(((My Fellow Americans))) #37: As You Wish With Robin Koerner

DISCLOSURE

FULL TRANSCRIPT TEXT

02:37
[music]
02:44
[applause]
02:47
welcome to the show yes yes
02:56
thank you I know it’s great to be back
03:01
thank you keep clapping clap if you
03:07
believe how would we know that you
03:09
believe if you didn’t keep clapping
03:11
welcome to my fellow Americans I am
03:14
literally spike Cohen it is so great to
03:16
join you today Wednesday May 29th the
03:22
year of our Lord 2019 thank you again
03:23
for joining us I’m so happy to be here I
03:26
would have been equally happy to be here
03:28
last week but I wasn’t able to because I
03:30
had like three guests and each one
03:31
wasn’t able to join for a different
03:34
reason and so we ended up not being able
03:36
to do that but glad to have you here we
03:38
as always are a muddied waters media
03:40
production check us out on Facebook
03:42
YouTube Instagram anchor Twitter
03:46
periscope iTunes Google Play where
03:49
everywhere
03:50
check us out everywhere give us five
03:51
star reviews everywhere
03:53
definitely check us out on anchor FM
03:56
more on that later um that is our anchor
03:59
FM / muddy waters um so thank you again
04:03
and be sure to share this video I know
04:07
what you’re thinking
04:07
my Facebook friends list or my YouTube
04:12
followers list or what have you is
04:15
desperately missing out on a roughly one
04:18
hour long libertarian podcast um
04:21
well that doesn’t have to be the reality
04:24
you can share this with them you can
04:27
give them the gift of spike Cohen kids
04:29
love it be sure to share it the intro
04:31
and outro music on this and every
04:33
episode of my fellow Americans is from
04:36
the amazingly talented mr. Joe Davi
04:38
that’s Jo Davi check him out on Facebook
04:41
SoundCloud check him out on Bandcamp
04:43
it’s Joe Davi music VanCamp calm by his
04:46
entire discography when this video is
04:48
over immediately
04:49
or podcasts however you’re listening or
04:51
watching this go to that buy his entire
04:54
discography go ahead and do that you’ll
04:56
be so happy thank you to Kroger for the
04:59
delicious purified drinking water that
05:01
I’m drinking on this episode
05:03
bula vinaka good stuff
05:08
shoutout to Tanner on Turks and mom them
05:09
guys my guest tonight we’ve actually had
05:11
him on before he is a good friend of
05:14
mine I describe him as the he has been
05:17
described by me as the libertarian
05:20
Jonathan PI and I’m hoping that’ll stick
05:24
any day now he is a political trainer
05:27
and consultant he’s regularly featured
05:29
on the foundation for economic education
05:32
his work can also be found on Fox
05:33
Business Network Huffington Post
05:35
independent voter Network and many other
05:37
outlets he is author of the book if you
05:40
can keep it and most recently he had
05:43
developed a program called the weapons
05:45
of mass persuasion he is on he is on
05:49
today to talk about something that he
05:50
has been working on a project he’s been
05:52
working on and I’m just gonna let him
05:54
get started because there’s nothing I
05:56
can do to properly prepare you for him
05:59
so I’m gonna go ahead and bring him on
06:00
ladies and gentlemen welcome to the show
06:03
mr. Robin Koerner Robin thank you so
06:05
much for joining us yes
06:22
it’s a common vernacular it’s common
06:24
vernacular I you know
06:40
oh you’re right it’s not entire it is
06:45
not it to be fair it is not entirely
06:47
Jewish I will give you that but you know
06:51
listen I I have an audience
06:52
I gotta keep my audience happy they like
06:54
the Lord a lot of them some of them not
06:56
all of them no guess I’m being told no
06:59
guests sound oh good yeah okay so yeah I
07:09
know it’s not it’s not you um it’s it’s
07:16
definitely not it’s definitely not you
07:19
ah say something now that’s testing
07:28
testing 1 2 3 again I eyeball I see the
07:30
bars so that’s good you like boss we
07:33
like bomb like bars we like bars okay
07:37
take whatever bars you’ve got on your
07:39
screen exactly exactly so have you been
07:42
doing oh you know all right thanks for
07:44
asking mate I actually have just gotten
07:46
back from the UK where I was visiting
07:49
family for the first time in two years
07:51
which was uh overdue very overdue my
07:55
family are getting to the age where a
07:56
majority have health issues at any given
07:59
time more reason to be there and giving
08:03
love and moral support
08:05
all right it was great I was there just
08:07
for a couple of weeks this time usually
08:09
it’s a bit longer when I go back but I
08:10
can’t say usually send me back in two
08:12
years so two weeks and had perfect
08:15
weather all the time and you know got to
08:18
walk you know Poldark the show called
08:21
Ark have you heard of that Paul no hold
08:24
on okay so it’s one of these big pba a
08:27
BBC historical dramas that the Brits do
08:30
so well the PBS
08:32
you know then take and run and it goes
08:35
quite a function here in the states it’s
08:36
got a massive following in the UK and
08:38
it’s actually about a guy that comes
08:39
back from the American War of
08:42
Independence and he’s this you know
08:45
Cornish landowner and he tries to
08:48
restart his life in Cornwall right which
08:51
is where the center of the mining in the
08:52
Industrial Revolution was
08:54
corn will mind the metal that built the
08:57
industrial world in southwest England
08:59
and it’s absolutely stunning the scenery
09:03
the landscapes are stunning and anybody
09:06
who doesn’t know Poldark hasn’t got a
09:08
clue what I’m talking about but any of
09:09
your listeners who have will be excited
09:12
to hear that I was walking the coastline
09:14
that you see in Poldark and and you know
09:17
visiting some of the little churches and
09:19
chapels that appear in the show and they
09:21
look right now just as they did in the
09:23
show which is set around the early 1800s
09:27
that gives you some idea of what I’ve
09:30
been enjoying oh nice yeah well cool and
09:34
we had someone ask what the jokes were
09:37
that you were saying it wasn’t really a
09:38
joke what they missed when your audio
09:41
was off but he was just asking a Jew why
09:43
he referred to the year of our Lord
09:45
um 2019 and I I told him you know we
09:48
live in a society basically um so well
09:52
that’s good so uh so you’ve been doing
09:54
what so the last time we had you on we
09:57
were talking about something that you
09:58
had just started then called the weapons
10:00
of mass persuasion program and obviously
10:03
we have a whole episode about that it is
10:05
episode number I want to say 17 No 19
10:10
okay I don’t know it’s it is an episode
10:15
that we had a while back um but if you
10:19
will just give us a brief yeah 19 what
10:22
19 weaponized libertarianism with Robyn
10:25
Curnow um that was the one where you
10:27
famously said that a good number of
10:29
libertarians are mildly autistic among
10:32
other things you said all the good
10:33
things that was that that was my
10:35
takeaway that’s what I remember when
10:37
people say what if someone’s idea that
10:39
might have been your what summary
10:42
without your summary of of what I was
10:45
something longer than I said it’s easy
10:49
it’s hazy it’s hazy it’s hazy it was it
10:51
was it was almost twenty episodes ago
10:53
something about autism and you that was
10:57
what I remember libertarianism
10:58
libertarianism autism Robin Koerner and
11:00
that I made the the what’s the
11:02
association and that’s now how I
11:05
describe it to people
11:06
it was the autism episode
11:08
it was the number 19 number and and this
11:12
is 37 right so another prime number wow
11:15
they really are 53 or something so then
11:18
we’re definitely doing the autism thing
11:21
now definitely we’re going or at least
11:25
good with numbers if not I on this by
11:29
training right this is this is one of
11:30
the reasons why I then just repeat
11:32
nonsense when it comes to politics and
11:33
political psychology I actually care
11:36
about getting things right rather than
11:37
spouting whatever I’ve been
11:39
indoctrinated with which is what most
11:40
universities seem to you about these
11:42
days but I would spend my time the
11:43
university doing physics and and doing
11:45
numbers so so yeah yeah you’re an actual
11:49
like you were doing a thing you weren’t
11:50
just theorizing you’re actually doing an
11:53
actual thing wait you can’t make shit up
11:55
and get them past exams
11:57
you just can’t yeah so was it did you
12:01
transition into politics so that you
12:03
could do that so you could just make
12:05
shit up and then was it like me and this
12:07
is so much easier to just just make it
12:09
up
12:09
you know I hate you know because I was a
12:11
physicist and a philosopher of science
12:13
that’s what I did my masters in I was
12:16
always something under the intellectual
12:18
peerless you know I’ve always liked
12:19
getting truth I’ve always been like a
12:21
truck I’ve always been a truth seeker so
12:23
you know cool cool economics of dismal
12:26
science and you know that you lay every
12:28
economist or even politician down end to
12:31
end and they still wouldn’t reach a
12:33
conclusion right I mean it’s like that I
12:36
didn’t was interested in in that that
12:38
that wasn’t intellectually appealing to
12:39
me I have neither of those disciplines
12:41
until I’m actually I discovered it was
12:44
just a thing that turned me it was a
12:46
Peter Schiff I ever told you this fight
12:48
no I don’t believe your video so um I
12:51
mean this is a little anecdote but what
12:52
the hell it’s relevant III I was doing
12:56
some research for a book I was thinking
12:58
about writing it was kind of the first
12:59
incarnation of the book that you
13:01
mentioned yeah ultimately if you can
13:03
keep it and I was interested in the
13:06
American identity and American
13:07
self-perception and I was just online
13:09
you know researching and I came across
13:12
this YouTube video peter schiff was
13:14
right which many libertarians and
13:16
certainly austrian economist types will
13:19
no doubt have seen a version of
13:21
and here was this guy Peter Schiff
13:23
predicting the housing crash right
13:26
before it happened not only saying it
13:30
was gonna happen more or less when but
13:32
expounding the basic axioms on which he
13:34
made the prediction and then doing kind
13:36
of like the logical the logic of the
13:38
prediction and dumping out with a
13:40
testable prediction of the kind of Karl
13:42
Popper would have been quite happy with
13:43
and I was like she sounds like somebody
13:46
doing like real thinking and kind of
13:47
something a little bit sign sciency I’m
13:49
he’s doing he’s doing a thing he’s
13:51
actually doing a thing he’s doing a
13:53
thing and and so I and he’d mentioned in
13:56
this video this weird thing called
13:58
Austrian economics never laughs so I
14:00
just you know next thing was done Google
14:02
that what’s this dude in an investment
14:04
company on a news show from that
14:06
Austrian economic like sounds a bit
14:08
obscure so I look that up and you know
14:12
so I read the wiki page on that and that
14:14
link to libertarianism and then I read
14:16
the Ouija page on that and the rest was
14:18
history so that’s how I got into so you
14:21
guys shift pills basically yeah yeah I
14:24
got shifted you could say you got sure
14:26
oh that’s even better yeah it’s even
14:28
better than what I came up with oh cool
14:32
cool so and weapons of mass persuasion
14:34
you know give us a I guess a you know a
14:40
30,000 foot view you know Reader’s
14:43
Digest version of what weapons of mass
14:44
persuasion inspiration which is you know
14:47
weapons of mass persuasion calm it’s a
14:49
program more than a hundred units all
14:51
videos they’re easy to consume we’ve
14:54
kind of interactive you know question
14:57
and answers and also live webinars with
14:59
me monthly you can sign up to it on
15:02
weapons of mass persuasion calm it is a
15:04
program in what I call the art of
15:07
political persuasion it basically it’s
15:09
all the political psychology you need to
15:12
know to start actually not only winning
15:15
arguments but winning supporters
15:16
actually changing minds because as most
15:19
activists know especially libertarian
15:21
ones winning arguments doesn’t usually
15:24
win supporters and in fact it doesn’t
15:26
win doesn’t it that’s weird because I
15:30
have I have told a lot of people that
15:32
I’m right and
15:35
yeah and and yeah and yet libertarians
15:39
do not win elections as a result of my
15:42
being right so some would say that that
15:45
kind of proves the point that you were
15:48
just making well it’s it’s a pointed in
15:52
favor it’s a yes keeping my scientific
15:57
hat on I was gonna say yeah it’s very
15:59
science II response but uh okay so cool
16:01
so with that in mind that that’s sort of
16:04
and that’s sort of your mo I mean even
16:05
before weapons of mass but really
16:06
weapons of mass persuasion was was that
16:09
you have to actually relate to people
16:13
and you actually have to talk to people
16:15
where they are and get where they’re
16:17
coming from and build you know for lack
16:21
of a better word for the for introvert
16:23
Aryans you know make connections with
16:26
people and actually like have a human
16:28
experience with people you can’t shove
16:30
ideology and um you know especially like
16:34
especially a fringe ideology but you
16:37
can’t you know something that’s outside
16:38
of the Overton Window you can’t shove it
16:41
down their face with you know even if
16:43
it’s right and we were all or most of us
16:45
are either libertarian or libertarian
16:47
leaning that are watching this we
16:48
believe we’re right awesome and we can
16:53
tell them we’re right and that doesn’t
16:56
make us wrong but it also doesn’t really
16:59
help and it kind of makes us look it’s
17:02
some would say smug I would definitely
17:05
say smug I am I am serious smug good
17:08
this show is mostly about being smug it
17:12
takes a lot to tell for me to tell my
17:15
wife let me let me get let me get myself
17:17
in here because this is this is a this
17:19
for me to tell my wife my opinion is so
17:23
important that I’m taking over the guest
17:26
room and it’s going to be my studio
17:28
where I tell people how right I am once
17:31
a week so in the spirit of not doing
17:34
that um in the spirit of actually
17:38
building stuff with people talk to us
17:40
about your new project and and and you
17:42
know what you want to want to accomplish
17:43
with that okay so before I do just to
17:46
your point I just want to say kind of
17:49
encapsulate it by saying look you can’t
17:51
change somebody’s mind unless you
17:53
understand how mines actually made up
17:55
just like wouldn’t try and get a car
17:58
working if the engine was faulty without
18:00
understanding an engines work I mean
18:03
it’s at that level of basic but people
18:06
do that all the time when it comes to
18:07
political persuasion so you go through
18:09
