(((My Fellow Americans))) #126: Sheriff David Hathaway

(((My Fellow Americans)))

About This Episode

A libertarian, voluntaryist…Sheriff?

Spike’s guest tonight is the highest law enforcement official in the border county of Santa Cruz County, Arizona. And yes, he is an outspoken libertarian, one who fights against tyranny at the state and federal level on a daily basis.

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Episode Transcript

This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.

i’ll be buried in my
before i become a slave yes
that is
but it seems like since that day
we have solely changed
that is
but it seems like since
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from beautiful myrtle beach south
you’re watching my fellow americans
with your host spike cullen yes
yes thank you so much oh
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with you
as long as you’ve actually been injured
if you haven’t been injured he’s
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pouring down on you okay he’s gonna make
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and for 50 bucks i’ll help him well plus
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i’ll do it you’ll have so much money
it’ll seem like a bargain at that point
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bulavanaka shout out to tehran turks’s
mom and him as always i am i just can’t
wait i’m gonna go right into this this
guest is incredible you are going to
really enjoy this if you sit there and
go okay sure libertarians are getting
elected across the country but what’s
that actually mean are they actually
doing anything is there anything
happening there
why why would i keep supporting this if
i don’t even what are they doing they go
in there and they’re just they’re
libertarian but are they actually like i
wanted for a fight for liberty and
freedom and fight against tyranny
i don’t know why you sound like this but
you make a valid point
i think you won’t be asking that after
looking at this episode this is exactly
what happens uh this interview and the
things that we talk about are exactly
what happens when a libertarian gets
elected to office i don’t even know how
to intro this is just watch it this is
incredible i’m so happy check this out
folks my guest tonight is the elected
sheriff of santa cruz county arizona i’m
having him on to talk about some issues
that are happening locally in his area
many of which affect
our issues that affect the
entire country many other regions of the
country ladies and gentlemen my fellow
americans please welcome to the show
sheriff david hathaway david thanks so
much for coming on i really appreciate
you coming on yeah well thank you spike
for inviting me this is going to be an
interesting conversation i always enjoy
listening to your podcast
oh thank you i appreciate that and uh
and i am happy to have you on i can’t
wait to get into this folks uh if you
are tuning in be sure to uh ask me uh
your thoughts and or ask me and share
pathway give us your thoughts and
questions and we will tell you if you
are right or wrong uh now i am here i
will do that uh before we get started uh
i always ask people when they first come
on the show this is this is your first
time as a guest on the show what is it
that got you where you are right now
what was the was there an aha moment or
was it just a series of events that got
you to decide to take this path in life
um everyone has a genesis story tell us
the david hathaway story
well you know i grew up as a rancher as
a cowboy we still have ranching property
my family has been in ranching
since the 1800s in arizona since before
arizona became a state arizona became a
state in 1912 so kind of that
independent lifestyle just kind of you
know always wearing a gun riding around
on a horse uh you know it’s instilled in
me and a lot of that was from my dad you
know very uh
you know very practical person uh you
know you know believed in you know
and just once you know in that ranching
lifestyle um
helped with that what really cemented it
for me is i was a um
management with uh dea the drug
enforcement administration saw um you
know reagan’s drug war in south america
saw the the drug war throughout the
united states and just seeing the
futility of that you would think that
people would have learned those lessons
from alcohol prohibition that they would
that pattern repeating itself that
results in you know more laws and it
just continually expands
um so that that was kind of it for me
and then living here on the border i’ve
in in my county in arizona we have the
biggest ports of entry with mexico of
any county in arizona of the four
counties that border mexico and we have
the largest border patrol stations
uh the the biggest one in the united
states is in my county and the third
biggest one in the united states so i’ve
seen kind of a lot of the abuses the
police state that has developed along
the border the lack of any need for
probable cause or constitutional
protections against search and seizure
the fourth amendment being violated all
the time and kind of from seeing all
that talking about the aha moment seeing
all that the failed drug war and and the
kind of the abuses that happen along the
southern border um you know i wrote a
book talking about that subject and i
was fortunate enough to have scott
horton write the forward for it and and
will grig rest in peace wrote a blurb
for the for the back cover of that book
as well discussing this whole
crazy situation where uh cbp claims to
have a
a uh a a fourth amendment free zone
within a hundred miles of the border and
i get pulled over all the time you know
and i’m a big tall gringo you know six
and uh you know i don’t look hispanic or
anything but they give the same spiel to
me like i say why are you pulling me
over they say we don’t have to have any
reason uh we have extended border search
authority given to us by the supreme
court of the u.s anywhere within 100
miles of the international border we can
we can play over for any reason and we
can search your car for any reason and
detain you for any reason and
what’s funny spike is that uh two thirds
of the population of the us lives within
100 miles of the border you know you
look at los angeles miami new york uh
you know two-thirds you know 200 million
people of the 335 million people that
live in the us live within this
constitution free zone um
so i you know i i kind of i i kind of
butted heads with libertarians that want
to have state action
in the immigration sphere um and but in
every other sphere of life they want the
state to wither away they want voluntary
arrangements free enterprise private
interaction but in that one area i mean
there’s just a few libertarians very
vocal about this that they still want
the state involved in border enforcement
and immigration so that’s why i wrote
this book it’s a very niche book it’s
only kind of for libertarians that are
confused about the infighting
within the libertarian world of uh
like why do we still need the state
involved in border enforcement and
immigrations but we want it to go away
in in every other area so yeah that’s
kind of it of the sort of the aha moment
and sort of my progress my journey
towards uh
you know just thinking we only need to
have a voluntary society you know the
invisible hand of the market can solve
absolutely and this by the way and
as you mentioned that hundred mile zone
uh the reason that that two-thirds of
the population fit within that or live
within that 100 mile zone is as as you
said it’s along any border they call the
shoreline a border because it’s a border
with international waters so i live in
myrtle beach which is
i don’t know thousands of miles from any
at least a thousand miles from the
canadian border and more than that from
the mexican border and yet because i’m a
few blocks from the ocean the
technically border patrol or anyone they
deputize can
detain me
without any probable cause if all they
have to do is go to court afterwards and
say oh well this was because of uh
immigration enforcement this was a
national security issue for immigration
