01
or not electoral politics is even an
107:03
effective way to accomplish change but
107:04
it might be and for those who have idli
107:08
think that it does I’m not gonna give
107:10
you a hard time because a I’m not on two
107:12
percent sure but even if I didn’t agree
107:14
with you I get that you’re trying to do
107:16
something you’re at least as much flak
107:19
ifs people give Libertarian Party
107:20
activists and you know and and and any
107:23
kind of activists in in electoral
107:25
politics you’re trying something you’re
107:27
trying to do something yeah your
107:29
argument such a great point spike I mean
107:32
you know it’s live and let live right I
107:34
mean it is yeah I’m in a fundamentally
107:39
an epistemic reason I’m into Liberty
107:42
it’s because what whatever else is or
107:45
isn’t true I don’t know enough shit to
107:47
know better than you what’s good for you
107:50
exactly the idea that I possibly could
107:53
is is it insane right so I’m an
107:55
epistemic so give them that um I don’t
107:59
see that there’s a way that I personally
108:01
don’t see there’s a way to be a
108:02
consistent libertarian let alone an
108:03
anarchist
108:03
if I’m yo whilst believing that I do
108:08
know better then every brought everybody
108:12
on how to accomplish things in this
108:14
world that has loads of variables you
108:16
know and for themselves and for and for
108:21
themselves as individuals so not just I
108:23
have the best prescription for society
108:25
at large or the world at large I know
108:28
better than Robin Koerner how Robin
108:31
Carter should be living his life on a
108:35
day to day basis I as an anarchist which
108:39
which thought and follow the logic here
108:42
if that’s the case I should be working
108:44
to control Robin because I know better
108:46
than Robin how he should be being Robin
108:49
I know how to Robin better than Robin
108:51
therefore and all of you that are why I
108:53
know how to you better than you why am i
108:56
an anarchist or libertarian I should be
108:58
like a hardcore North Korean communists
109:02
forcing you to at every level to do
109:04
things if I follow the logic of that so
109:06
obviously I don’t know you
109:08
actually um some people will be thinking
109:10
yeah but other people do that too not
109:12
just libertarians in there right
109:13
do everyone does it yeah yeah the reason
109:16
is particularly interesting for
109:17
libertarians though is that there’s an
109:19
internal contradiction in the
109:21
philosophically when when that doesn’t
109:23
kind of exist for non libertarians and I
109:27
actually wrote about this years ago when
109:28
I wrote an article called something like
109:30
the opposite of tyranny is the author
109:35
though the opposite of Liberty isn’t
109:37
tyranny it’s orthodoxy and by the way
109:41
that’s exactly what George Orwell said
109:43
but I hadn’t realised that when I wrote
109:45
the article the opposite of Liberty is
109:48
orthodoxy are you saying orthodoxy
109:52
applied to how you interact with people
109:55
so but basically I unpacked it in a more
109:58
recent article where I said beware the
110:00
in light it’s called beware the
110:01
enlightened ones and I talked about for
110:03
the scientism versus science right right
110:06
in the sense of um this is the truth I
110:10
know everything I need to know about the
110:13
truth therefore I don’t need to let your
110:17
data or your experiences or any of my
110:20
interactions with the world
110:21
um affect my belief I can discount that
110:25
possibility out of the gate because I’ve
110:27
already arrived now that is called in
110:30
physical sciences that I that approached
110:33
words called scientism and it’s the
110:35
opposite of science and it’s very
110:37
interesting to me as a scientist and a
110:39
philosopher of science that the
110:40
discipline that we have that are
110:41
arguably I would say brings us has
110:44
brought us closest to the truth has made
110:45
the most moves towards the truth in its
110:47
own domain is science is let’s say the
110:50
physical sciences and that is done so by
110:54
having the axiom that everything it
110:57
knows is false of knowing that it
110:59
doesn’t know and looking to find where
111:01
it is wrong where is in politics what
111:04
most people do isn’t the political
111:06
analog of that they do the political
111:08
analog of scientism which is I know I’ve
111:11
already arrived so what I can do is
111:13
ignore all the day two of your
111:15