weapons of mass persuasion and you
18:11
actually learn the process by which
18:13
people form political opinions and then
18:17
I’ll teach you how to hack that process
18:18
that’s the simplest way to put it
18:20
very cool um but to your last question
18:24
or your most recent questions um where
18:29
to begin with the new project all right
18:30
yes so some people have been following
18:32
me on social media will notice will have
18:36
noticed that a few months ago before I
18:38
headed off to the UK I am I kind of put
18:41
out a cryptic request for anybody who
18:44
follows my work likes my style and would
18:48
be interested in finding out more about
18:50
a project a large project that I’m I was
18:54
developing but that I’m gonna need a
18:57
significant amount of volunteer help for
18:59
and and a few people came forward which
19:03
was great and I’ve actually therefore
19:06
lined up a little team all of whom I
19:10
have given more information about this
19:12
project that I’m about to give to you
19:14
but the gist of it spike
19:17
and listeners it is it’s kind of the
19:21
following um and I should preface it by
19:24
saying I think a lot of folks in the
19:26
Liberty movement know that if you like
19:29
my kind of claim to fame my pedigree if
19:31
you like in political persuasion was
19:33
what I did with blue Republicans so like
19:34
back in 2012
19:36
um I created the biggest coalition for
19:39
Ron Paul that the campaign identified
19:42
called blue Republicans right you know
19:47
actually outside the political spectrum
19:48
largely progressives and I I I kicked it
19:51
off with this article called if you love
19:52
peace become a blue Republican just for
19:55
a year and hundreds of thousands if not
19:57
more people identified blue Republican
20:01
many or most of them Democrat
20:02
some independence and switch parties and
20:05
voted for Ron Paul so that’s that’s the
20:08
story now I say that because in some
20:13
ways what I’m looking to do now is is a
20:17
version of that for modern times but
20:22
instead of doing it for the benefit of a
20:25
particular candidate I’m doing it with a
20:28
more fundamental goal the more general
20:30
goal might say of well of solving a
20:35
problem that 70% of people anecdotally
20:38
an according to polls see with American
20:40
politics right now
20:41
which is that we are off the end in
20:45
terms of tribalism polarization divisive
20:49
Ness and division and a desire not to
20:53
judge ideas without judging the people
20:55
who have right and there’s a beer but on
20:58
CNN or Fox News or MSNBC or your
21:00
favorite youtuber in the political realm
21:03
and pretty much you’re gonna hear yeah
21:06
you know everything is I’m kind of
21:08
thought because we can’t talk to each
21:10
other we don’t trust each other all of
21:12
this stuff so lots of people get that
21:15
that’s a problem and in what I do you
21:17
know giving speeches and presentations
21:18
you know in the in the political world
21:21
anecdotally I see that is indeed the
21:24
case so there’s this idea that people
21:26
want to they don’t want it to be this
21:29
way they don’t want to have to vote for
21:31
their tribe they don’t um yeah like this
21:35
because there’s no other option um they
21:37
certainly don’t wanna have to vote for
21:38
the lesser of two evils ribes but on the
21:41
other hands they hate themselves for
21:42
doing it because at the end of the day
21:43
when you’ve only got a choice between
21:45
two tribes you’re gonna vote for the one
21:46
that you think is you know not the most
21:49
evil well harm reduction like like doing
21:52
the least harm possible when you’re
21:55
given to terrible option right and I
21:57
think people accept that it’s accept
21:59
that here’s the thing like it’s only
22:00
it’s not really the least harm possible
22:03
in principle it’s just the least harm
22:06
that I can conveniently do a dis
22:08
election right and we just caught up in
22:12
that and people are sick of it um and
22:14
and maybe a little
22:16
specifically um and again this is
22:20
confirmed by a lot of polls and surveys
22:22
now decent that’s a decent conservatives
22:27
decent liberals progressives um
22:30
middle-of-the-road Democrats
22:32
middle-of-the-road Republicans make most
22:36
of them are looking at the extreme
22:38
identitarian wings on the left and the
22:42
right even on their side we’re going
22:44
this is kind of nuts right like this is
22:48
what we don’t want to be in some
22:51
respects you know decent normal regular
22:54
moderate Republicans are feeling like
22:59
they’ve got more that they’re Republican
23:02
neighbor actually has more in common
23:04
with them then the extreme version of
23:07
the Democrat of which you know the party
23:09
they might be a member so easily yeah
23:11
yeah yeah definitely so there’s this
23:14
readiness to kind of reorient and
23:17
certainly I could talk a lot about how
23:19
the pendulum is kind of swung to the
23:21
extreme on both sides right and so so
23:26
this is kind of the background and when
23:28
I say this to people as I’m saying it’s
23:29
you I’m as you have just done people say
23:32
yeah pretty much yeah
23:33
obviously yeah yeah so now the next
23:35
point to make there aren’t a lot of
23:37
people arguing against that like no
23:39
politics is great right now I have
23:41
really good choices and I’m happy with
23:43
them right yeah no exactly yeah
23:47
so so and what’s happened is this
23:49
pendulum is kind of hitting its limit in
23:51
as much as this the reaction has already
23:54
begun in this extreme the seeds of the
23:59
reversal have been sown so for example
24:01
you have organizations with names like
24:04
more in common
24:06
purple America greater angels that are
24:10
trying to facilitate they’re trying to
24:13
do in a in certain ways what I try and
24:16
do on a big scale with my political
24:18
communication which is to break through
24:21
to people who may completely disagree
24:23
with you who may not trust you you may
24:25
be skeptical of your mole basis by all
24:28
of the things that
24:30
cause political dialogue to be so hard
24:32
to be persuasion to be so hard
24:34
especially in the environment that we
24:36
just outlined so I’m so you’ve got these
24:40
organizations there if you like solving
24:43
bits of the problem so so for example
24:47
one of those organizations actually
24:50
finds Republicans and Democrats and
24:52
facilitates discussions between them and
24:55
you have to be a Republican or a
24:57
Democrat you’re on one of the in one of
24:59
the tribes to participate right and so
25:02
right that’s a good way in right that’s
25:04
something that they’re doing um it’s
25:06
really um it’s interesting it’s having
25:09
some positive effect um I’m actually
25:11
interested in that check out an
25:13
interview I did with a guy called John
25:15
Wood jr. from better angels which you
25:18
can find on youtube just Google Turner
25:19
would you John Wood jr. whatever all
25:22
right I put it in the youtube search
25:24
there there’s a lot of interesting
25:26
things now that’s all great but people
25:29
censor the problem is very fundamental
25:32
and very general and what I do best of
25:37
all is you know I cry I can create
25:41
political brands that facilitate
25:44
effective marketing of good ideas and so
25:51
I see the piece of I see the bit of the
25:55
solution that’s still missing there’s no
25:58
brand that might enable me that say if I
26:00
was a Democrat to talk to my Republican
26:05
friend like there’s nothing I can hang
26:07
my hat on that enables me to talk to my
26:10
Republican friend without him feeling
26:12
threatened by my democratic values if
26:14
I’m a Democrat right like there’s
26:15
nothing to break through the suspicion
26:17
there’s no no it’s about what I am right
26:23
everyone is everyone is under is waiting
26:26
for their belief system to be attacked
26:28
and they’ve tied it to theirs in many
26:29
times many ways very often their
26:32
self-worth so now you’re not just
26:34
attacking what they believe you’re
26:35
attacking who they are and we talk I
26:37
believe we talked about this in the
26:39
autism episode um where you know where
26:42
we said that you know pee
26:44
we’ll have this tied to who they are we
26:46
do listen if you’re watching an
26:47
hour-long podcast with two guys talking
26:50
about libertarianism this is a part of
26:52
who you are and when someone challenges
26:55
that even within libertarianism when
26:58
someone challenges that your your
27:02
hackles go up your your defenses go up
27:04
and you’re no longer having a discussion
27:07
you’re already in fight mode to the
27:10
extent that you’re now going to defend
27:12
your belief system throwing out any
27:15
reason or logic you’ve now you’ve
27:17
entrenched your beliefs this is what I
27:19
believe I don’t need to a question or or
27:23
examine that anymore because I’m not
27:25
having a friendly dialogue with someone
27:26
I am now in a fight for the very you
27:29
know the integrity of my belief system
27:31
and and and and myself as a person as a
27:34
result of it there’s a lot of that and
27:36
it’s basically a zero-sum fight right
27:38
and yes yes in American politics if I’m
27:42
a Democrat and somebody’s talking to me
27:45
who disagrees with me right which is the
27:47
reason I’m having a discussion in the
27:48
first place if he even moved enough to
27:50
be having the discussion and to be
27:52
engaging me and to be trying to change
27:53
my mind
27:54
guess what he’s from he’s a Republican
27:57
in other words he’s from the opposition
27:59
he’s not just from this other safe you
28:02
know whatever it is he’s got the label
28:04
that says I can’t trust him
28:06
right and and that is the stuff of
28:08
American politics yeah he’s not just a
28:11
Republican he’s an anti-democratic ease
28:13
against me yeah right yeah because it
28:15
yeah because it’s essentially
28:17
oppositional and it’s not just
28:18
oppositional it’s yeah there’s been a
28:22
lot of moral mudslinging right so it’s
28:25
not yester I opposed on your policies
28:28
it’s that I don’t trust where you’re
28:30
coming from oh yeah yeah people like you
28:36
um yeah depending on what side you’re on
28:39
you know want to kill babies or
28:41
interfere with my body right what
28:44
whatever it is both of which are pretty
28:45
shit depending on what side of that is
28:48
missile its missile right oh geez the
28:51
very visceral yep yeah right so this is
28:54
all still the setup for where I’m going
28:56
now I mentioned blue Republican
28:57
one of the reasons that the blue
28:58
Republican idea was so powerful why it
29:03
actually created an identifiable
29:05
coalition that actually moved dial for
29:08
one polls kind of see in 2012 to such an
29:11
extent was that I didn’t just make a
29:14
case that there was a great progressive
29:16
argument pro-peace pro civil rights
29:18
argument for this ultra conservative
29:20
Republican as they called him back then
29:22
um I actually created an identity that
29:26
meant that I could still myself identify
29:28
as a progressive Democrat and then go
29:31
and vote
29:31
become Republican for a year and vote
29:34
for Ron Paul and I that in that case the
29:36
identity was blue Republican so myself a
29:39
blue Republican and a Democrat so it was
29:41
a kind of a cover right it was kind of a
29:44
way to enable me to move in a different
29:46
direction according to my principles and
29:48
conscience without feeling the threat
29:52
against my identity which was kind of
29:54
what we were talking about right so now
29:56
when it comes to solving the problem of
29:59
the division in American politics you’ve
30:02
got to do the same thing that
30:05
psychological function has to be also
30:08
served today we have to give people a
30:11
positive identity that they feel that
30:13
they can adopt without saying like let’s
30:16
say if they’re a Democrat they can still
30:18
be a Democrat but they can be this other
30:20
thing too that when they identify
30:22
somebody else with this other thing to
30:24
this other identity those two people
30:26
even if they completely disagree on
30:28
policy on politics even if one’s a
30:30
Democrat and one Republican can say you
30:31
know what I’m sure I’m going to disagree
30:33
with you on everything but because I
30:35
have this other identity that you also
30:38
have I don’t need to be threatened by
30:40
the way this discussion is going to go
30:42
because we are both positively buying
30:44
into a certain set of principles with
30:47
respect to how we conduct politics not
30:50
the policies we support but how are we
30:52
going to talk to each other how we’re
30:54
going to assess our policies how we’re
30:56
going to assess each other’s arguments
30:57
how we’re going to conduct those
30:58
arguments so what I’ve done is this new
31:01
project is the creation of a new
31:06
identity a new brand and you will know
31:09
if it succeeds because
31:11
when somebody asks you in the future in
31:16
a few years what are your politics you
31:19
might say well I’m a libertarian but I’m
31:21
a libertarian or I’m a Democrat Lima but
31:25
I’m a her Democrat I’m a Republican but
31:27
I’m a this new word Republican so that’s
31:31
the signal and it’s gonna be like that
31:33
again it’s just that label that means we
31:37
it’s a meta tribe or a tribe that
31:39
transcends the the politically divided
31:41
tribes with Republican Democrat and so
31:44
it’s gonna do a lot of psychological
31:46
work now I’m not just coming up with a
31:47
name and a brand I am doing that but in
31:50
the launch of this I am actually going
31:52
to lay out the positive I’ll call them
31:58
again meta political principles there I
32:01
know people across the political
32:03
spectrum can sign up to that reflect how
32:06
they want politics to be done that they
32:08
can sign up to as individuals without
32:10
conceding any of their passionately held
32:14
current political views so for example
32:17
um you know the idea that we should be
32:23
able at least in the first instance to
32:25
judge ideas without judging the people
32:27
who have them that’s a good one the idea
32:31
that that’s a good one end of it that’s
32:33
probably a big one too
32:35
the idea that whatever your policy
32:38
position the moral burden is on the
32:41
person who would impose on another
32:43
person to make the case you’re not
32:46
saying you net-like so a libertarian so
32:48
you never impose on the person table
32:50
right okay that might be a bit too much
32:52
for progressives but you can get a
32:54
progressive to say okay if I’m gonna
32:56
make the case that I gonna take
32:57
something away from someone to give it
32:58
to someone or I’ve got to tell somebody
33:00
what they can or cannot do the moral
33:02
burden is on me
33:04
to prove it now that’s a principle for
33:08
judging policy that you can get
33:09
conservatives and progressives to buy
33:11
into and and there’s I’m gonna hang you
33:14
know 10 or 20 such things on this one
33:17
word label that I am confident if I can
33:20
get the platforms I can get enough
33:22