enforcement and it’s just it’s insane
and what kind of boggles my mind on all
this is if you have
say you have a state caused problem you
have a state cause problem as a
libertarian we shouldn’t propose another
state solution to a state cause problem
and a lot of people will talk about well
is there a welfare magnet
to to some people coming to the us even
though most of them are coming here to
work and they’re less likely to apply
for welfare benefits than native born
americans but still you know there’s
that argument okay well what we should
say is just end welfare in the state
program that’s causing a problem let me
give you an example of that if we go
back to the the era of alcohol
prohibition from 1920 to 1933 okay we
learned that that was a failed
disastrous effort but what did it result
it it resulted in the first gang
activity in the u.s the first drive-by
shootings in the u.s they all al capone
and all that sort of stuff so you know
what they did they said you know we need
another state program to solve the
problem caused by the first date program
and then we had the national firearms
act in 1934 remember alcohol prohibition
was from 1920 to 1933 there was a lot of
violence clashes between gangs and
police because when you drive an
industry underground um it’s going to
produce violent encounters violent
interactions which it did you had the
first drive-by shootings in the u.s the
first gang activity in the us that was
like violent you know
criminal on criminal or criminal on
police activity so the response to that
was they drafted the national firearms
act of 1934 and that’s when a lot of
kind of weapons became illegal uh full
automatic website weapons you know short
barreled rifles short belt shotguns and
they thought well we need another state
program to solve a problem caused by the
original state program so let’s let’s
fast forward to now the immigration
topic so you have let’s say a problem
that is maybe partly caused by state
activity by having welfare inducements
to immigrate the welfare inducements
would be things like
housing subsidies section 8 housing food
stamps free public schools free medical
you know things like that that are
welfare inducements to immigrate now
what you shouldn’t do is just say as a
libertarian if you’re going to be a
principled libertarian you shouldn’t say
philosophically that we need to have
another state program called cbp to
start pointing guns at people and
throwing people in jail what you should
do is get rid of the original state
program let me do another analogy like
when i
i was uh management in dea and the drug
enforcement administration um for you
know i worked in you know south america
for eight years i worked along the
border i worked in the midwest uh in
washington illinois missouri but we
noticed when i ran a drug task force in
illinois that
the welfare checks came in on the last
day of the month and there was a big
uptick in purchasing
drugs illegal drugs cocaine
methamphetamine heroin you know the old
saying idle hands is the devil’s
workshop so you subsidize people with uh
welfare payments and when the when the
welfare money came in when the checks
came in there was a big influx of
cocaine and methamphetamine that came
into the area because the drug dealers
smart entrepreneurs knew that there was
going to be a big up tech in in
purchasing in demand so you know you
could you could use that same logic from
the prohibition era and the firearms
laws you could say well
we noticed that when the welfare money
comes in there’s a lot more drug
distribution that that comes in
coincides with the welfare checks so you
know what you could say you could say
let’s create a drug war let’s create
state program let’s create something
like dea and drug task forces to go
after these people who are exchanging
substances because we noticed that the
first state program the welfare
subsidies are increasing the demand for
drugs so you could just say well how do
we solve that we don’t end the welfare
we make a drug war to go to go after all
the drug transactions that are happening
with the
the welfare money the welfare subsidies
so it doesn’t make any sense to me that
certain people and they’re they’re great
friends of mine and i interact with them
and i write articles for their websites
that they are anti-state in every other
aspect of their being but certain ones
of them want state enforcement they they
they want
guys to bust you in the head and point
guns at you and throw you in jail on
that one topic and you know if if you
wouldn’t mind um
me just uh reading a little bit out of
out of my book there and of course these
aren’t all all of them the the ones that
are this way are certain austrian
economists but by not by no means not
all austrian economic economist i
believe in austrian economics i think it
most fully and completely explains
explains how human action human beings
interact with each other but if you
would indulge me uh to read this this is
bob higgs
austrian economist who has lived in
mexico for years and he’s on the correct
side of the issue
he’s talking about this analogy where
people say you should you you can invite
or exclude anybody into your home so you
should be able to exclude anybody from a
whole nation state he says
with free entry by immigrants i would be
fully as justified and able to forbid
their entry into my home as i am to
forbid the entry of u.s citizens but i
do not own your home and should you wish
to invite albanians mongolians or
siberians into your home it is none of
my business and it would be an act of
sheer impudence for me or my alleged
agent the government of the usa to
interfere with your hospitality the
analogy between one’s home or other
private property and the territory of
the nation-state is not simply overdrawn
but it is stupid and he says
and equally stupid and utterly unworthy
of anyone calling himself a libertarian
or even more so an anarchist
is the claim that until complete
privatization is established over all
property in the country we can and
should as a second best resort support
the u.s or state government’s
enforcement of exclusionary laws so i
think he he nails it right on the head
there that yeah
if you’re an advocate for liberty or
anarchism you know voluntary
interactions then how can you possibly
say anything other than you know uh
get rid of the state one of one of my
favorite websites has in the tagline it
says anti-state you see that on
everything on the page
yet but some people say well we need the
state in
in this one area so which it’s kind of
doesn’t make sense to me
no it doesn’t and the thing is like the
the shorthand of it is saying look at
these sociopaths who created this
terrible problem
i demand that they come up with a way to
fix this problem not by getting rid of
the original pro but by creating a new
program surely they’ll be able to fix it
it doesn’t stand it doesn’t pass the
sniff test and it leads to and i’ve had
multiple debates where i’ve talked with
anarchy fellow anarchists fellow
libertarians who are in favor of border
enforcement and you know what i always
you know ask is
we see what this leads to we don’t have
estimate guesstimate what a government
enforcement of or state enforcement of a
border would look like we see what it
looks like it looks like everyone’s
rights being violated it looks like
raiding private workplaces and taking
out workers and then putting them in 800
a day cages which somehow is going to
solve the welfare state problem and and
you know it we see all of this we don’t
have to guess what it would look like
and if we say okay well well we don’t
want that but we we do want to be able
to decide who is allowed or not allowed
on our property or in our immediate
neighborhood of uh consenting uh
property owners okay great then advocate
for that don’t advocate for the state to
have this this fortress state authority
around us uh and and just as a side note
for those who are watching this
how much would you like to have your
sheriff quoting robert higgs on the
libertarian podcast i just want to start
that out next time i’m going to quote
hans hermann ahapa and bastiat next