experience when you tell me that my
111:17
libertarian Anna um utopia is actually
111:19
gonna be really shit for you what I can
111:21
judge
111:22
don’t get it right it’s like I’m
111:23
disengaged anything you tell me at that
111:25
point means that you don’t get I have it
111:27
I have it I have achieved the
111:29
singularity and it’s rien sended
111:31
humanity by knowing all as a God on
111:34
earth is really what people are saying
111:36
and and it’s what we think about our
111:39
beliefs and that’s what’s so crazy about
111:40
it is even in this moment you rob and
111:43
Koerner believe you’re right and as
111:44
humble as you are you believe you’re
111:46
right where else you wouldn’t believe it
111:47
it’s it’s I’m sure there’s a paradox
111:48
named for that too you can be as humble
111:51
as as soul-searching as I am love
111:55
reading stuff I disagree with now I
111:57
covet it and I always look for stuff
111:59
because I was the way I look at it is if
112:02
I argue with you and I say I’m right and
112:04
you go no I’m right and here’s how I can
112:07
prove it and I can look at and go wow
112:08
now I’m right because I’ve you show me
112:11
this thing I’m always I and I love it
112:15
but still in that is that I’m right like
112:18
I’m so right I’m so right that I’m
112:20
always more right right but so that do
112:23
that like so that’s an implied thing but
112:26
you can’t approach everyone like that
112:28
and you can’t approach things like that
112:30
because you’re attacking everyone and
112:32
and it’s I mean that’s what you’re
112:34
saying basically I mean I and it’s it is
112:38
super interesting because like I was a
112:40
physicist we know that our physics is
112:42
wrong quantum mechanics and general
112:43
relativity which describe the world with
112:45
amazing precision are incompatible we
112:48
know that what we believe fundamentally
112:49
is wrong
112:52
but but it’s closer to the truth than
112:56
anything else and it’s so good that we
112:58
can get on planes and not lose our lives
113:00
when they fall out of the sky right it’s
113:02
so so there’s a way of of being
113:06
arbitrarily close to light and acting
113:10
accordingly whilst knowing you’re wrong
113:12
and that is the that is actually the
113:16
reality in which we live and there is a
113:18
basis for humility and yeah it shouldn’t
113:21
be as hard as all of that because
113:23
there’s no other game in town and the
113:25
earth is flat and the earth is flat
113:34
my favorite response to that ever that
113:37
is the most both the most British and my
113:40
most favorite response to that ever is
113:43
yeah quite that’s how that’s how I’m
113:45
gonna respond to that from now on that’s
113:47
perfect so okay
113:49
I love it I absolutely love it so Robin
113:52
before you are an absolute gem of a
113:54
human being I love having you on I
113:56
always love having great conversations
113:58
with you if I could have a Robin minute
114:00
on every show where you just came on and
114:02
blew everyone out I wish I could I wish
114:05
your schedule could afford that um
114:07
before I let you go anything that you
114:09
haven’t had a chance to plug talked
114:11
about any final points you want to make
114:13
anything that you want to talk about I
114:15
give you the floor for as long as you
114:16
want the floors yours Robin Koerner well
114:18
look I I have just redone my rubbing
114:21
Kern a website a couple of months ago
114:23
I’m haven’t really talked about it much
114:25
so go to please go to Robyn Curnow com
114:27
um whether you’re looking for you know a
114:31
speaker candidate or activist training
114:34
work you know in in political
114:36
communication and political persuasion
114:38
psychology etc it’s all there you can
114:42
see the different stuff I do if you’re
114:44
looking for branding for a campaign you
114:48
know I all the kind of stuff I do is
114:50
laid out on Robin Connor calm now and
114:53
also you know you can get a copy of my
114:54
book there if you can keep it with you
114:56
kindly mentioned before or if you don’t
114:58
want any of that but you’re just kind of
115:00
like the stuff I do um
115:01
stick your name in the box the SUBSCRIBE
115:03
box and I’ll add you to my low quantity
115:06
high quality mailing list which I’m not
115:08
spending there enough time on but I’ve
115:10
got to be collecting names right but yet
115:12
more people that are added the more time
115:14
I spend on it yeah that’s that’s true
115:16
I’m also on Twitter so that’s our kernel