people to say you know I’m a Democrat
33:24
I’m
33:25
I’m a libertarian or I think it’s all a
33:26
bunch of hogwash but I’m a visting I
33:30
mean yeah this is how yeah yeah and so
33:36
that’s that’s the idea and I’ve you know
33:39
I said that a bunch of people have come
33:41
forward and expressed an interest in
33:43
this project so I’ve actually told them
33:46
a lot of what I told you and then I sent
33:48
them a launch article an article that
33:52
basically outlines um what this is in in
33:58
more detail in its specifics and said
34:01
you know read this and if you think you
34:04
could say yes sign me up to this
34:07
regardless of what your current politics
34:08
are could you say you are also of this
34:11
as well as being a Democrat a
34:12
libertarian Republican if so it’s
34:14
successful and let me know if you want
34:18
to volunteer to help me make it on Main
34:20
Street and
34:20
and I’m pleased to say that almost all
34:24
of them said Wow
34:26
yes this is it this is this is what
34:28
we’ve been meeting um so I say I think
34:31
it’s it’s the the everybody has
34:34
identified the problem at a fundamental
34:37
and general level because the problem is
34:40
described fundamentally in January but
34:42
there isn’t a solution that mirrors the
34:44
problem that is understood equally as
34:48
fundamentally and equally as generally
34:49
and a good writer a good persuader is
34:53
able to put into words feelings that
34:56
people have things that people want that
34:58
they can’t articulate themselves they
35:00
give up you know an effective persuader
35:03
can give others the way of articulating
35:08
bringing into their conscious mind and
35:10
therefore using something they feel at
35:12
their gut so that’s the skill I’m
35:14
bringing to what I now think is I think
35:17
say 70% of Americans think is the
35:19
fundamental problem with American
35:21
politics which is that it’s broken very
35:24
good very good yeah and that’s that
35:26
sounds very good I actually I have a few
35:27
questions about this this new program
35:30
but first we are I don’t have I usually
35:33
have an amazing segue and I don’t right
35:34
now other than we’re about halfway into
35:36
the episode and so we have
35:38
do our little plug to help pay our bills
35:42
I wish this paid our bills it will soon
35:43
but guys are any of you looking to make
35:47
a podcast because if you are you want to
35:50
check out anchored FM anchor is the
35:53
easiest way to make a podcast and it is
35:56
everything I’m about to tell you is
35:57
actually true so I’m not just I’m not I
35:59
am chilling but I’m not Schilling
36:01
Schilling like this is true all these
36:03
things are true is the easiest way to
36:04
make a podcast anchor gives you
36:06
everything you need in one place for
36:08
free
36:08
and you can use it right from your phone
36:11
or your computer i we use anchored on FM
36:13
so literally these things are correct
36:15
it has creation tools that allow you to
36:18
record and edit your podcast so it
36:20
sounds great that’s also true they will
36:24
they even distribute your podcast for
36:26
you so it can be heard anywhere on
36:27
Spotify Apple podcast Google podcasts
36:30
Spreaker you name it many many more and
36:33
this is the best part and why we
36:36
switched to them you can easily actually
36:38
make money from podcasting with anchor
36:41
with no minimum listenership we have had
36:44
gone to many other platforms that said
36:46
oh yeah you make a lot of money and you
36:48
don’t make any money unless you have
36:50
thousands upon thousands of listeners
36:52
for each episode if there’s any kind of
36:55
a dip you’re not making money anymore
36:56
with anchor you’re making money right
36:57
off the bat we’re actually making money
36:59
the first time Muddy Waters media
37:01
actually make money so if you are
37:04
looking to make a podcast be sure to
37:06
download the anchor app for Android or
37:08
iPhones or go to anchor fm
37:12
to get started and that is my at least
37:14
30-second plug that is required to be
37:16
made you’ll be doing that as well once
37:18
you’re on anchor and if you are on
37:20
anchor be sure to let us know we’ll
37:22
check out your podcast we will
37:24
positively review your podcasts unless
37:26
it’s like Nazism or something like that
37:28
I can’t promise well I mean if it’s a
37:30
tear like you’re advocating something
37:32
terrible we can’t give a positive review
37:35
for like you know I don’t know some kind
37:37
of eugenics thing or something like that
37:39
communism like wait you know I mean
37:41
there are limits to what but it’s
37:43
something that isn’t going to result in
37:45
lots of people dying we will give you a
37:46
positive review and we hope you give us
37:49
a positive review on our anchor dot F M
37:51
be sure to check that out so Robin back
37:55
to the actual show thank you for your
37:58
patience on that I’m yeah thank you so
38:02
give me so with this this program it’s
38:08
not a program it’s a new identity it’s a
38:10
new brand it is a new brand you could
38:13
say okay so it looks okay fair enough
38:16
it’s so they just declare I’m this this
38:19
is what I buy into these please
38:22
okay so let’s I’m gonna do when I tell
38:26
people I’m an anarchists I’m gonna do to
38:28
you what what you did that well how will
38:29
that work and I have to describe the
38:32
entirety of how a society will work fair
38:35
enough so how will so how does this play
38:38
out give us an example of how a common
38:41
political conversation is happening now
38:44
compared to how it would happen under
38:46
this new in a way it’s really really
38:49
simple because um if you if you and I
38:52
both say I’m a this new thing I’m
38:57
getting it starts with H so I’m gonna
38:59
start all right I’m an age you say I’m
39:02
an age then then because we both know
39:04
what that means that signals to each
39:07
other that we’ve signed up two basic
39:10
principles of civility visa vie our
39:12
political discussions and disagreements
39:14
so now we can actually have those
39:16
discussions now I’m not filtering what
39:19
you say through um oh I need to be
39:22
skeptical because he’s gonna try and you
39:25
know bait-and-switch me on some
39:26
principle or try and you know pull me
39:28
right on this and then he’s got me you
39:31
know eating babies right like a lot of
39:33
people seem to think of their political
39:35
opponents um and and by saying I’m an H
39:38
I’m an H
39:39
you’re both implicitly or maybe
39:41
explicitly signing up to a set of
39:43
principles by which you conduct the
39:46
discussion and then judge the appeal the
39:49
opinions that you’re expressing and the
39:51
arguments that your major um and they
39:54
are carefully chosen to not be
39:57
politically loaded at all right so you
40:00
don’t have to have an ideology all
40:02
you’ve got to do is basically believe
40:05
in the fact that you yeah you have to
40:08
recognize the fact that everybody’s may
40:11
be wrong on a few things that people
40:13
they disagree with you on necessarily
40:16
evil that um you know you mean you mean
40:18
even other people not no not even if you
40:24
are absolutely omniscient right now
40:26
because you have everything at some
40:29
point in your life God like yes right so
40:33
yeah so it’s okay on a journey because
40:37
that’s what you’ve been on um well I
40:39
what I was on a journey until I arrived
40:43
at my final form which is what I believe
40:47
this very second not next week next week
40:50
I’ll I will have gone off the rail but
40:51
right now in this moment the pinnacle of
40:54
correctness yes and that is and people
40:57
obviously we all feel that we’re correct
41:00
whenever ya put out of use but we forget
41:03
and this doesn’t relate to the hacking
41:05
the process by which minds are made up
41:07
we forget the process by which we got
41:09
there we’d ever get for example you know
41:13
although we experience ourselves as
41:15
believing certain things specially in
41:17
politics for the reasons the logical
41:20
reasons the factual reasons we give when
41:22
we’re let’s say having a Facebook
41:23
argument trying to convince somebody
41:24
else to agree with us um yeah what we
41:26
forget is that what we forget is that
41:31
maybe we were exposed to our current
41:34
opinion by somebody who we trusted right
41:38
now trust in the source of information
41:41
or in the source of an argument is a
41:43
massive driver in whether we actually
41:45
end up believing the argument right um
41:48
oh yeah probably the biggest one a yes
41:52
arguably it is so yeah if you can remind
41:55
people of that I’m like I just did there
41:57
even though you know people will still
42:00
experience themselves as believing what
42:01
they believe the reasons they think they
42:02
believe it and you know believing
42:04
they’re right every day um if you remind
42:06
them of that they go oh yeah and it
42:09
knocked them out of that dogmatic space
42:11
right right cognitively in positional
42:14
space so but you know there’s more to
42:19
there’s other things like that so in
42:20
this in this um this new brand one of
42:23
the principles is the idea that we’ll
42:26
map that I measure my compassion by the
42:28
good that I do not just the strength of
42:29
my intentions now a lot of folks who
42:32
aren’t on the left will you’re safe I
42:34
say that they say that again cuz that’s
42:36
a big deal what you just said say that
42:38
one more time I measure my compassion by
42:41
the good that I do not the strength of
42:42
my intentions that’s a big one
42:45
anyway I’m sorry go ahead yeah now but
42:47
again whether you’re conservative
42:48
libertarian progressive none of the
42:51
above
42:52
most people will will by that that you
42:56
can set you that to them and they’ll go
42:57
yeah you know what I experienced myself
42:59
as you know being compassionate because
43:01
I’ve my intentions but yes I recognize
43:03
that at the end of the day if I am
43:06
passionately well-intended lis
43:08
advocating for eating babies and eating
43:10
babies doesn’t actually do any good then
43:12
there is a moral responsibility on me to
43:14
stop advocating for it right that the
43:16
fact that I felt really strongly about
43:18
that yesterday isn’t isn’t actually a
43:21
justification for maintaining that view
43:24
so there are certain things that um like
43:27
that
43:28
that you’re basically simply signing up
43:31
to without conceding any policy as I say
43:33
or any political view um by adopting by
43:36
declaring that you are an H which is
43:40
what I’m gonna call it for now
43:41
I’m I actually this word about what one
43:45
of our one of our viewers has described
43:47
it as principle H principle H so we’re
43:50
gonna go with that principle H thank you
43:53
to whoever that was Chris Reynolds
43:55
attorney at law who is very often
43:57
ironically he’s also the he is the
44:00
ongoing sponsor of the muttered waters
44:02
of freedom Chris Reynolds attorney at
44:04
law
44:05
Alexandra occasi of Cortes hate minute
44:07
so you know not principle H not being
44:11
applied in that situation but but he did
44:14
name it so this is now his thing so ok
44:16
principle age I like that as a is that
44:19
like a holding a holding name for it yes
44:22
yeah it’s a placeholder name yeah it’s a
44:24
placeholder name yeah yeah placeholder
44:26
name that’s great um so is it so there’s
44:29
a few so I mean libertarians might like
44:31
this one um
44:32
do no harm works in politics – now
44:35
that’s quite a libertarian idea first do
44:37
no harm right again where is the mole
44:39
moral burden but Progressive
44:42
Conservatives will say yes that is the
44:44
value right um so again I’m taking the
44:47
ideology out
44:49
it’s meta ideological it’s meta
44:51
political and it’s a positive statement
44:54
of what not doing tribalism polarization
44:59
and divisive miss looks like it’s not
45:00
just complaining about these things it’s
45:02
the positive opposite
45:04
that’s what principle H is is all about
45:08
so yeah so basically this name it’s the
45:13
power of the word like those I blue with
45:15
blue Republican literally just by
45:17
writing one article and coining the face
45:19
blue Republican all over the world and
45:21
that’s literally true all over the world
45:23
people identify his blue Republicans I
45:25
met a guy I might have told you this
45:27
before in over lunch in Belgium in love
45:31
and Belgium who in the course of
45:33
conversation discover I was the blue
45:34
republican guy and told me he’d got on a
45:36
plane to New Hampshire at the hand out
45:37
blue Republican leaflets now oh wow yeah
45:40
that happened because um that happened
45:45
because this identity allowed people to
45:48
know that they weren’t the only one who
45:50
felt this way right there were a bunch
45:52
of them they were team Glee Republicans
45:54
and these this is a new team teammate
45:57
right so you can be Democrat Republican
45:59
but you could all be on Team H and and
46:01
again that’s not why this is gonna work
46:04
that’s not the only reason another
46:07
fundamental reason why this is gonna
46:09
work if I can get the exposure that this
46:11
is gonna need because there’s enough
46:14
people right now out there already
46:16
feeling it right
46:17
I’m not having to convince them they’re
46:19
already feeling it they just need
46:21
somebody to put into words the thing
46:24
that’s gonna make them go uh-huh yes
46:27
that’s it that’s what I’d be feeling yes
46:28
yes yes right right um and so it’s yeah
46:32
and that’s important if I done this at
46:34
another time it wouldn’t have power just
46:35
like blue Republican at another time
46:37
would be meaningless um it’s it’s those
46:40
very unique time for that because you
46:42
had you had
46:45
you had a situation where someone who
46:49
transcended the standard left/right
46:52
narrative who had actually made it to
46:55
the stage of you know I mean he didn’t
46:58
register but he may actually made it to
47:00
the debate stage and people were talking
47:01
about him and he had ads on TV and you
47:04
know he was a legit candidate who a
47:09
hardcore right-wing Republican could
47:12
find every bit as much in him as a
47:14
hardcore left-wing Democrat could that
47:17
they agree with even if there were other
47:19
parts of it that they either didn’t
47:20
agree with or found you know scary or
47:23
you know or maybe you know neither here
47:26
nor there on Ron Paul like he
47:28
transcended a lot of that because he was
47:30
a libertarian and and you know that
47:33
brand applied to Bob Dole or just voting
47:38
Republican in the 2002 midterms or what
47:43
I liked none it wouldn’t have fit during
47:44
those times right you the blue Viper
47:48
compared with the mage that blue yeah
47:50
blue republicanism would not have made
47:51
sense or standard issue
47:55
yeah so so that’s it you know and and an
47:59
important point about this this identity
48:02
thing which you know you broke is that
48:05
you’ve got a you know if you do identify
48:08
something and you’ve got friends who
48:10
identified with that thing you you can’t