you know listen
you know i i love papa everything that
he’s written you know democracy the god
that failed and all the other things in
rothbard but hapa is one of the persons
that is
kind of quoted and referred to as being
as advocating state enforced borders
which is really weird because in my book
like i said this is a really niche book
and it’s all about the austrian
perspective of looking at the
immigration and border enforcement
issues and it’s it’s called immigration
private versus national borders yes we
do have private borders around our own
property um but how can you have some
external influence like let’s call that
influence darth vader how can i like i
have ranch property right here near the
border so why can’t i invite mexicans to
either work or rent from me or something
like that onto my property because yeah
it’s my property i can exclude or invite
anybody i want but exactly what’s the
rationale for having a third party like
let’s call him darth vader that makes a
second border around my private property
borders and says no
i i am overriding your ability to invite
or exclude whoever you want i’m saying
you can’t invite these persons in and
since i mentioned hapa is one of the
ones that people refer to on this issue
as um being in favor of the enforced
borders on on everything else he’s
really good and if you use his own logic
against him like let me quote some
things like he says that
any talk of society as an actor is
meaningless this isn’t just his general
writings not on the immigration topic
talk he says only individuals act any
talk about society as an actor is
meaningless so how can you speak of what
all of society should want in the realm
of border enforcement or
ipads or what kind of tennis shoes you
want to buy or what kind of food you eat
or anything else that’s a central
planning that’s a collectivist a
technocratic mindset that you need a
technocratic elite to make macro
economic decisions for the whole society
rather than having microeconomic
decisions being made by individuals like
what austrian economists called
subjective preferences you don’t know
what the preferences are going to be of
each individual until you let them act
then you can see their demonstrated
preference but you know hapa on all
other areas he says
you know any talk about society as an
actor is meaningless you can never talk
about what society wants like you can
never talk about what a whole nation
wants only individuals act and he says
um that you cannot aggregate aggregate
the utility of what society wants he
any talk about
adding up the sensations of different
individuals is to engage in an entirely
meaningless exercise so how can you say
that everybody in a country say the
united states
doesn’t want
mexicans or albanians or nigerians to
either come you know uh live on your
land and or rent rent a house from you
or marry your daughter or you employ
them or or whatever you can’t say that
universally a hundred percent of the
people in
in society um you know don’t want people
to come visit them on their property
from some certain other
country or culture so you’re overriding
the the will of the individual and
that’s kind of the fallacy of democracy
you know is that you get somebody a
technocrat or a majority or somebody or
voters to overrule the will of
individual peoples and exactly and and
if i can refer to another thing that uh
that hopper talks about i’m not sure
spike if you’ve heard of the pareto test
the pareto test of social welfare you
have pareto superior pareto infer
inferior and pareto optimality what it
is in economics terms because this this
book of mine dissects how this is wrong
economists libertarian economists that
use this argument they’re wrong there’s
a transaction called a
pareto superior transaction that means
if two people voluntarily exchange
something and at least one person
benefits that’s called a pareto superior
transaction now if
uh one person is harmed and the other
person is is not harmed that’s called a
pareto inferior uh test now the ideal is
pareto optimality that means both people
in the transaction both sides of the
transaction benefit from the transaction
so if we apply that test that hapa
applies and other things he’s written
the pareto test of social welfare if you
look at the the in the um
the state involvement along the border
prohibiting work transactions uh
cultural visits
family visits
permitting restricting people from
inviting people onto their property from
some other country well that is clearly
violated the pareto optimality test
that’s a pareto inferior transaction at
least one side of that intervention has
been harmed when cbp says you can’t
visit your family member in the u.s or
you can’t work for this person in the
u.s so i know i’m kind of getting into
the weeds there and that’s why this book
that i wrote is a niche book it’s only
for people who really can’t understand
the feud between libertarians on this
topic like why don’t we just get the
state out of all aspects of our life and
and this analyzes it from the
perspective of austrian economics
and so it’s you know somewhat of a i
guess you could say a dry book a very
niche book but i wanted to refute this
and as i was exploring this what murray
rothbard wrote on this what heinz herman
hoppa wrote on this
as i did the personal exploration and
read a lot of things and made a lot of
notes i thought well i’m going to turn
it into a book because i was doing it to
inform myself but maybe other people
would be interested in in the arguments
and the fallacies
yeah absolutely and what is the name of
that book
um it’s called
and the subtitle is
individual versus national borders so
you can get it on amazon or anything
else and if you email me a mailing
address spike i’ll send you one i should
have sent you one before this but it’s
an ebook form or print form you can get
it on amazon but i’ll mail you
if you i would love that i can’t i can’t
i can’t wait to read that so it’s called
immigration individual versus national
borders and invite by david hathaway and
so um yeah no listen you have no
argument for me this has been an endless
thing i’ve i’ve had actually one of the
when i was transitioning away from being
a conservative to a libertarian several
years ago the last statist bugaboo boo
that i had to let go was border
enforcement this uh
not even ration-based idea well they at
the very least need to protect our
they’re not ours they’re theirs and uh
they’re the ones choosing what’s being
enforced and why do they have to and i i
realized after a while any of the
arguments i had for why i no longer
actually believed because i was now a
libertarian i didn’t believe that we
needed government to uh protect us i
didn’t believe that we had needed
government uh if you really are foreign
you have to believe that the market can
provide solutions for everything and i
can tell you spike about a big risk that
people don’t know about a big risk of
the build the wall mentality build the
wall like you know it’s kind of funny
that republicans have flip-flop-flopped
on this if you go back 25-30 years ago
you can have ronald reagan making a
speech in front of the brandenburg gate
at the berlin wall iron curtain saying
mr gorbachev tear down this wall you say
that you are emerging from totalitarian
totalitarianism you’re emerging into
freedom prove it tear down this wall
because walls are symbols of you know
you know of uh you know
dishonoring private enterprise and
interaction so let me tell you something
that’s happening down here that your
viewers probably don’t know about but i
live right here on the border um
not only keep people out but they keep
you in like in the east germans notice
that they couldn’t leave east germany
you had to stay in your tyrannical thing
and you think no but that wouldn’t
happen here no it’s already happened ten
years ago there was a pilot project in
my town and i have the biggest ports of
entry with mexico here in my county in
santa cruz county arizona a pilot
project where cbp officers began
standing in the southbound lanes in the
outbound lanes searching cars leaving
the united states going into mexico