115:19
our KOTR any arm is my handle um oh and
115:22
you know what recently I did a few good
115:24
interviews on YouTube which I’m really
115:27
pleased with the first was with Andrew
115:29
yang the second was with a guy called
115:32
John Wood jr. from an organization
115:35
better angels that I mentioned at the
115:37
top of the show mmm related to the
115:39
project H but recently I did the most
115:43
recently I did an interview with Ammon
115:45
Bundy yeah man following up
115:48
it’s about immigration that um I think
115:52
was one of the most phenomenal I thinks
115:55
I’ve I’ve seen him come up you know when
115:57
we got going we got into immigration in
116:01
some detail and he I was that was kind
116:05
of cool so check any of that out what
116:09
else oh and you I’d forgot to uh you’ve
116:11
thrown your hat in the ring
116:13
haven’t you well I don’t know I’ve kind
116:16
of thrown a hat in a ring um you know I
116:21
obviously want to save Liberty in
116:23
America and that’s still my my big stick
116:25
but um if if brexit isn’t done by
116:30
october 31st
116:32
i in a lot of other Brits because I’m
116:34
still a British even though I’m also an
116:36
American will be very angry so I did
116:38
actually today for the first time ever
116:41
in my life have been anything like this
116:42
um I sent an application to the brexit
116:45
Party to stand for Parliament um if
116:49
there is an election in the event
116:51
general election in the event that
116:53
brexit doesn’t happen as promised I’m
116:56
sure they’ve got tens of thousands of
116:57
great candidates who don’t live 5,000
116:59
miles away in Seattle so you know I’m
117:01
not holding my breath
117:02
but yes I I did and that and I would be
117:05
delighted I would be delighted to see an
117:09
America a vehicle as inspiring and
117:13
effective as the brexit party together
117:16
to do thing in in the u.s. mean until
117:20
that time I’m happy to help any Liberty
117:22
candidates in the US I mean anywhere in
117:25
the anglers any anywhere in the
117:27
Anglosphere Robin Kramer is available
117:30
anywhere where English is the primarily
117:32
spoken language Robin is here so Robin
117:36
Koerner calm that has your interviews
117:39
and everything else on it right hasn’t
117:41
got the interviews that’s just our
117:42
YouTube just check you’re still my name
117:44
is YouTube okay I’ll look those up and
117:46
I’ll put those in the show notes yeah
117:48
yeah okay okay someone goes there um but
117:52
yes that would be I’d appreciate that
117:54
well Robin thank thank you thank you
117:56
again for joining us and guys if you’ll
117:58
stick around for the outer I want to
118:00
talk to you a little bit for I let you
118:01
go but guys thank you
118:02
for joining us on my fellow Americans be
118:05
sure to tune in tomorrow on muddy waters
118:08
media Thursday for the writer’s block
118:10
Matt even told me who his guest is I
118:13
literally forgot it as soon as he told
118:15
me but it’s gonna be great
118:16
be sure to check that out tomorrow
118:17
Friday I think we’re having an episode
118:20
of mr. America the bearded truth with
118:23
Jason lion I think his back is OK enough
118:25
for him to be resuming that again for
118:27
his whole what I call his wholesome
118:28
Sabbath episode I’m only I call it that
118:31
no one else calls it that I just do it
118:33
his shabbat shalom episode of of the mr.
118:36
maryk of the bearded truth he’s total
118:38
Gentile have a great weekend and then
118:40
join us again from Monday where I
118:41
believe again we’ll be having the Monday
118:44
the non Shabbat episode of mr. America
118:46
the bearded truth with Jason Lyon join
118:48
us again that Tuesday for the money
118:51
waters of freedom we’re Matt right and I
118:53
parsed through the week’s events with
118:56
the with the the special I don’t have a
119:02
good way to describe just tune in its to
119:05
guys someone who’s also like me and we
119:08
we just kvetch over what happened for
119:10
the week and then tune in again next
119:11
week next Wednesday for my fellow
119:14
Americans well I will be interviewing
119:16
Chloe Val dari and talking about the
119:18
theory of Enchantment their even
119:20
champion so that would be fun so guys
119:22
again thank you to robin Koerner thank
119:24
you all for tuning in and god
119:27
[Music]


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Spike Cohen
Spike Cohen
Local Jew. Contrarian stoic sentimentalist. Antidisestablishmentarianism. Will pet your dog.