48:14
you won’t do anything where you where
48:16
people did you like care about might
48:20
feel that you’re betraying them or
48:22
betraying your your principles that you
48:24
hold together and so you know the
48:28
solution so for today you know if I’m a
48:32
Republican that wants more civil
48:34
discourse and more effective discourse
48:36
with the Democrat I need some way of
48:38
being able to talk to a Democrat without
48:40
all my Republican buddies that I still
48:42
like you know I still want to work with
48:44
politically whatever it might be
48:45
thinking I’ve gone to the dark side
48:47
right and that’s the importance of how
48:49
importance of having the transcending
48:52
new brand or identity so you know the
48:55
reasonably Republican was important was
48:57
I could be a Democrat blue
48:59
republican and go to my Democrat friends
49:01
say look I’m still a progressive I still
49:04
believe in liberal principles I’m even
49:06
I’m in the Republican Party I’m not of
49:08
it but I’m a blue Republican not on the
49:12
dark side and so yeah these this is what
49:15
branding is so important political this
49:17
is why political identity why in a way
49:20
all politics the politics of identity
49:21
I’ve got a unit in my couple of units in
49:24
my weapons of mass persuasion course
49:26
understanding which about understanding
49:28
the sense in which that’s true all
49:31
politics in some way the politics of
49:33
identity I don’t mean man but it’s still
49:37
an identity it may be individual
49:38
identities or an ideological identity
49:40
but it’s an identity they’re they’re its
49:42
tribalism team sports whatever you want
49:44
to call it it is absolutely identity
49:47
based they have found their home and
49:48
you’re attacking their home get away
49:50
from my home in many cases that’s
49:52
exactly right and so you understand how
49:54
that operates which again what the
49:56
program is so so this light blue
49:58
Republican was designed for that purpose
50:00
at that time this principle H is
50:02
designed for you know this time and the
50:07
major fundamental problem in American
50:10
politics and by the way for libertarians
50:12
um you know there is a political open
50:16
goal or a meta political open goal right
50:18
now which is this disaffection with
50:22
mainstream politics and the way that you
50:26
you succeed when there’s mass
50:28
disaffection with mainstream politics
50:30
and I’ve written articles about this and
50:32
I’ve done speeches about this is you
50:34
reflect back the feeling of disaffection
50:37
to the disaffected majority or large
50:40
move disaffected minority you don’t tell
50:43
them what you think
50:45
ideologically like this is how the Vexin
50:47
party won in 45 days right
50:49
they didn’t go around trying to convert
50:52
anybody on any ideology there is no ism
50:54
in the Black Sea party right well
50:56
obviously that is the philosophical
50:58
basis obviously I mean Here I am as a
51:00
Liberty guy I’m all about the Beck
51:02
supply right but they’re not saying
51:04
right let me explain to you sound money
51:06
well no no no that what the hook is the
51:09
hook is your liberties been taken away
51:12
by people
51:13
don’t give a damn about
51:14
self-determination and your right to
51:16
choose your represent your you know your
51:18
representation earn and and you’ll
51:21
really pissed off about it because
51:22
you’ve been lied to and guess what you
51:25
have been lied to and get that’s
51:27
completely unacceptable that’s how you
51:30
bring people over to you politically
51:31
then when there’s listening to you
51:33
because they’re thinking this guy kind
51:35
of sees the world feels the world like I
51:37
do then that guy’s gonna be interested
51:39
in your ideology then they’re gonna
51:41
start asking you questions about policy
51:42
and then when they start asking
51:44
questions they’re telling you what you
51:47
now tell me about what you believe I
51:49
will be disposed to accept because I now
51:52
trust you morally I identify with you
51:55
enough that I not only am I not
51:56
threatened by wherever you’re coming
51:59
from I think I’m gonna like it and it
52:01
might answer some of my concerns cuz I
52:03
see you share my concerns right right
52:05
again larger Faraj is one of the best
52:08
people in politics in english-speaking
52:10
world of this and in it not not only is
52:15
he good at this I mean brexit party like
52:17
you said in 45 days now it kind of is
52:20
from the ashes of the you Kip or
52:21
whatever but the UK Independence Party
52:23
but not I mean it’s it it is it didn’t
52:28
exist two months ago and it is against a
52:31
headwind of major media and and what
52:35
we’re told is popular opinion that you
52:38
know brexit is about you know nativism
52:41
and rate you know bail was a hard right
52:47
conservative right yet fascism and you
52:50
know this is about you know destroying
52:52
our our you know you know destroying the
52:56
future of europe and and you know you
52:58
know throwing your the UK back into the
53:02
dark ages and we’re gonna this is how
53:04
world wars start is you know all this
53:05
crap and and and yet and you know and
53:09
the polls always show you know brexit
53:11
always outperforms the polls because
53:13
people feel browbeaten into not publicly
53:16
sharing this and yet just to prove your
53:19
point there browbeaten browbeaten
53:21
browbeaten gonna go yeah m’ling you know
53:22
I guess I’m in favor of remain or they
53:24
just don’t answer and they go well you
53:26
know I’m not real
53:27
sure what I think and then they show up
53:28
to the poll and they vote brexit or vote
53:31
you know yes son brexit for the
53:32
referendum which was not supposed to win
53:34
that was you know we talked about Donald
53:37
Trump we talked about the fact that the
53:39
polls showed he wasn’t gonna win but yet
53:41
in those last couple weeks it showed
53:43
that he was gonna do roughly what he did
53:45
which was come about two percentage
53:47
shore of the popular vote and the good
53:50
pollsters were saying hey look that
53:51
means he could win the electoral college
53:53
by a you know slim margin which he did
53:55
with brexit right up to the end they
53:57
were saying Pretz if the brexit is gonna
53:59
lose brexit is going to lose and it won
54:02
because of basically your principle
54:05
being applied by one side and the
54:07
opposite being applied of well do you
54:09
support brexit or do you support remain
54:11
remaining or how would ya or you a
54:14
xenophobia are you a you know a racist
54:16
homophobe wants to erase trans people
54:18
and and people go well i don’t want to
54:21
do all that so i guess i’m remain but
54:22
yet the brexit people are saying hey
54:24
look you’ve been lied to you may not
54:26
agree with us on everything but we all
54:28
have to agree that this isn’t you know
54:29
that this isn’t a good you know a good
54:31
thing that’s happened and we need to get
54:33
out of it people like i’m gonna quietly
54:35
agree with you and and that’s a perfect
54:37
example of that um Chris Reynolds says
54:42
the H is the answer we’ll definitely get
54:44
the Dems and Republicans to stop the
54:46
fighting that’s that’s what we hoped for
54:48
he also said well put rob and we’ve all
54:50
been lied to that’s a good common ground
54:52
hard to get hard to get agreement on
54:56
that though and that’s that’s the
54:57
problem which will which we’ll talk
54:58
about well in it I mean just to be clear
55:01
at this point the the being lied to in
55:06
is is is very stark in the UK right now
55:10
right I mean that has legs um
55:12
I mean that can be at the core of a
55:14
political campaign in the UK followed in
55:17
a way that it couldn’t be
55:18
I mean we’re being lied to all the time
55:21
in the US but we’re being lied to all
55:23
politicians are lying to us all the time
55:24
anyway yeah and that kind of low-grade
55:26
it’s a more abstract thing but this was
55:30
just like you know we will honor you
55:32
you’re gonna have a vote we’re gonna
55:34
honor it
55:34
oh no we won’t like it is so black
55:37
yeah I’m yep and so the sense of
55:39
injustice which I I
55:41
again this is a big thing in political
55:42
persuasion you got to speak to the
55:44
disaffection and the best type of
55:45
disinfection is is roar injustice human
55:48
non ideologically mediated injustice
55:52
it’s so raw and stark that you know um
55:57
that’s really the kind of yeah it’s it’s
56:01
a vist yeah it’s a visceral like we said
56:04
we do this yeah we did the opposite of
56:07
this yeah vote for us again anyway as
56:11
opposed to sort of the political
56:12
machination zuv you know promising this
56:15
in in degrees and then give it yeah it’s
56:18
a complete like the build the wall
56:19
fiasco is like he said he’s gonna build
56:21
the wall he’s still saying he’s gonna
56:23
build the wall he’s kind of saying he’s
56:25
gonna build the wall a little bit of the
56:26
walls been built but it’s not like he
56:29
said he’d build the wall and then said
56:30
I’m not building the wall screw the wall
56:32
and then you know black and white a
56:35
thing right you know I’m you know I um I
56:39
made a point in my latest article which
56:42
I wrote in April about legs of thing and
56:45
I could it in the mother of Parliament’s
56:47
this is how democracy dies that um I put
56:50
it this way and I never I haven’t seen
56:53
anybody else but it this way but the
56:55
truth is that Parliament actually
56:57
criminalized the implementation of the
57:01
result of the referendum they actually
57:04
criminalized like you can’t make that
57:06
shit up it’s not not only we not going
57:09
to um are we not going to honor the
57:12
referendum we’re going to make it
57:14
illegal to do so I mean you got some
57:17
serious have you got a license for that
57:20
brexit that’s the standard joke that’s
57:23
the joke about it you know with British
57:24
you know do you have a license for my
57:27
pourable British accent yeah you got a
57:29
license for that brixon Salem yeah so
57:33
it’s in your interesting times yeah you
57:36
know the thing that ghouls me and I
57:38
spend a lot of time you know fight
57:40
obviously yeah my main fight is for
57:43
liberty in the United States where I’ve
57:44
made my home but it seeing what Faraj
57:50
can do basically following the exact
57:53
recipe that I’ve laid
57:55
a libertarian party time and time again
57:57
and knowing that there’s a massive
57:59
political open goal here in the US right
58:02
now and that nobody there’s nobody
58:05
walking through it and in a way my
58:07
project H is is the beginnings of doing
58:11
that although I don’t have the resources
58:13
of an actual political part but yeah
58:16
it’s galling to me because I’m seeing
58:19
the wasted opportunity you know I I mean
58:23
today on my on my Facebook feed I
58:26
noticed something from the libertarian
58:28
party well yeah the level that they’re
58:30
at is um you know what kind of tote bag
58:33
do you do you prefer I’m like I mean
58:36
it’s that is that we’re what we’re doing
58:39
today yeah yeah I I’m just like yo
58:41
meanwhile for watch I mean you couldn’t
58:43
have a better case that it’s going on
58:45
right now right now in a country where
58:48
they speak the same language right I
58:50
mean it’s it’s it’s not even that far
58:54
away it’s really not even that far away
58:56
if you look at the world in general its
58:59
what New York to London is roughly the
59:02
same as New York to Los Angeles right
59:04
it’s not a lot in it I mean it’s yeah
59:07
yeah you can do that flight in five
59:10
hours
59:11
yeah across the pond is a real thing it
59:14
is literally across and and the more
59:16
narrow part of the pond to and yet here
59:19
we are so what it just break down the
59:21
totebag argument because I completely
59:23
missed this what what we don’t want to
59:26
devote too much time this but give me 40
59:28
seconds I don’t obsess people I mean I
59:30
you know I’ve seen this I’ve seen this
59:32
in organizations that I’ve um worked
59:35
with nonprofits right where you’re not
59:37
be doing on the marketing guy I’m the
59:39
communications guy right so somebody
59:41
sends me oh we should get bags and pens
59:43
and blah and blah and blah and I’m like
59:45
why
59:46
how many minds to gonna change well I
59:49
was like no no how many minds are gonna
59:51
change I’m a libertarian Penn great
59:54
right yeah like show me the data if you
59:56
can show me that a hundred tote bags is
59:58
one vote I’m interested but if you just
60:00
doing it because you can’t think of
60:02
anything else to do then I know exactly
60:04
what I can spend that money on and I can
60:06
guarantee that it will move
60:08
mine’s but having a tote bag doesn’t
60:10
move a mind now you can say oh yeah but
60:13
it keeps the brand and blah blah blah
60:15
I’m like no no no no look it yeah you
60:19
know what if I start I will just go and
60:20
I’ll be done I’ll be the libertarian
60:22
John PI again listen oh yeah exactly so
60:29
that I mean people loved it so if you
60:32
want to Star Trek listen the more you
60:35
get like that the people I know
60:40
yep principle eight you morons I’m so uh
60:46
so it’s so dialing back it’s one thing
60:51
that I that struck me and why I had you
60:52
on the first time besides the fact that
60:54
I love your writing and I love your
60:57
reasoning we don’t agree exactly on how
61:00
libertarian and you’re not completely
61:01
correct on libertarianism as I am you’re
61:06
not spike level libertarian as but to be
61:09
fair who is besides me yeah only I could
61:14
do that um but so what I liked about you
61:19
is and what you’re what you’re doing is
61:21
it was at the same time that I was
61:23
getting into stoicism and instead of
61:27
reacting to what people do and say going
61:31
internal and saying well why did I react
61:34
that way why did I have that kind of
61:36
reaction to this and um and and and and
61:41
this is sort of stoicism applied to
61:43
politics and so an example of that is
61:46
self-awareness if I may I mean because
61:49
stoicism has a connotation that I don’t
61:52
think you need to I know what you’re
61:54
saying has this kind of connotation of
61:57
of in a strength of inner assertion that
62:02
I actually and that you do need that
62:04
because you need some inner strength to
62:06
like to self observe right when you’re
62:10
in an argument politically let’s say any
62:12
way you want to go at the DISA thing
62:15
that the person said that was wrong and
62:17
you do need some kind of self control
62:20
which is not stoicism is about
62:21
all right ooh stop yourself reacting in
62:25
other words to be changed not by what
62:27
comes at you but by what comes from you
62:30
that all has flavors of stoicism but I
62:33
actually in in many ways I I think of
62:36
myself much more like a hedonist on
62:38
epicurean yet I am about this
62:43
self-awareness bit there is a minimum of
62:45
self control that I think what I’m about
62:48
is requires but I just think it’s I
62:53
guess what I’m saying is it’s not as
62:55