interviewing people taking money taking
possessions as people left the u.s so
you saw that happening in east germany
but people think well
that that wouldn’t happen in the u.s
well you know when you make walls and
you restrict the access points to the
other country i mean those those access
points are also a safety valve to get
away from tyranny and there’s a lot of
expatriates that move from the united
states to mexico to mazatlan guymus
san carlos different places south of
here where they can get a nice house
very affordable live on the ocean but
they want to take their stuff with them
or some people keep a house in the us
and a house in mexico
and you know so they can have that
escape if everything if if things get so
bad here but now when you’re exporting
your wealth your gold coins your money
they are and and that started as a pilot
project 10 years ago now they have built
permanent structures in the southbound
lanes where officers are continually
fully staffed not just a pilot project
searching cars leaving the us and
seizing money under civil asset
forfeiture not charging you with a crime
where did you get this money prove that
this is legitimate money prove that this
is not money from drug trafficking and
so they’ll take it and then it’s up to
the individual to file what’s called a
claim and cost bond to actually prove
that the legitimate source come up with
tax records or pay stubs or something to
show that the money is legitimate
they’ll take the money and not charge
you with a crime and just let you go on
your way and i’m gonna i’m just gonna
talk about something that i was just
interviewed on on the local media
you won’t be able to see this article
but i’m going to hold it up here it says
gate gate crashing wreaks havoc on
mexico-bound traffic at mariposa so what
is this
this is an event that i had to do a lot
of interviews with that the cars going
into mexico are being stopped and
searched by u.s officials before they go
into mexico and having money and assets
taken away from them
and just turned loose and not charged
with a crime a car
crashed through the gate going into
mexico where the u.s officials had put
up a gate barring traffic from going
into mexico so they could search cars
one at a time this individual crashes
through the gate breaks the gate off its
hinges and then
all the cb people descend on this
individual like you know he’s the worst
criminal in the world for just wanting
to enter a foreign country but the u.s
doesn’t want to let him leave the u.s
until he searched so when i was a kid
and i grew up here i was born in the
same town on the border that would be
unheard of you know and and
you could at the very least leave the
country between the borders you know all
it was back when i was a kid was a
four-strand barbed wire cattle fence
just a livestock fence between the us
and mexico you could just walk across
the fence and go into mexico but if they
succeed in building an impenetrable wall
along the border your only option for
leaving will be to go through these
ports of entry where they’re now
the cars and the people leaving the u.s
so if you didn’t think that could happen
if you thought that’s something of east
germany that’s happening now that’s one
of the things negative outcomes of walls
they not only keep people out but they
keep americans in or they keep people in
the country
exactly and that’s i mean it’s a funny
thing about walls is that uh they apply
the the the laws of physics work both
ways and especially when there are
people there with guns making sure that
you uh that you uh stop at the at the
entry and exit points um
i am i’m glad to see to have you on
because uh one of my my biggest things
that i’ve been trying to say to
libertarians you know we focus a lot on
like the white house somewhere that we
it’s something that we really uh you
know we’re not in a position to really
be able to try to contend for uh and
we’ll focus on like running for governor
running for senate and things like that
by the way i say this as someone who ran
for vice president in 2020 but i did so
understanding what that role was it was
to help bring people into the
libertarian party it was to help bring
people into a libertarian message it was
to use that as a platform for talking
about libertarianism i recognized it for
what it was but having
liberty-minded people having voluntarius
having anarchists having libertarians
that are running for sheriff
you are now
uh correct me if i’m wrong you’re now
the top elected uh law enforcement
official in your county is that correct
that’s correct and there’s no other
elected law enforcement officials you
can’t get rid of your local police chief
he’s appointed all the heads of the
federal agencies are all appointed and
the sheriff was the only one that
existed in law enforcement at the
founding of this country there was no
police departments there was a guy named
robert peel who started the first
quote-unquote police department in
england in london and then that was
replicated in the u.s in new york city
and chicago and now it’s gone all across
the u.s but in the beginning of this
country it was just the sheriff which is
a common law tradition brought over from
that that is the officer of the court
when a judge decides anything in a civil
matter or a criminal ladder matter it’s
to the up to the sheriff to be the arms
and legs of the court to actually
implement his seizure his orders in a
tangible world like if you said you’re
gonna buy a guy’s mule for a hundred
dollars he gives you the meal you never
pay him the hundred dollars they go to
the judge the judge gives a writ of
execution to the sheriff and he goes and
retrieves the mule and returns it to the
rightful owner but yeah you know um i
just gave joe jorgensen a tour of the
border um and you know and i’ve talked
to to her and other libertarian groups
just went to a tom woods event up in las
about how one of the silver linings
spike from the last two years of all the
mandates and the tyranny over the last
two years one of the silver linings is i
think people have lost all faith in
national level politics they know that
doesn’t matter if it’s democrat or
republican national level politics you
can’t look those people in the face
they’ll say one thing during their
campaign and then do something
completely different
you know when their office like i had
joe jorgensen over to our ranch house
when you know when she was down here and
we talked over all this stuff so um yeah
like i think
if you’re gonna have any faith in
politics which i don’t have any faith in
politics but if you’re gonna have faith
in politics it needs to be at the local
level and the sheriff is the only guy
where the rubber meets the road that you
can actually look him in the face and
chew him out and if he won’t talk to you
or if he hides from you you can throw
him out of office all these other police
departments they’re appointed like when
i was in the dea those are appointed
positions when i was the office head in
different places around the world and
the same with cbp or fbi or anything
else you can’t expect those people to be
accountable and they won’t talk to you
like you know what’s a funny thing spike
here is
um one of the biggest surprises of me
being sheriff i’ve been sheriff for a
year and i’m replacing the longest
serving sheriff in arizona so
everybody and their brother wanted to
run there are six candidates but i’ve
just finished my first year being
sheriff one of the biggest surprises is
all the media interviews some
weeks i do over 20 interviews a week
with all the major national networks and
i speak spanish so i do on the spanish
networks to telemundo and univision the
biggest surprise is
they don’t want to talk anything about
what i do in the county they want me to
talk about federal issues the border
immigration and all that kind of stuff
you know why is because
um the the the management in the federal
agencies won’t do media interviews and
that’s by policy
they can’t just go to cbp or ice
homeland security dea and do a media
interview because they all have a policy
to refer refer any media request to the