hard as all that it’s not as hard as
62:56
stoicism it’s just getting bored of
63:00
losing all the time or being ineffective
63:02
right like it’s it’s that’s a bit of
63:05
work but it’s not a ton of work because
63:06
the payoff is so immediate right it’s
63:10
like it’s not like for a self
63:11
flagellation it’s not like you’re going
63:13
without no no you’re not deacon you’re
63:16
not deconstructing who you are as a
63:17
person I’m going through a journey that
63:21
you don’t necessarily have to go to
63:22
through to apply this but this is part
63:24
of that and and one thing I noticed was
63:26
when I sort of became an anarchist
63:29
because I before that I was sort of more
63:30
of a libertarian leaning conservative
63:32
and then as I was kind of really
63:34
questioning the state and the whole
63:36
thing what I found is that I actually
63:38
now even though my belief system is far
63:41
further from the you know what Tom woods
63:45
calls the you know three by five card of
63:48
allowable opinion or what some people
63:49
call the Overton Window or whatever now
63:52
that even though it’s further outside of
63:54
it I’m actually slightly more relatable
63:56
to some people or they’re more open to
63:58
hearing what I have to say because now
63:59
they approach it from like almost like a
64:01
curiosity like what even is that as
64:04
opposed to when I would say well you
64:06
know I’m kind of a libertarian leaning
64:07
Republican and they’d hear libertarian
64:09
or Republican and if unless a Republican
64:13
would hear libertarian and they’d go oh
64:15
you mean like those Ron Paul idiots that
64:16
want the terrorists to win or or a
64:19
Democrat who’s just like oh you means
64:21
that that everyone’s dying in the
64:23
streets that the rich people can be you
64:24
know 20% richer or whatever and I’m and
64:27
and and now when I’m like I’m an
64:28
anarchist
64:29
I still get people that are like oh so
64:31
you want to you know throw a Molotov
64:32
cocktails that you know at you know
64:34
innocent people or what but for the most
64:37
part people are almost more like what’s
64:39
that about and and one thing I found is
64:42
when I’m around a bunch of conservatives
64:44
just dunking on you know progressives
64:47
and liberals I tend to find myself
64:49
sticking up for liberals slash saying
64:52
well you guys kind of do that too when
64:54
it comes to this and then when liberals
64:57
are doing the same thing bashing
64:58
conservatives I find myself kind of
65:00
going well you know you guys kind of do
65:01
that too and conservatives actually
65:03
don’t want people to die and what and
65:06
I’ve what I’ve what I’ve learned is why
65:10
don’t I maybe do that when I’m talking
65:12
to a conservative instead of immediately
65:15
putting my you know anarchist fight the
65:17
state at all costs hackles up why not
65:20
approach this the same way I approach
65:22
liberals talking about this conservative
65:24
and say this guy doesn’t mean this you
65:26
know person guy woman whatever doesn’t
65:28
mean ill they just you know that I
65:33
disagree with with how they’re gonna do
65:35
it but they don’t actually want bad
65:37
things to happen they want good things
65:39
to happen they’re actually very
65:41
passionate about wanting good things to
65:42
happen and I need to have a conversation
65:44
with them about what that means as
65:46
opposed to just beating them over the
65:49
head and calling them a bootlicker or
65:50
whatever right and and you know to put
65:53
some you know something specific on what
65:55
you just said if you can translate you
65:59
know the good intentions of a
66:01
conservative to a liberal that means
66:04
let’s say you can understand the
66:07
Liberals worldview better than if you
66:10
couldn’t do that given that you can
66:13
answer that you can understand the
66:14
Liberals worldview enough to translate
66:16
the conservative let’s say preferred
66:19
policies into liberal speak right to
66:23
blame for liberal okay here’s why the
66:25
policies don’t actually mean what it
66:28
looks like they mean to you from your
66:29
liberal paradigm but that they actually
66:31
can also come out of a good intention um
66:34
but in a way let’s say applying applied
66:37
differently or filtered differently
66:39
through a different experience the world
66:40
if you can do that they’re necessarily
66:43
that understanding of the liberal can
66:46
enable you to better
66:48
liberal of your anarchist views um yeah
66:52
absolutely yeah I understand yeah one of
66:55
the ways I put that in my training is
66:56
look if you want to sell you know
66:58
product yeah product P to person X you
67:02
better understand person X better than
67:05
you understand product P oh yes yeah
67:09
it’s all about selling it has nothing
67:12
that person not pregnant primarily
67:14
concerned about your product they’re
67:16
concerned about themselves and the
67:17
people they care about and if you come
67:19
to them relating it to how I mean if you
67:22
look in an ad for something it usually
67:24
starts with do you have this problem
67:27
well let me tell you why you’re not able
67:30
to have a conversation with someone with
67:31
an ad but you can try to relate to them
67:34
in that you know 15 just 30 seconds that
67:37
you have when I when I do my little plug
67:39
for anchor FM I start by saying are you
67:40
looking to do a podcast let me tell you
67:42
knowing what it’s like to have to deal
67:45
with podcasting let me tell you why I
67:46
think anchor FM is a good idea for a
67:48
podcast this is technically not a second
67:50
plug but you know I’ll get paid I will
67:54
accept the money from anchor FM if they
67:56
decide it’s the second plug but it’s not
67:57
but you know relating to you need you
67:59
have this issue or problem or need this
68:02
solution won’t here’s something that can
68:03
help with that and that’s sort of what
68:05
you’re saying applying it to the
68:07
politics now let me ask you this by the
68:09
way what I was saying earlier about
68:10
reflecting back the feeling of injustice
68:13
that is doing this in politics that
68:16
thing you’ve just said they’re
68:18
reflecting back the injustice that the
68:19
felt injustice is the letting someone
68:23
know that you did you feel their pain
68:25
that you get their problem the thing
68:27
they need to solve and if you
68:29
successfully do that and they go I
68:31
identify with this person there’s that
68:32
word again
68:33
identification again yeah okay then
68:35
whatever solution you give them in the
68:38
next paragraph is the one they’re gonna
68:40
be most likely to believe yeah
68:42
it’s why Donald Trump it’s why a
68:44
billionaire who in no way relates to the
68:46
average person and not just because he’s
68:48
a billionaire there’s a myriad of
68:50
reasons why he is nothing like pretty
68:52
much anyone else but he started his
68:55
campaign by saying I know you’re worried
68:58
about XY and Z and
69:02
I’m gonna do something about it and
69:04
putting aside what you think about I
69:06
mean again I’m not a fan and most people
69:09
watching this are not a fan or our fans
69:11
to various degrees or they may like that
69:13
he owns the left but they don’t really
69:15
like what he does
69:17
other than owning the left the man
69:19
related to people to blue-collar workers
69:23
this is a guy that outsources and hires
69:25
immigrants but he was still he still
69:28
went to people and said look you’re
69:30
worried about this no one else is
69:32
talking about it in any real way and I’m
69:34
gonna do something about it this is an
69:36
important principle of political
69:38
persuasion of scoring a political open
69:40
goal and I have said it in these terms
69:42
to the lp time and time again and this
69:45
is what Nigel Faraj does if you want to
69:47
actually create a massive insurgency in
69:51
a short period at a ballot box that the
69:54
injustice that you reflect back to
69:56
someone has to simultaneously be an
69:59
injustice that all of the mainstream
70:02
political options are seen as being as
70:04
making worse yep right all of the
70:07
mainstream options for brexit are not
70:10
solving the problem they’re making it
70:12
worse they’re frustrating brexit so
70:13
that’s a political open golf the donald
70:15
trump example is a really good one on
70:17
they use this example to you remember I
70:19
don’t know if we maybe we mentioned this
70:21
fight
70:22
you can stop me if I mentioned this in
70:24
the show last show we did number 19 um
70:27
but that time when Donald Trump said
70:32
about the Mexicans not sending their
70:34
good men they’re sending the rapists etc
70:36
etc and remember yeah we may have talked
70:40
about yeah I’m not sure I don’t think
70:41
about it now okay remember like that
70:44
week all of the meet like immediately
70:46
all of the media went oh it’s over now
70:48
it’s over now yes and that we he was top
70:53
with a Republican path right yeah so let
70:55
me decode that for you right what people
70:59
heard why when he said they’re not
71:00
saying the best man immigration we’ve
71:02
gotta stop this
71:03
it isn’t fair that people who break
71:06
rules get stuff that people like you who
71:10
don’t break rules don’t get yeah that is
71:12
what all the blue-collar people who were
71:14
like I don’t know about the sim
71:15
raishin thing maybe it’s complicated but
71:17
I know this thing’s did not fare right
71:19
yep that was what they heard and that is
71:22
what he meant and and you can argue
71:24
about the the actual cause he’s Donald
71:27
Trump and he says all kinds of rubbish
71:29
right right specifics of how many
71:32
rapists and are they sending rapists in
71:33
the mall max oh boy yeah you can argue
71:35
at all yeah get a course of course and
71:37
the fact was like you could go back
71:39
check check it out what the media said
71:42
that week and what happened to the polls
71:43
because he went to double file and now
71:45
he’s in a White House and in and the
71:48
point being that immigration more than
71:50
any other topic is one that everybody
71:53
knows both parties consistently have not
71:57
solved have got in the way of solving
71:59
have been saying one thing and not
72:01
delivering right so and it’s like it’s
72:05
like it’s like you can take it out of a
72:07
textbook
72:08
like no III but but I’m just waiting for
72:11
real liberty folks in America to just do
72:14
some of this I I just you know I’m ready
72:17
to help but you know I it’s it’s tough
72:21
for the reason that I’m you know and I’m
72:24
a guilty of this as well we are in
72:26
ideology driven group and many of us I’m
72:30
not one of them but many people within
72:32
libertarianism like the fact that it is
72:36
fringe whether they consciously know
72:38
that or not they may be have always been
72:40
on the outside this is a group of
72:42
outsiders and they sort of looking at
72:48
how Larry sharp Larry sharp called
72:49
himself an anarchist he’s been on my
72:51
show and he said I’m an anarchist at
72:53
heart I live in New York were nowhere
72:55
near Anarchy we have to take steps
72:58
people were less upset about that than
73:01
they were about the fact that he was
73:03
like a cool relatable guy now some of
73:06
them yes were very upset on ideological
73:08
grounds you’re talking about giving
73:10
twenty thousand uh you know twenty
73:13
thousand dollars per student or whatever
73:15
how was that libertarianism and and he
73:17
explained that you know because the
73:18
alternative is spending several times
73:20
more for garbage and you know I’m
73:23
presenting a you know something to to I
73:25
guess you know yellow pill people in the
73:27
libertarianism but a lot of people they
73:29
just
73:29
like that he was like more like a
73:33
standard-issue politician or a
73:35
standard-issue person that was relatable
73:37
and wasn’t you know politics first and
73:39
was actually trying to build
73:40
relationships and things like that and
73:42
and so there was this sort of aversion
73:44
to UM like popularity and and so you’re
73:49
fighting that to some extent – yeah I
73:52
mean you know and that’s fine – I mean
73:53
it’s not it’s not an either/or
73:55
proposition right no of course you can
73:58
have both you can have a mamuni but
74:00
fight we know it’s fine to be – wanna be
74:03
French to be in it for lots of personal
74:04
reasons and this goes to my reasons and
74:07
personality and this goes to my earlier
74:09
point that we don’t we think the reasons
74:12
we believe things are the reasons we
74:14
give for just to justify them in an
74:16
argument but that’s not the reason we
74:17
actually came to the conclusion the
74:19
reasons we a conclusion are include many
74:22
um kind of subconscious things many
74:25
things to do with personality to do with
74:27
you know trust yeah well our biography
74:29
you know the experiences we’ve had and
74:30
the people we’ve met and what people
74:32
said when and all these yeah there are
74:33
other factors that operate on a
74:35
different level
74:35
um so you know that’s all that’s all
74:40
there but yeah I mean some of the people
74:42
who get upset and when others don’t do
74:45
it their way I mean part of that can be
74:49
that well if we all behave like that
74:52
then not only are we not fringe we’re
74:55
not separate and we’re not superior it’s
74:57
almost like we’re coming down to the
74:59
level we’re giving you much I respect
75:01
too much probability but you know in any
75:03
movement you’re gonna have all excuse me
75:06
all kinds of these folks but the point
75:09
is that who’s you know who’s running the
75:12
ship right that the point is that are
75:14
the people who don’t want to actually be
75:18
effective you have let’s say a personal
75:20
interest in the group with which they
75:22
identify not being effective are they
75:24
dominating or are they part of the
75:27
bigger picture and there are they
75:28
restraining the vehicle or just any you
75:31
know a part of the vehicle um so yeah I
75:35
mean you know and the fact is that I
75:38
mean again stating a principle
75:40
unequivocally isn’t the same as acting
75:42
on principle those do
75:43
different I’m stating at clear
75:47
commitment to a an end destination you
75:53
know the ideal world and a clear
75:55
commitment to it is not the same as
75:58
believing that necessarily the only way
76:01
to get to it is in one step right
76:03
they’re completely different things they
76:05
don’t follow from each other I mean and
76:07
in fact you know the last thing I said
76:09
it’s obviously painting me false and you
76:11
can show that it’s false not just
76:12
historically you can show logically that
76:14
it’s false um and actually I wrote a I
76:17
wrote an article it’s one of the most
76:19
academic things I’ve ever written doing
76:21
just that called prints a purism isn’t
76:24
principled in an impure world and it’s
76:28
one of the most careful things I’ve ever
76:31
written not the title as much as the
76:36
actual thing yeah
76:38
so no exactly and that’s the thing it’s
76:40
it’s and again I’m an anarchist like
76:44
hardcore I mean there are a lot of
76:46
people who call themselves anarchists
76:47
and then you scratch the surface and
76:48
there’s still some so I’ve literally
76:50
just don’t want any government and then
76:53
I want once we don’t have a state I want
76:55
to sit and examine a lot of the
76:57
hierarchies that we have and and ask are
77:00
these hierarchies we actually want or
77:01
are they hierarchies that are born of
77:03
the state so I mean I really want to
77:04
examine break down a lot of stuff even
77:06
post state wood that said I understand
77:09
that the person living on this side of
77:13
me in the house over here will explain
77:16
to you why we need I probably shouldn’t
77:20
do that because I don’t want people let
77:22
them figure out which neighbor I’m
77:23
talking neighbors I don’t know which one
77:26
you don’t know which wall this is but a
77:28
neighbor in my neighborhood will explain
77:30
to you why you know separating children
77:33
from their you know families at the
77:35
border is absolutely necessary and then
77:37
and then you’ll have someone else
77:39
explain why like it should be illegal
77:41
you know that I should be paying all of
77:44
my workers at least $15 an hour and you
77:47
know and and and then someone else why
77:49
you know why they think health care is a
77:52
right and then someone else you know why
77:54
and these you know it’s not these aren’t
77:55
stupid people’s and I
77:57
affluent neighborhood you know but but
78:00
we’re so outside of what even a moderate
78:04
libertarian or even a Ron Paul is it
78:07
would be talking about or even a Larry
78:08
sharp that’s so far outside of what what
78:11
people are even thinking that you
78:13
definitely have to even just try to
78:15
relate to them now let me you you
78:18
mentioned abortion and before I let you
78:20
go I want to I want to kind of end on
78:22
talking about really how this applies
78:26
when the rubber hits the road
78:28
um so abortion is a perfect example of a
78:31
of a true wedge issue a true like there
78:35
is very little common ground you very
78:38
few people talk about you know being
78:41
moderate and abortion even though the
78:43
reality is most people are probably
78:44
moderate and abortion they just aren’t
78:46
allowed to signal that you’ve got one
78:49
side that says that the so we’ll start
78:52
with the the pro-choice crowd and I’ll
78:54
use the terms that they use the
78:56
pro-choice crowd that says you know that
78:59
uh you know this is my BA or a woman’s
79:04
body and it’s her choice and the people
79:09
that are I don’t wanna you know
79:11
criminalize abortion at any level I’m
79:13
going with the most extreme
79:14
interpretation that the people don’t
79:16
want to criminalize abortion even up
79:17
until birth what they’re really saying
79:19
is they want to control my body they
79:20
think I’m the property of the their
79:22
property and the property of the
79:23
government and you know this is a
79:25
throwback to you know you know the white
79:29
male patriarchy that says that
79:30
everything belongs to me and I can tell
79:32
everyone what to do so that’s one
79:34
extreme then the other extreme is the
79:36
the the the pro-life side that says that
79:40
even saying that it’s okay to do sex
79:45
selective you know where they’re
79:47
selecting from embryos which one that
79:49
they want so not even just abortion at
79:51
any in the earliest stage but
79:54
pre-implementation implantation I don’t
79:58
know
79:58
the term yeah your pre-implantation and
80:01
anything in which a conceived embryo
80:04
zygote whatever is being terminated is
80:06
an assault on human life and dignity and
80:10
it’s a throw
80:11
back to its mortar yeah it’s it’s it’s
80:14
murder and it’s a throwback to any other
80:16
to any other genocide or or attempt to
80:19
um you know dehumanize a human and and
80:23
both sides have valid arguments to make
80:27
and ultimately what they’re arguing over
80:28
is win personhood begins but they’re too
80:31
busy throwing hyperbole at each other
80:34
and screeching at the other about how
80:36
they want horrible things for all of
80:39
humanity to ever actually get into the
80:43
discussion which is when does personhood
80:45
begin because that’s truly we if we
80:48
really pull back that argument is if
80:51
this if X is where personhood begins
80:53
then X – anything anything prior to X is
80:58
it’s a woman’s body she can do whatever
81:00
she wants with it and anything after X
81:03
is this is no longer just a woman’s body
81:05
there’s now a hue another human being
81:07
involved in we have to consider that
81:08
human being and any rights that we think
81:10
that woman has the human being also has
81:11
that is the actual discussion to be had
81:14
I consider myself pro se the extent go
81:17
ahead it’s actually more because there’s
81:19
a paradox um the name of which I forget
81:23
um but I used it in an article where I
81:25
actually I actually discussed this very
81:28
thing which is this um when do you have
81:33
a pile of sand right one grain is that a
81:37
pile no ten grains no okay a million
81:40
grains yes okay so it’s the dust you
81:43
have a pile at 500,000 right is that the
81:47
number are we really saying that 499,000
81:49
isn’t and then no that doesn’t make
81:52
sense so in that case there can be no
81:54
piles right because you can’t draw the
81:56
line or clearly that isn’t the case so
81:59
again there’s a met there’s a more
82:01
philosophical problem here where the
82:04
idea is there’s assumption going here
82:08
that you can’t have two things unless
82:11
you can find you can define a boundary
82:13
between them that itself is questionable
82:15
and so I’m just raising that yeah yeah
82:20
by by the way um please I’m so glad we
82:24
have
82:24
discussion because we are one of the
82:26
best articles I wrote last year was
82:28
called the mistake you make in every
82:31
political argument yeah and I did the
82:34
abortion one as a very kind of detailed
82:38
case study I mean I can go on but yeah
82:43
ya know and it’s it’s it is not and and
82:49
the problem is it not only is a
82:51
flashpoint and it and it has a lot of
82:54
logical fallacies built into it we’re
82:56
talking about human beings and when we
82:58
start to live it varies another one is
83:00
age of consent so almost all of us agree
83:04
that it’s not right for a 50 year old to
83:07
have sex with a three-year-old I think
83:09
you’re not you’re gonna find maybe less
83:11
than a tenth of a percent of people that
83:13
think that that’s acceptable in any way
83:16
almost everyone agrees that it is
83:19
perfectly fine for a 18 year old to have
83:23
sex with a seventeen and a half year old
83:25
right like I mean almost like again
83:28
you’ll find some people are like no
83:29
unless it’s the exact age of kick butt
83:31
but almost everyone in a consensual act
83:34
and and some may say well they have to
83:36
be married okay fine then they have to
83:37
be married but but the actual ages so
83:39
long as whatever other precepts you have
83:41
about when sex is acceptable have been
83:42
met 18 and 17 and a half are okay most
83:47
of us agree that it’s wrong for a 25
83:50
year old
83:51
dabbe sex with a 12 year old okay most
83:55
of us agree you’re now gonna have a
83:56
slightly larger number of people that go
83:58
well you know if this but but most of us
84:01
agree including me that that it’s okay
84:03
most of us agree it’s okay for a 19 year
84:06
old to have sex with a 17 year old most
84:11
of us probably disagree that it’s okay
84:15
for a 20 year old to have sex with a 15
84:18
year old and you can go where is that
84:24
line both in terms of the of the older
84:26
person and the younger person and and if
84:29
you even try to broach this subject
84:32
people amia are like wait a second
84:35
especially if they have kids they’re
84:36
like kids of any age even if they’re
84:38
adults at this point yes you have this
84:40
conversation with a parent man they
84:45
immediately wait a second are you about
84:47
to defend pedophilia and it’s like no
84:48
I’m asking you and that’s why I started
84:51
just asking I would say well when do you
84:53
think it is what are you trying to say
84:54
I’m not trying to say anything when do
84:55
you think it is because I honestly don’t
84:57
even know and I would say that I don’t
84:58
know I know that I have no interest in
85:01
teenagers to begin with so I certainly
85:03
this is not a you know yeah yeah yeah
85:07
this is truly alike yeah this is what
85:09
it’s academic and it’s an important one
85:11
too but this is not me trying to like
85:12
mess with your teenager like it’s zero
85:16
interest at all I’m not even at this
85:17
point you really have to impress me even
85:19
in your mid-20s before I’ve just not
85:22
this is not I’m an I’m kidding I’m
85:25
almost 40 I’m not one of these like
85:27
looking for a young blonde first of all
85:29
I’m married but even if I wasn’t so this
85:31
is it’s not me it’s not me but it’s a
85:33
it’s a serious discussion to be had but
85:35
if you try to have it people were like
85:37
whoa whoa are you about to especially if
85:39
you tell him you’re a libertarian
85:40
they’re like wait a second I’ve heard
85:41
about the hold wait what if the child
85:43
can sense things what what are you about
85:44
to do and abortion is a similar thing
85:46
where you’re talking about something
85:48
that is an incredibly nuanced thing to
85:50
talk about and yet people are because
85:53
it’s such a visceral thing people have
85:56
drawn their lines in the sand how do you
85:58
apply what we call the Chris Reynolds
86:00
attorney-at-law principle h22 this you
86:04
know to this thing how would you apply
86:06
that let’s say your and I don’t know
86:09
what you let’s say that you’re a very
86:12
you know extreme pro-choice ER and I’m a
86:16
very extreme pro-lifer um how do you
86:20
approach that discussion with me using
86:22
silence I told you about the article
86:24
that I read called a mistake you make in
86:27
every political argument right the
86:29
follow-up article to that was called how
86:33
facts get chosen and Minds get changed
86:35
and the I could give you a long answer
86:41
to what you said and in fact a long
86:42
answer is in that second article
86:45
precisely the long answer is in that
86:47
second article but know where the
86:49
general point in answer question is
86:52
at um we have visible we’ve used the
86:58
word vest for a few times on the show
86:59
I’m viscerally felt moral intuitions and
87:04
what you need to do is if you’re having
87:08
an argument about age of consent of
87:09
abortion or whatever is to actually get
87:12
directly down to the driving moral
87:14
intuition of the person that you’re
87:18
arguing with you’ve got to be able to
87:22
find it and feel it and then you could
87:25
you can acknowledge it um most of the
87:29
time when it comes to these kind of
87:31
issues most people aren’t aware they
87:35
couldn’t articulate themselves the
87:37
actual the feeling the viscerally felt
87:40
moral intuition that they experience
87:43
essentially as an argument right so
87:47
you’re saying they’re saying they you’re
87:50
saying they can’t you’re saying they
87:51
can’t articulate that most I’m not even
87:54
aware let alone able to articulate the
87:56
viscerally felt moral intuition that
87:59
determines which facts about the world
88:01
they believe right now ii know i was
88:06
saying no they can’t they definitely not
88:08
deployed on it like you said they don’t
88:09
even know much less articulate it’s
88:11
coming from a very very innate part of
88:13
them yeah so when you’re dealing with
88:15
this which is kind of like the hardest
88:16
application of things yes yes why you
88:19
went to it again right exactly you need
88:21
you need to actually find the intuition
88:25
that the person you’re speaking to may
88:27
not have found themselves now you can do
88:30
this because even if you are a pro
88:34
choice person let’s say you can knowing
88:39
what the pro-life position is it’s
88:41
murder you can you can think yourself
88:46
into you could you can imagine even
88:50
imagine the situation which you don’t
88:52
think applies in the abortion case but
88:54
your interlocutor does where you’re
88:56
horrified by murder you can imagine a
88:58
murder right yes you can you can imagine
89:01
what it would be like if you really
89:03
believe that this zygote
89:06
sells was a human being my god you’d
89:09
feel the same way you know it millions
89:11
of them being killed every single year
89:13
then yes you wouldn’t think that the
89:17
pro-life person is evil for interfering
89:19
with your body you think the pro-life
89:22
person is morally derelict for not
89:24
actually burning down every abortion
89:27
clinic yes every murder
89:29
it’s like how is it if you believe that
89:31
you’re not out there how can you even
89:33
live with all the mass murder going on
89:34
crowd yes you can when you understand
89:37
that this stuff is this kind of stuff is
89:40
driven by viscerally felt moral
89:43
intuition that really doesn’t get words
89:45
except when you’re putting the words on
89:48
the facts that you believe about the
89:50
world and your intuitions causes you to
89:52
choose facts right in other words this
89:55
zygote is a human being this I go is
89:57
just a collection of cells that
89:59
obviously isn’t a human being he doesn’t
90:01
have any of the characteristics of human
90:02
being both of those two positions are
90:04
reasonable within the respective
90:07
paradigms and you can find ways to feel
90:12
to access the intuition and when it
90:14
comes things like this you that’s what
90:15
you have to do and and I actually give
90:18
concrete examples of of how you might do
90:24
that now in the article now here’s well
90:26
here’s an interesting one I’m not saying
90:28
this is the best it’s just the first one
90:30
that comes to my mind right okay I’m
90:32
imagine so I used to be very religious I
90:35
am no longer but I know a bit about the
90:39
Bible and the liturgy and that kind of
90:42
thing
90:42
and so it was it was interesting to me
90:45
that that many of the let’s say pure
90:53
pro-life people in the United States
90:54
have a religious basis for that view oh
90:57
yeah and so a lot of them are they would
91:00
self-identify let’s just say Christian
91:01
hmm um now so I get it right I
91:05
completely understand that um well they
91:08
believe that they believe God knit them
91:10
in the womb good Christians and Jews
91:12
from our book you know friend up from
91:15
the from the actual book and to a lesser
91:17
extent Muslims they’re actually Muslims
91:19
are actually more nuanced
91:19
on this issue believe it or not but but
91:21
Christians and Jews in particular
91:23
believe that God knit them in the womb
91:26
at the very moment of conception that
91:28
they were fearfully made in that moment
91:29
well if that’s the case you will kill
91:32
that well here’s the thing
91:34
yes maybe but there were Bible verses to
91:36
the contrary and interestingly I mean
91:39
again I’m just gonna pull this out as an
91:40
interesting yeah yeah