public information officer that’s either
in washington or in a regional office in
phoenix so it’s actually given me the
opportunity i never knew this would
happen but i’ve kind of become the de
facto spokesman for border issues and
i’ve memorized all the statistics the
apprehension statistics and everything
yeah yeah just because
the federal officials won’t talk to them
and they’re all federal issues and i’m a
county sheriff so those are not my
issues but i wind up speaking on it
because i want to be transparent and i
don’t want to tell people no i’m not
going to talk to you because it looks
like you have something to hide so it’s
kind of i’ve fallen into that role just
because the feds won’t talk to the media
about border stuff
i love it and you’re a sheriff on the
border so who better to talk to right i
love it i love it so obviously i mean
just the fact that you’re doing that on
a day-to-day basis is probably doing
more to spread liberty than 99.9 percent
of us will ever do i i wanted to talk
with you about uh the covet restrictions
because you were elected uh i you said
it for about a year so you were elected
right around the time that the coveted
restrictions were hitting or i guess
maybe just after or yeah well no my
campaign was when everybody had done
here we had they had done
mandates where you know you know shut
down businesses and you had to wear a
mask and all these kind of things so
that was right when i was heavy in my
campaign i did a real
uh you know down to earth knocking on
doors campaign my wife went with me she
wrote thousands of letters to everybody
we talked to so right in the middle of
that and they had just enacted a mask
mandate and they did a candidate for him
and just tell you a little antidote for
all the sheriffs all the candidates
running for sheriff and the moderator
was the chief superior court judge
for the county so he asked questions
that people submitted on facebook and i
knew it was inevitably going to get to
the question about the mask mandate
since the sheriff enforces the law and
all the other candidates got the
question before me um and they each had
one minute to respond and they all said
yep ultimately i’ll charge people i’ll
arrest them i’ll you know i will require
them to wear a mask so they got to me
and so then the judge was the moderator
asked me okay
david hathaway will you enforce the mask
rule if somebody doesn’t want to wear a
mask and i said no i mean people may
have health concerns at that point there
had already been studies showing where
they’d put mask under microscopes and
they would you know have like multiple
mold colonies and bacteria colonies and
you’re breathing in those things there
had been examples of people operating
heavy equipment who had gotten
you know lethargy from hypoxia or
reduced oxygen intake and they had
they had crashed vehicles there had been
incidents of people operating heavy
machinery that had been wearing mass so
i was able to cite some of those things
and i also said
talk about the constitutional issues too
um that at that same time the our county
board of supervisors had said you can’t
get together with 10 or more people
without permission from the county board
of supervisors and they weren’t giving
any permission so i made the point
during that forum that that clearly
violates the first amendment freedom of
assembly freedom of religion all the
churches had shut down to say that you
can’t get together with other people so
the local media just went nuts on me um
they tried to crucify me on this our
local paper wrote a big hit piece on me
saying how i’m all wrong and messed up
and mess there’s no indication that
master could be harmful and everyone
should comply with this um you know and
and it’s funny like that article set the
record for the number the most online
comments for their paper they usually
get no comments or maybe one or two
comments but there was over 300 comments
uh you know became a very contentious
issue and then you know what people told
me spike they said after that you just
cost yourself the campaign you just shot
yourself in the foot you should have
gone on the bandwagon you should go with
that flow you just cost yourself the
election by opposing the mandates and
then lo and behold election day comes
and i not only won by a landslide i had
four times as many votes as the guy who
came in second place remember multiple
candidates the guy who had came in
second place i had four times as many
votes as him and when people told me
you’re going to lose the election for
going against the mandates
i told them well if the voters are that
dumb that they’re going to vote against
me for that then i should lose you know
but i think people aren’t going to get
mad at me for standing up for their
freedoms and then fast forward a little
bit my first month in office was january
and i knew this whole idea of vaccine
passports was just around the corner so
i studied up on the law on that and sure
enough when i was in office two weeks in
january mid-january i got a call from
the county attorney saying um hey hey
sheriff do you want to make it mandatory
for everybody in your agency that they
have to take the shot as a condition of
their employment and fortunately i had
researched all the legal aspects of this
and i said no i’m going to abide by the
legal principle of informed consent and
the american with americans with
disabilities act and hipaa which is the
health insurance portability and
accountability act they both have
provisions medical privacy provisions
where you can’t inquire about anybody’s
medical decisions and you can’t compel
them to do anything and of course the
nuremberg code indicates those same
things so they said okay fine then
you’ll save us the trouble of they said
we will write this up for you we’ll
write up the legal documents to make it
mandatory as a condition of employment
with the sheriff’s office if you want to
do that and i said no and that’s one of
the things i’m proud of that that set a
precedent here because the way the
vaccinations were rolled out in arizona
they were rolled out in three phases and
one of the first phases was what they
call you know law enforcement first
responders firefighters so everybody was
looking at me and when i said no
the local fire departments and the
police department
saw my example and they went along with
it and then i got a call from one of our
county board of supervisors upset with
this trend that i was causing and saying
do you know that less than 50 percent of
the officers in the local police
department are not vaccinated and he
said i demand to know how many people in
your organization are vaccinated and i
told him i have no idea because i’m not
allowed to ask that i’m not allowed to
ask people’s private medical decisions
so yeah i fought the battle on mask and
on the the vaccine mandates and
fortunately i think
like i said to toot my own horn a little
bit i think i set some good precedence
that other people followed in this area
exactly and the thing is they’re mad at
you about the low adoption rate uh for
the vaccine but that’s the actual people
who wanted to get vaccinated because you
didn’t say you’re required to do this
you’re gonna lose your job bad things
are gonna happen to you so when people
are trumpeting high vaccination numbers
and saying this is proof that people
want the vaccine mandate no that
compared to areas where it’s not
mandated that difference are the number
of people who have been forced and
threatened and coerced into getting
vaccinated which is why so many
vaccinated people don’t so even those
who voluntarily chose to get vaccinated
wanted to get vaccinated we’re happy to
get vaccinated are against these
mandates so i no i think it’s great and
frankly when you’re in a you know just
looking at this politically when you’re
in a debate with six people and all of
them say yes
to something and you say no to something
or all of them say no to something and
you say yes to something
typically what happened was you actually
probably ensured that you were gonna get
elected if for no other reason then the
yes the people that supported yes are