91:42
but the liturgy the original liturgy
91:45
like the language ethnicity
91:47
um they it says we believe he will come
91:50
again to judge the quick and the dead
91:52
quicken the dead were awakened the dead
91:54
not the conceived in the dead not even
91:57
the living in the dead which is the
91:58
modern bastardization but the quick and
92:01
the dead and the quick has a very
92:03
specific meaning right look the
92:06
quickening is when the woman first feels
92:08
the presence of the baby again in the
92:11
womb now I’m not saying therefore right
92:15
pro-choice right but what I am saying
92:18
what I what you can do with by getting
92:20
into the paradigm within which those
92:24
intuitions live right of your opponents
92:28
if you say something like that you could
92:30
you don’t say hey look I gotcha
92:32
you suck it what this is interesting
92:33
what does this mean yeah exactly
92:38
consider now there’s many things you can
92:41
do like that on both sides I’m and I
92:43
outlined many in that in that second
92:46
article and and the article by the way
92:49
you know how fast it shows the mind gets
92:51
changed it’s about the general point of
92:53
our moral universes determine or
92:58
correlate with our moral intuitions that
93:01
drive our political views via
93:03
determining the facts that we believe
93:05
about the world not the values we have
93:07
about them now crazy when we’re having
93:10
the abortion argument somebody saying
93:12
you’re a murderer right and something
93:15
saying you’re trying to control my body
93:17
but here’s the thing if you actually
93:18
take it out the abortion argument and
93:20
you just say to both sides of that are
93:23
you okay with murder
93:24
they both say no if yeah are you okay
93:27
with imposing on your inside the bodies
93:30
of other people they both say no right
93:32
now so yeah
93:33
it’s not the values that have the
93:34
disagreement even though it feels like a
93:36
disagreement of values when we’re having
93:38
the abortion discussion it’s actually
93:40
add to your earlier point a disagreement
93:42
about facts in this case what is a human
93:45
being what is a person but then said the
93:48
critical question becomes how are the
93:51
facts determined well they’re determined
93:53
by viscerally felt moral intuitions so
93:55
you have to go to those and that’s
93:58
that’s the deep part of this but now
94:01
that but facts don’t facts don’t care
94:03
about your feelings facts are rooted in
94:06
your feelings not always one plus one is
94:09
two regardless of how you feel about it
94:11
yes um you know and there’s something
94:14
called the human the human divide the
94:19
human something like that which is that
94:23
you can’t you can’t get to an ottoman is
94:26
right you can’t what Furman is this
94:30
isn’t an important thing in philosophy
94:32
moral philosophy right that that
94:35
whatever you believe about the the
94:38
material world can never determine your
94:42
moral values so said human a lot of
94:44
things you know paper has been you know
94:46
written on about this um how Holmes law
94:50
humans when it come when it no what no
94:53
it’s got another name um but but yes
94:55
whatever um but the fact is
94:59
neurologically we’re actually wired
95:01
right so I want you there’s a physical
95:03
basis not only from deriving an ottoman
95:07
is but we actually in another way derive
95:10
is from the ort in a way and um you’ve
95:16
got to understand that and so I as I say
95:18
I’ve mentioned that article of ten times
95:20
now but it’s all in there it’s all in
95:24
yeah and if you shoot that over to me
95:26
we’ll put it in the notes and of course
95:27
you know if you go to Robyn Curnow calm
95:29
you can you can see yeah all of this
95:31
stuff but but yeah I mean it’s it’s this
95:34
is a perfect example of the problem with
95:37
talking religion politics even sports
95:39
like really talking like stuff with
95:42
people especially people that aren’t
95:44
into talking about this stuff is that
95:47
they’re very quickly gonna the less and
95:50
and it’s it’s it’s it’s worth the less
95:53
they have actually spent the time
95:55
fleshing it out the more likely they are
95:59
to immediately fall back on that on that
96:01
intuition of this is right you’re wrong
96:04
and not just you’re wrong you’re
96:06
attacking me like you are actually
96:08
attacking what I believe and you’re and
96:11
not just what I believe but for example
96:13
an abortion you’re attacking the babies
96:14
or you’re attacking the women you know
96:17
yeah you’re a merc you’re either you’re
96:20
a murderer in both cases more more and
96:23
more I’m seeing in the in the pro-choice
96:24
crowd they’re saying well you’re a
96:26
murderer if you’re pro-life because
96:27
they’re still gonna try to get abortions
96:29
and and now they’re gonna die and women
96:31
are gonna die as a result of you’re
96:33
pro-life you’re you’re anti-choice
96:35
activism is going to result in women
96:37
dying therefore you’re a murderer and
96:39
you know in the immigration debate any
96:41
of these debates and I struggle not to
96:43
do it because I’m an anarchist I think
96:45
the whole thing’s murder like I I you
96:47
know Taxation stuff the government’s an
96:48
imposition on our life it’s hard for me
96:51
not to tell my dad or you know my you
96:54
know whoever you know someone I love and
96:56
care about and I know doesn’t want to be
96:57
that like what you’re advocating is kind
97:00
of murder II and and but but how do you
97:03
do that without basically telling the
97:05
person I think you’re a terrible person
97:07
and you can’t so you have to come at it
97:09
from the the belief that they are coming
97:11
from a good place and then go from there
97:13
yeah you know let’s just be clear some
97:16
thought there are terrible people right
97:17
I mean I know yeah even you know
97:20
relativist or anything but you what you
97:22
can do is you can you know another of
97:25
hugely important principle in sales let
97:28
alone political persuasion is to meet
97:30
the objection upfront and if I know that
97:33
when I share with you my view you’re
97:35
gonna hear that I think you’re a
97:37
murderer what I can do is I can preempt
97:39
that and I can say look I know how this
97:41
got a sense to you but um let me let me
97:43
just explain why it feels this way to me
97:45
I completely get that other people might
97:47
feel just as strongly until the same
97:48
things about me like you can pack it up
97:51
you can write you can open the fact that
97:53
you know this is gonna sound a bit
97:55
strange that they’re actually
97:59
thinking that somebody’s a murderer for
98:01
their points of view is a lot more
98:04
sensible and a lot more common than then
98:08
people expect and therefore we shouldn’t
98:12
get all we shouldn’t actually think it’s
98:15
such a big deal like being a mutt like
98:17
doing here no yeah yeah he’s actually
98:20
less of a big deal as long as you’re not
98:21
wielding the knife I’m not saying it’s
98:23
not a big deal
98:24
but you see what I mean I mean because
98:26
precisely because it does go this way if
98:29
you stand on principle about anything
98:31
you do quickly get to that point the
98:34
logical the logical conclusion is that
98:36
someone who disagrees with me a lot is
98:39
going to cause people to die and
98:41
therefore so even if I don’t think
98:43
they’re a murderer or a quote unquote I
98:45
think that what they’re advocating for
98:47
is going to result in people dying and
98:49
that that’s let’s be clear in a manner
98:52
of speaking
98:53
you know I mean I was obviously I was
98:56
passionate against a bunch of the
98:59
American wars right second world war and
99:01
and so on and so on um there were people
99:04
voting to kill babies in Baghdad I mean
99:08
that’s true
99:09
so from where I sit ok well then good
99:12
but you know what we’re all doing things
99:14
that contribute to murder all the time
99:16
right once you go down there yeah I will
99:19
hold on I’m paying my tax yeah alright
99:21
because I don’t want to be put in jail
99:23
cuz I be put in jail a little
99:24
contributing to murder then actually
99:26
spend the life right so we’re all doing
99:28
it so so the fact that you can level an
99:30
accusation that’s that terrible against
99:32
someone doesn’t make him any different
99:33
from you it’s only a matter of degree
99:36
it’s a matter of quantity not quality
99:38
yeah and and we just and the humility is
99:41
that’s really the humility that’s so
99:44
important I mean with libertarians you
99:46
know we talked about some of the the
99:49
traits that some libertarians have that
99:53
maybe frustrated me when you call it
99:55
when you call me autistic you know a lot
100:01
of people will go through an anarchist I
100:03
mean I do this all the time I’m at these
100:05
events all the time right well I’ll talk
100:06
to my Anika’s friends and they’ll you
100:09
know they’re anything that is anything
100:11
that you add okay
100:13
there isn’t their idea of pure anity
100:15
anarchist utopia is essentially well
100:18
something you know someone even say
100:19
murder or whatever but yeah whatever it
100:21
is um you bootlicker thank God but they
100:24
drove there on a public road so I’m
100:27
right okay so what we doing we’re just
100:29
talking right you know and it’s at the
100:31
end of the day being principled this how
100:34
many many of your to what extent are you
100:37
actually prepared to take the pain of
100:38
acting on your principles rather than
100:40
compromising and and we’re all you know
100:43
I think it’s very hard I don’t know that
100:45
you can divide the world up into two
100:47
camps of principle and not principle
100:49
based on you know grandstanding on
100:51
statements about anything I just you
100:54
know show me yeah I think there are
100:57
definitely people that are truly not
100:59
principled and I think like a lot of
101:00
politicians that are just pure cynics
101:02
they are just in it for themselves too
101:05
and and and and there are a lot of
101:06
people that are like that I think
101:07
overall most people have some principle
101:09
to speak to your part about public roads
101:11
just to clarify for people who may think
101:13
that you’re doing the roads fallacy that
101:16
oh you can’t be an anarchist if you use
101:18
public roads that’s not what he’s saying
101:19
because I I immediately know where a lot
101:22
of people are gonna go with that
101:23
that’s not what he’s saying what he’s
101:26
saying is that you’re using public roads
101:29
is because you don’t have another viable
101:30
option to get to that thing you have to
101:33
use a public road unless you want to
101:34
walk on the to shoulder the lamian then
101:37
you’re really you’re still using a
101:38
public road there’s really not a way
101:39
other than trespassing over many
101:40
people’s properties thousands of people
101:42
Robin he’s what you could do is you
101:45
could try and find private means to find
101:48
out all of the landowners between where
101:49
you are in the libertarian convention
101:50
you could call them all up and get
101:52
permission right and you completely
101:54
treat your principles let’s climb over
101:56
their fences right trip mate it what
101:59
kind of makes my point even more
102:00
strongly right to some degree you have
102:04
sacrificed your most pure version of
102:07
your principle for the kids sake of
102:10
convenience which I use I have in my
102:13
wallet
102:14
I have Federal Reserve notes my god I
102:17
mean even Menorca even uh even a lot of
102:20
conservatives are against the Federal
102:22
Reserve and yet I’m not like openly
102:25
trading Bitcoin ever
102:26
I have some Bitcoin but I’m not I’m not
102:28
you know yeah you know I’m not
102:31
exchanging Bitcoin yet because it’s not
102:34
right now viable so too we all decided
102:37
the point he was making is we all to
102:39
some degree have have made an acceptable
102:42
compromise to us where maybe your kids
102:45
in the public school whatever that I am
102:48
doing this even though it goes against
102:50
my principle and even though I advocate
102:52
against it and for a better option
102:54
because at least for now I don’t have a
102:56
good option and so if someone takes that
102:59
a little bit further and says well I’m
103:02
participating in in Larry sharp I am
103:05
coming up with a program where we’re
103:07
gonna give every kid at sixteen and
103:09
twenty thousand dollars that they can do
103:10
whatever they want education wise or use
103:12
it to start a career or whatever no it
103:14
doesn’t meet my my my principles of how
103:17
things should be but it is what I
103:20
believe to be the best compromise in
103:22
face of reality like you said an
103:24
unprincipled world the reality of what
103:27
we have now this is so much better than
103:29
that and I don’t even necessarily agree
103:31
with that plan but I get why he’s doing
103:33
it I’m not gonna call him a bootlicker
103:34
for not even further you you know if
103:38
you’re gonna argue like he could also
103:40
make the case and this case often is a
103:43
good one to make is often true that by
103:45
making what looks on the surface like
103:47
something of a compromise you actually
103:49
create a situation in which getting to
103:52
the the agreed on final goal like the
103:55
uncommon rising gold is actually easier
103:57
so it’s not that you compromise their
103:59
because it’s just a step in the right
104:00
direction
104:01
and then you stop in a better place but
104:03
that it is actually a step toward where
104:05
you will want to go so the only argument
104:07
is are you getting there in one step or
104:09
ten and or is that one of the ten steps
104:13
that would get you there or not
104:14
relative questions and this is why in my
104:17
work and and and and reasonable people
104:20
and crowd principal people can disagree
104:22
in each case on the difference between
104:25
the two but in my work I say look you’ve
104:28
got to understand the fuck the
104:29
fundamental difference ironically the
104:31
difference in principle between a
104:34
principled compromise and a compromise
104:36
of principle you never do the second but
104:40
people
104:40
can disagree about what the first looks
104:42
like and if you want to actually hat be
104:45
principled which means have changed the
104:47
world such that your principles are
104:49
instantiated you have to discuss the
104:52
first you have to do you you you you
104:55
have to you have to yeah yeah you have
104:58
to and you have to acknowledge that none
105:03
of us is living purely to principle
105:05
because if we were for example as an
105:07
anarchist that Street right there is a
105:12
public road and in order for me to order
105:18
something using Amazon I have to
105:20
participate in taxation through the
105:23
sales tax I have to participate in the
105:25
Federal Reserve by exchanging Federal
105:26
Reserve notes for for you know that
105:29
purchase I have to walk across a public
105:32
street and I have to open a mailbox or
105:35
or or or open my door yeah I think yeah