being split out over six different
candidates you are the no i you you
solidified yourself and you know this as
the i’m not going to make you do things
you don’t want to do candidate which
yeah for whatever portion of the
population you now had that locked down
yeah and then you know there’s no they
say there’s a saying there’s no such
thing as bad publicity and you’re right
i never came down and said
i am against you wearing a mask my
position is it’s your decision i’m not
against you getting vaccinated it’s your
decision it’s your body you have bodily
autonomy you have personal sovereignty
over yourself as a you know a self-owned
individual you know so you’re right i
didn’t say
you’re you’re a lunatic and you’re wrong
and i and and and i i oppose you wearing
a mask but the problem is spike i
noticed here is most of the people that
wore masks
if you talk to them they didn’t really
believe in it they just were going along
to getting to get along you know they
just want to keep their hang uh head
down and not make any waves not cause
any problems and i was on uh
mark victor’s podcast he’s attorneys for
freedom kind of a freedom advocate an
attorney and he he asked me the question
he said well
what about private businesses that want
to mandate a mass to enter their
business are you in favor of that and i
told them old yeah absolutely but
there’s a lie in there because all of
the mask mandates here in arizona and
the occupancy mandates they all said
they all had included in it if you’re
going to be open you have to have a sign
on your business that says mask required
to enter so you go around seeing all
these private businesses with a mask
required sign on the outside what you
don’t know is because most people didn’t
the the mask mandate order like we had
one at the city level and at the county
level here and i read both of both of
them and they even had a little template
in there that you could print out a
little sign that you could print out it
says you can use this one or you can put
up your own sign button
if you’re going to be open during this
period you have to have a sign that says
mass required to enter so i explained to
mark victor yeah if it’s legitimate if
the owner really wants you to wear a
mask if that’s his market his preference
he may lose business he may gain
business in the free market but if it’s
legitimate what he wants but i told him
you have to realize mark that here and
he’s in arizona he’s in the phoenix area
said if you read these mandates they
require the business owner to have that
sign requiring a mask and if you don’t
know that you will think all these
private businesses want you to wear a
mask but they had to do it to be open
exactly and that that creates this uh
illusion of popular uh consent for
something when it’s the literal opposite
they’re being forced to do something a
similar dynamic with segregation uh
during the uh in the in the especially
coming into the 1950s and 1960s in the
south the reason that they were having
to so brutally enforce uh those
restrictions those those segregation
restrictions particularly the uh
requirement that that whites and and
non-whites be separated is because an
increasing number of businesses didn’t
care they’re like yeah i don’t care who
comes here and so it was actually the
fact that the state was having to
enforce that exactly that was becoming
less and less possible and i i mentioned
that in my book i in my book i talk
about the whole rosa parks situation
that that wasn’t
private bus companies wanting black
people to sit in the back of the bus
those were
ordinances and requirements that said
that because the private market will
solve those problems if there’s a demand
the market will will meet the demand
they won’t just automatically exclude
all people black people to the back of
the bus there would be companies that
welcome them to sit wherever they want
on the bus if you let the market do it
and but the market wasn’t allowed to
function but people if you look at the
typical kind of leftist argument about
the deep south and the restrictions
they’ll say that the individuals the
businesses were prejudiced and you know
and and wanted to hold black people down
but if you look at it it’s always the
state it’s the same thing with fugitive
slave laws in the north slavery would
have fallen apart by itself you know
without any kind of a civil war as it
did in many other parts of the world if
we didn’t have fugitive slave laws
in the north you know in the you know
mid 1800s and the 1860s if we didn’t
have these laws that says if there’s a
fugitive slave that arrives in the north
they have to be returned to their
rightful owner um that’s that’s a
government imposed mandate now if you
didn’t have those government import post
mandates a slave could go to another
non-slave area and could work there and
there would be no way to you know
repatriate that person to an owner in
another state so it was actually a
government keeping slavery going where
it would have fallen apart on its own if
there hadn’t been those like fugitive
slave laws
exactly exactly and it wouldn’t have led
to the government simply moving chattel
slavery from the private sector to the
bureau of prisons but that’s a whole
other subject um i i i uh something came
up here that um that i wanted to ask you
about and it is in arizona it’s an
executive order signed by the governor
by governor ducey called the enhanced
surveillance advisory can you tell us
about this what what is this and how
does this oh there it is yeah i’m
showing it to you right here it is
it is the creepiest thing spike that you
you can imagine like um we have one of
these two-faced governors that wanted to
take the cares act money and the
american rescue plan money but he made a
deal with the devil there’s strings
attached and
to so to take all this money he has to
advertise uh through state mechanisms
like highway signs and whatnot to tell
everybody to take the shot
but there’s a string attached if you
take that cares act money then he is
required to share back to the cdc and
hhs all the vaccination data for um
you know for anybody who gets the shot
and it’s required every 20 and every 24
hours so the way he did it
he did this really
creepy executive order called uh
that’s called the uh enhanced
surveillance advisory and
usually when they have like a creepy
draconian thing they’ll name it some
euphemistic name like the patriot act or
the rainbows and puppy dogs act you know
something that sounds harmless but he
actually named it for you know exactly
what it is and in here
he says that um you can’t even opt out
of this and this is a republican
governor that wanted to take all the
money and tell everybody that they
should get the shots and they should
wear a mask but at the same time he
wanted to stay out of the other side of
his mouth depending on who he’s talking
to that he’s against mandates but here’s
what it says in here uh in this is from
from ducey’s thing uh
that the cdc and hhhs
will receive covet 19 immunization and
administration information through the
immunization gateway project every 24
the following information must be
provided of all vaccinated individuals
the individual’s name date of birth
residential address phone number and
vaccine priority drug group so he’s
requiring that it be shared with the cdc
and homeland security i mean hhs health
and human services every 24 hours and
then really funny part is on the last
part here he says that
you can’t opt out there’s a medical
privacy law in arizona which i also have
printed out here because he
he mentions that medical privacy law he
let me let me read you where he says you
can’t opt out such information sharing
may be permitted regardless of whether
any individual has opted out of having
their individually identifiable health
information accessible
through the health information
organization pursuant to arizona revised
36-3803 so he’s saying even if you use
the medical privacy statute in arizona
which is this
section 36
title 36 section 3803
even if you do that and what does that
say it says an individual has the right
to opt out of having his individually
identifiable health information
accessible through a health information
organization by providing notice
as explained in the health information
organization’s notice of health
information practices so he said even if
you take advantage of that state law in
arizona that says
you have the right to opt out because
you have 100 of anything autonomy over
your own health 100 health privacy under
that arizona law 36-3803
ducey says right here that you know uh
you cannot opt out even under that
provision why because the deal he made
with the devil the strings that is
attached to getting that cares act money
is that he has to
share he has to populate this national
database and you know not to get too
much into the conspiracy theory angles
of this but you can see where that’s
going through spike they found a health
issue they found a way to create a
national database or a social credit
score so if anybody can succeed in
making a digital currency rather than
just you know allowing cash transactions
to continue
this is a way
that they are creating this national
credit score any governor that took this
money is required by the cdc as one of
the strings attached to share every 24
hours all the vaccine data not just
generic generic data not what they would
call metadata but your actual date of
birth your address your phone number
required to share all that personal
information about you so i mean people
talk about you know in the future like
you know um you know social credit score
digital currency you know people will
talk about the mark of the beast and you
know you can’t unless you have your
pre-approved you know number code you’re
not going to be allowed to buy or sell
or trade or anything like that and you
wonder like how would they accomplish
that well this is how they accomplish
that and governor ducey a republican
governor just did this right out in the
open through executive order it was done
different ways in different states but
the bottom line is any state that took
that money has to share this information
with the feds
and the thing is you know for those who
are thinking yeah well i mean this is a
vaccination thing and maybe they’re
going too far with this and they broke
their own rules but to go to that next
step of saying this is going to be it
could potentially be used to create a
greater or wider database and and use it
as a social credit score system
if you’re doubting this
you don’t understand how government
works government creates the thing using
this pretext and now they have this and
this is their baseline of power and then
through mission creep it just keeps
growing so they already have this
database it’s it’s implemented in in all
or most of the 50 states already they
already have a good sizable percentage
of the population in it it is not that
much for them to go you know we could
have we already have this database
that’s being updated every 24 hours it’s
got everyone’s address it’s got
everyone’s name on it it’s got all their
information it’s got it’s even got their
vaccination information we could just
start requiring that everything is on
and requiring that everyone be on it
it’s already all the uh uh the mechanism
and infrastructure has already been put
in place through the cares act and the
uh yeah and they could sell it as
something that makes life easier that it
makes it easier for you to file your
taxes because they know what you bought
if it was digital currency which i think
is the next step
then they could see where you spent
money or if there’s something like sales
tax or value-added tax or income tasks
tax or a businessman
talking about expense deductions to
offset his income all of it would be
right there and they said oh there’d be
a lot easier you know you wouldn’t have
to do as much record keeping for
auditing and whatnot but the other side
of the coin is they could just shut it
off and say no you’re
you’re a criminal or you have illegal
income you’re a drug dealer that income
you have is not legitimately obtained
you should not be able to spend that to
buy a
ferrari or a corvette or you bought this
house over here and if you used your
digital currency then they could
calculate the capital gains tax when the
government inflates the money and
devalues the money they can call that a
windfall for you when your house that’s
still worth the same
in relation to other tangible goods like
gold silver or a bag of potatoes it’s
still worth the same but in inflated
currency it’s worth a lot more and then
they could capture and take that capital
gains from you just because every
transaction went through a digital
network i know it’s something the state
would really want to do it’s not a
fantasy or a conspiracy concept that
would allow them to snoop on every
transaction and they’re they’re already
upset that there’s cash transactions you
go to the swap meet you go to the flea
market you buy a guy’s car you buy a gun
you buy whatever you buy raw milk that’s
not been patched pasteurized like the
government wants you to do and you can
still get away with it now but if they
could clamp down on that and i think
hopefully americans are smart enough to
push back at that point but frankly
spike i i’ve been kind of disappointed
in in our fellow americans because i
live in a big western state and these
western states have the reputation of
being pioneers and frontiersmen and the
land of the free and the home of the
brave and i looked around me and
everybody just cowered and went along
with this they shut down their
businesses they shut down their churches
they started wearing the mask and there
was in most cases there wasn’t a guy
pointing a gun at you making you do it
it was all self-imposed and i was like
disappointed like what happened to this
rugged individualism you know like and
especially out here in the west these
big western states where they have this
reputation for you know freedom and the
cowboy mentality the frontier mentality
all the john wayne movies that were made
out here in this county that i live in
and i was disappointed that just people
caved in with you know not even a
whimper and it’s kind of funny speaking
of churches a lot of the churches in
this area did a lot of big talk and
bluster before 2020 came along that said
you know they’re never gonna shut us
down they’re never gonna stop us from
following god in some foreign oppressive
countries they’re not allowed to meet
and get together that will never happen
to us they’ll have to drag us out of
here and yet they all shut down they all
they all just willingly shut down and
think well you know we don’t want to
violate social distance and so you know
the first amendment just went out of the
window but these churches around here
that would talk about how brave they are
and that you know they’re the last stand
against tyranny no when the tyranny came
they just all caved in and shut down
yeah and that’s the problem and it’s
it’s it is a cult and i talk a lot about
this um
to pretend that we’re going to get
libertarians elected to office by
tricking everyone in a debate and and we
say the thing and then we get elected
and we trickle down liberty on ever they
will immediately demand that we do that
the people that we replaced did because
that’s what they know because we don’t
have a culture of liberty in this
country certainly not anymore maybe in
pockets maybe in certain uh subcultures
and in different communities and things
like that and certainly in the
value-based community that is the
liberty movement but by and large we
don’t have that yeah and so that’s
exactly i want to go go ahead no that’s
exactly what i told angela mcardle last
week she’s running for kind of under the
mises caucus the chair of the lnc
libertarian national committee and i
told her like um look you know
politics is not the answer there’s the
political method and there’s the
economic method the political method is
fraud coercion and theft the economic
method is voluntary transactions that’s
what we want but
i told her since kind of people have
lost faith in national politics maybe if
you get this position as the lnc chair
you should encourage candidates to file