105:40
yeah bootlicker bootlicker and and
105:42
listen get commie listen and voting
105:45
Bernie I you yeah and but this is the
105:50
real like or it’s like so and this is
105:54
why a lot of people that are true
105:55
hardcore anarchists they become like
105:57
more and people in general that because
105:59
the more principled they become or the
106:01
more they would call themselves
106:02
principled they become the more in
106:04
introvert they are so disgusted by the
106:08
and this happens with a lot of hardcore
106:09
Christians and people other religions
106:11
they interfere introvert introvert they
106:13
get in more and more internal because
106:15
they’re so sickened by the world and the
106:16
thought of compromising to even talk
106:18
with one of those scumbags and these are
106:20
people that often end up killing people
106:21
because the only way they can interact
106:24
with the world is to destroy that you
106:26
know as much evil as I can before they
106:28
take me out you’ve done nothing you’ve
106:30
accomplished nothing other than
106:31
destroying your life the life of those
106:32
other people who also thought they were
106:34
doing the right thing more than likely
106:35
very few people wake up and go what evil
106:38
can I do today so you’re really like
106:40
just harming people that also thought
106:41
they were doing the right thing you’ve
106:42
accomplished nothing other than making
106:44
whatever you believe look ridiculous and
106:45
and and you haven’t helped anyone if
106:48
you’ve you’ve done harm and so that’s
106:52
why I’ve become very I’m not sure I’d
106:54
call myself a
106:54
pragmatist to the extent that many
106:56
people associate pragmatism I’m still
106:59
agnostic to the question as to whether
107:01
or not electoral politics is even an
107:03
effective way to accomplish change but
107:04
it might be and for those who have idli
107:08
think that it does I’m not gonna give
107:10
you a hard time because a I’m not on two
107:12
percent sure but even if I didn’t agree
107:14
with you I get that you’re trying to do
107:16
something you’re at least as much flak
107:19
ifs people give Libertarian Party
107:20
activists and you know and and and any
107:23
kind of activists in in electoral
107:25
politics you’re trying something you’re
107:27
trying to do something yeah your
107:29
argument such a great point spike I mean
107:32
you know it’s live and let live right I
107:34
mean it is yeah I’m in a fundamentally
107:39
an epistemic reason I’m into Liberty
107:42
it’s because what whatever else is or
107:45
isn’t true I don’t know enough shit to
107:47
know better than you what’s good for you
107:50
exactly the idea that I possibly could
107:53
is is it insane right so I’m an
107:55
epistemic so give them that um I don’t
107:59
see that there’s a way that I personally
108:01
don’t see there’s a way to be a
108:02
consistent libertarian let alone an
108:03
anarchist
108:03
if I’m yo whilst believing that I do
108:08
know better then every brought everybody
108:12
on how to accomplish things in this
108:14
world that has loads of variables you
108:16
know and for themselves and for and for
108:21
themselves as individuals so not just I
108:23
have the best prescription for society
108:25
at large or the world at large I know
108:28
better than Robin Koerner how Robin
108:31
Carter should be living his life on a
108:35
day to day basis I as an anarchist which
108:39
which thought and follow the logic here
108:42
if that’s the case I should be working
108:44
to control Robin because I know better
108:46
than Robin how he should be being Robin
108:49
I know how to Robin better than Robin
108:51
therefore and all of you that are why I
108:53
know how to you better than you why am i
108:56
an anarchist or libertarian I should be
108:58
like a hardcore North Korean communists
109:02
forcing you to at every level to do
109:04
things if I follow the logic of that so
109:06
obviously I don’t know you
109:08
actually um some people will be thinking
109:10
yeah but other people do that too not
109:12
just libertarians in there right
109:13
do everyone does it yeah yeah the reason
109:16
is particularly interesting for
109:17
libertarians though is that there’s an
109:19
internal contradiction in the
109:21
philosophically when when that doesn’t
109:23
kind of exist for non libertarians and I
109:27
actually wrote about this years ago when
109:28
I wrote an article called something like
109:30
the opposite of tyranny is the author
109:35
though the opposite of Liberty isn’t
109:37
tyranny it’s orthodoxy and by the way
109:41
that’s exactly what George Orwell said
109:43
but I hadn’t realised that when I wrote
109:45
the article the opposite of Liberty is
109:48
orthodoxy are you saying orthodoxy
109:52
applied to how you interact with people
109:55
so but basically I unpacked it in a more
109:58
recent article where I said beware the
110:00
in light it’s called beware the
110:01
enlightened ones and I talked about for
110:03
the scientism versus science right right
110:06
in the sense of um this is the truth I
110:10
know everything I need to know about the
110:13
truth therefore I don’t need to let your
110:17
data or your experiences or any of my
110:20
interactions with the world
110:21
um affect my belief I can discount that
110:25
possibility out of the gate because I’ve
110:27
already arrived now that is called in
110:30
physical sciences that I that approached
110:33
words called scientism and it’s the
110:35
opposite of science and it’s very
110:37
interesting to me as a scientist and a
110:39
philosopher of science that the
110:40
discipline that we have that are
110:41
arguably I would say brings us has
110:44
brought us closest to the truth has made
110:45
the most moves towards the truth in its
110:47
own domain is science is let’s say the
110:50
physical sciences and that is done so by
110:54
having the axiom that everything it
110:57
knows is false of knowing that it
110:59
doesn’t know and looking to find where
111:01
it is wrong where is in politics what
111:04
most people do isn’t the political
111:06
analog of that they do the political
111:08
analog of scientism which is I know I’ve
111:11
already arrived so what I can do is
111:13
ignore all the day two of your
111:15
experience when you tell me that my
111:17
libertarian Anna um utopia is actually
111:19
gonna be really shit for you what I can
111:21
judge
111:22
don’t get it right it’s like I’m
111:23
disengaged anything you tell me at that
111:25
point means that you don’t get I have it
111:27
I have it I have achieved the
111:29
singularity and it’s rien sended
111:31
humanity by knowing all as a God on
111:34
earth is really what people are saying
111:36
and and it’s what we think about our
111:39
beliefs and that’s what’s so crazy about
111:40
it is even in this moment you rob and
111:43
Koerner believe you’re right and as
111:44
humble as you are you believe you’re
111:46
right where else you wouldn’t believe it
111:47
it’s it’s I’m sure there’s a paradox
111:48
named for that too you can be as humble
111:51
as as soul-searching as I am love
111:55
reading stuff I disagree with now I
111:57
covet it and I always look for stuff
111:59
because I was the way I look at it is if
112:02
I argue with you and I say I’m right and
112:04
you go no I’m right and here’s how I can
112:07
prove it and I can look at and go wow
112:08
now I’m right because I’ve you show me
112:11
this thing I’m always I and I love it
112:15
but still in that is that I’m right like
112:18
I’m so right I’m so right that I’m
112:20
always more right right but so that do
112:23
that like so that’s an implied thing but
112:26
you can’t approach everyone like that
112:28
and you can’t approach things like that
112:30
because you’re attacking everyone and
112:32
and it’s I mean that’s what you’re
112:34
saying basically I mean I and it’s it is
112:38
super interesting because like I was a
112:40
physicist we know that our physics is
112:42
wrong quantum mechanics and general
112:43
relativity which describe the world with
112:45
amazing precision are incompatible we
112:48
know that what we believe fundamentally
112:49
is wrong
112:52
but but it’s closer to the truth than
112:56
anything else and it’s so good that we
112:58
can get on planes and not lose our lives
113:00
when they fall out of the sky right it’s
113:02
so so there’s a way of of being
113:06
arbitrarily close to light and acting
113:10
accordingly whilst knowing you’re wrong
113:12
and that is the that is actually the
113:16
reality in which we live and there is a
113:18
basis for humility and yeah it shouldn’t
113:21
be as hard as all of that because
113:23
there’s no other game in town and the
113:25
earth is flat and the earth is flat
113:34
my favorite response to that ever that
113:37
is the most both the most British and my
113:40
most favorite response to that ever is
113:43
yeah quite that’s how that’s how I’m
113:45
gonna respond to that from now on that’s
113:47
perfect so okay
113:49
I love it I absolutely love it so Robin
113:52
before you are an absolute gem of a
113:54
human being I love having you on I
113:56
always love having great conversations
113:58
with you if I could have a Robin minute
114:00
on every show where you just came on and
114:02
blew everyone out I wish I could I wish
114:05
your schedule could afford that um
114:07
before I let you go anything that you
114:09
haven’t had a chance to plug talked
114:11
about any final points you want to make
114:13
anything that you want to talk about I
114:15
give you the floor for as long as you
114:16
want the floors yours Robin Koerner well
114:18
look I I have just redone my rubbing
114:21
Kern a website a couple of months ago
114:23
I’m haven’t really talked about it much
114:25
so go to please go to Robyn Curnow com
114:27
um whether you’re looking for you know a
114:31
speaker candidate or activist training
114:34
work you know in in political
114:36
communication and political persuasion
114:38
psychology etc it’s all there you can
114:42
see the different stuff I do if you’re
114:44
looking for branding for a campaign you
114:48
know I all the kind of stuff I do is
114:50
laid out on Robin Connor calm now and
114:53
also you know you can get a copy of my
114:54
book there if you can keep it with you
114:56
kindly mentioned before or if you don’t
114:58
want any of that but you’re just kind of
115:00
like the stuff I do um
115:01
stick your name in the box the SUBSCRIBE
115:03
box and I’ll add you to my low quantity
115:06
high quality mailing list which I’m not
115:08
spending there enough time on but I’ve
115:10
got to be collecting names right but yet
115:12
more people that are added the more time
115:14
I spend on it yeah that’s that’s true
115:16
I’m also on Twitter so that’s our kernel
115:19
our KOTR any arm is my handle um oh and
115:22
you know what recently I did a few good
115:24
interviews on YouTube which I’m really
115:27
pleased with the first was with Andrew
115:29
yang the second was with a guy called
115:32
John Wood jr. from an organization
115:35
better angels that I mentioned at the
115:37
top of the show mmm related to the
115:39
project H but recently I did the most
115:43
recently I did an interview with Ammon
115:45
Bundy yeah man following up
115:48
it’s about immigration that um I think
115:52
was one of the most phenomenal I thinks
115:55
I’ve I’ve seen him come up you know when
115:57
we got going we got into immigration in
116:01
some detail and he I was that was kind
116:05
of cool so check any of that out what
116:09
else oh and you I’d forgot to uh you’ve
116:11
thrown your hat in the ring
116:13
haven’t you well I don’t know I’ve kind
116:16
of thrown a hat in a ring um you know I
116:21
obviously want to save Liberty in
116:23
America and that’s still my my big stick
116:25
but um if if brexit isn’t done by
116:30
october 31st
116:32
i in a lot of other Brits because I’m
116:34
still a British even though I’m also an
116:36
American will be very angry so I did
116:38
actually today for the first time ever
116:41
in my life have been anything like this
116:42
um I sent an application to the brexit
116:45
Party to stand for Parliament um if
116:49
there is an election in the event
116:51
general election in the event that
116:53
brexit doesn’t happen as promised I’m
116:56
sure they’ve got tens of thousands of
116:57
great candidates who don’t live 5,000
116:59
miles away in Seattle so you know I’m
117:01
not holding my breath
117:02
but yes I I did and that and I would be
117:05
delighted I would be delighted to see an
117:09
America a vehicle as inspiring and
117:13
effective as the brexit party together
117:16
to do thing in in the u.s. mean until
117:20
that time I’m happy to help any Liberty
117:22
candidates in the US I mean anywhere in
117:25
the anglers any anywhere in the
117:27
Anglosphere Robin Kramer is available
117:30
anywhere where English is the primarily
117:32
spoken language Robin is here so Robin
117:36
Koerner calm that has your interviews
117:39
and everything else on it right hasn’t
117:41
got the interviews that’s just our
117:42
YouTube just check you’re still my name
117:44
is YouTube okay I’ll look those up and
117:46
I’ll put those in the show notes yeah
117:48
yeah okay okay someone goes there um but
117:52
yes that would be I’d appreciate that
117:54
well Robin thank thank you thank you
117:56
again for joining us and guys if you’ll
117:58
stick around for the outer I want to
118:00
talk to you a little bit for I let you
118:01
go but guys thank you
118:02
for joining us on my fellow Americans be
118:05
sure to tune in tomorrow on muddy waters
118:08
media Thursday for the writer’s block
118:10
Matt even told me who his guest is I
118:13
literally forgot it as soon as he told
118:15
me but it’s gonna be great
118:16
be sure to check that out tomorrow
118:17
Friday I think we’re having an episode
118:20
of mr. America the bearded truth with
118:23
Jason lion I think his back is OK enough
118:25
for him to be resuming that again for
118:27
his whole what I call his wholesome
118:28
Sabbath episode I’m only I call it that
118:31
no one else calls it that I just do it
118:33
his shabbat shalom episode of of the mr.
118:36
maryk of the bearded truth he’s total
118:38
Gentile have a great weekend and then
118:40
join us again from Monday where I
118:41
believe again we’ll be having the Monday
118:44
the non Shabbat episode of mr. America
118:46
the bearded truth with Jason Lyon join
118:48
us again that Tuesday for the money
118:51
waters of freedom we’re Matt right and I
118:53
parsed through the week’s events with
118:56
the with the the special I don’t have a
119:02
good way to describe just tune in its to
119:05
guys someone who’s also like me and we
119:08
we just kvetch over what happened for
119:10
the week and then tune in again next
119:11
week next Wednesday for my fellow
119:14
Americans well I will be interviewing
119:16
Chloe Val dari and talking about the
119:18
theory of Enchantment their even
119:20
champion so that would be fun so guys
119:22
again thank you to robin Koerner thank
119:24
you all for tuning in and god
119:27
[Music]