for every position if it’s dog catcher
city council everything not so that they
can win and use a club a billy club over
the head of their neighbor but so that
they can have the media platform to talk
about liberty because i know here in my
area if you just file the papers to be a
candidate even if you don’t spend any
money on your campaign all the media
outlets will give you free pet press the
local paper will give you a full page to
talk about your issues and what’s
important to you the uh the tv stations
will feature you so you’re doing it not
to win the position like let’s say you
did when the position will fine you can
you can abide by the principles of
liberty you can go against all the
coercive government stuff exactly the
purpose is not really to get the
political victory but if you if you file
candidates for all these positions you
can at least get that soap box that
bully pulpit the media platform where
you can start talking about voluntary
exchanges and the advantage of
volunteerism rather than coercive
oh actually absolutely 100 and if they
are elected like you were then they can
actually put their ideas into practice
on the political sphere of saying no i’m
not going to do anything about that i’m
not i’m going to let leave you and trust
you to to fix that and i’m not going to
put you in a cage over it so i wanted to
end up by talking about uh the concept
of nullification and in my mind there
are kind of two main
forms of nullification obviously there’s
jury nullification which is a juror
being able to to decide
i don’t know or care
if the person in front of me is guilty
of the crime that they’re being accused
of committing i might even think that
they did it but i don’t think that
should be a crime i don’t think it’s
just that it’s a crime so i’m simply
going to vote not guilty but there’s
also nullification that can happen at
different levels of government probably
one of the most uh
explosive and successful examples has
been the increasing decriminalization
legalization of both recreational and
medical cannabis despite the fact that
at the federal level it is still every
bit as illegal as it was in the 1960s
70s when the war on drugs started it’s
still the same level of of uh uh was it
schedule one it’s still at the highest
level of illegality and yet the majority
of americans live in either a city
county or state where it is at least
partially legal to consume marijuana in
some way now we’re seeing now uh uh
immigration sanctuary states we’re
seeing uh um second amendment sanctuary
states we’re seeing this growth it’s
often as a result of uh partisan anger
at the president who’s in charge at the
federal level whatever whatever it takes
we’re seeing that there is this kind of
popular movement uh in in many cases
we’re seeing defend the guard
legislation is becoming more and more
popular i wanted to get your thoughts on
that on
the activism
i agree with you that tip it’s the
market is going to get us out of this i
think largely blockchain is going to get
us out of this or i should say get us
out of this but a lot of our solutions
are going to be found in the market and
it’s going to be a no-brainer that
that’s a better solution than anything
that’s going to come from the political
sphere but from a uh i guess a defensive
or harm reduction standpoint in the
political sphere what are your thoughts
on uh using nullification as a means of
of kind of hedging in uh at the federal
and state level the the tyrannical laws
that they’re trying to impose
yeah there’s a great question spike
there’s a mistaken concept out there
that the courts the judiciary are the
final arbiters of everything that
whatever they say whatever the supreme
court says that’s the last word on the
subject but it was never intended to be
that way with the balance of powers of
the executive branch the judicial branch
and the legislative branch each one of
them has the ability to nullify an
unconstitutional edict or proclamation
of the other one like for example
say that that
there’s some illegal proclamation about
guns about gun control that violates the
second amendment even if it comes from
the supreme court even if it comes from
the executive branch can still say no
that’s unconstitutional
i’m not going to enforce that like i did
with the mask mandates and the and the
occupancy restrictions violated the
first amendment freedom of assembly but
people don’t know that ever since
marbury versus madison it’s kind of
grown to the point where everyone thinks
judiciary has a final word on this these
they’re the arbiters of
constitutionality but no the legislature
can override what the judiciary does if
the judiciary says you can’t do this or
you must do that or you have to bus
bus children from this district to that
district whatever they say
the legislature can override that and
say no
we can rein you in just like you think
you can rein us in and then ultimately
the executive branch doesn’t have to
enforce something from the legislative
branch or the judicial branch but yeah
you’re exactly right and i i have done
that you know and i have stood up to
things that that have come in from other
levels of government this isn’t exactly
along the lines of what you’re saying
but for example here in this state
um the national guard i mean i mean the
governor ducey
has tried to
you know he is term limited so he’s
leaving the governor position he’s had
two terms there and he plans to run for
president so what’s his strategy he
wants to be exactly like donald trump
talk of everything like donald trump the
border the border the wall the wall the
board of the border so
even if it’s not merited even if there’s
not like my crime rates down here in my
county are lower here on the border than
the crime rates in tucson and in phoenix
and lower than the average for
uh the whole state of arizona very
family family-oriented people
just soft-spoken hard-working people
and i feel much i got nine children’s
bike and i feel much happier my children
walking around in my community on the
border at night than if they were in
tucson or phoenix but back to the
nullification thing that governor said
i’m going to declare an emergency on the
border the federal government has not
declared an emergency on the border but
i’m going to declare an emergency on the
border and i’m going to send the
national guard i’m going to militarize
the border send troops to the border
guys in camouflage humvees army
equipment i’m going to militarize the
and i knew that our local merchants were
opposed to that kind of idea making this
into east germany and militarizing the
border troops in the streets guys on the
corner standing with machine guns so i
got a call from the
the general in charge of all the
national guard forces in arizona saying
look governor ducey wants me to call you
and ask how many national guard troops
do you want in your county because i’m
the chief law enforcement officer for
the county so i can say no or i can say
yes and i told him no i don’t want any i
don’t want any national guard troops
this county here and it was what it was
governor ducey trying to make points uh
political points so he can run for
president saying that he’s opposing
biden biden is saying oh we don’t have
an emergency on the border but ducey is
saying yes we do so i was able to
maybe the word nullification isn’t
proper in this context but i was able to
say no
and stand up for something that i knew
that would do harm for our community it
would dissuade tourism it would hurt the
local merchants hurt business a lot of
people like to come to the border and
shop and whatnot so
i i said no to that and one of the other
well two of the other sheriffs said yes
and then another one of the border
sheriffs there’s four border sheriffs
four border counties said no also and
this is governor ducey was going to
charge the arizona taxpayers for this
deployment of the national guard in most
cases of an emergency a hurricane an
if the governor activates the national
guard he can get reimbursed by the
federal government because the federal
government will declare a parallel
emergency to fit the state declared
emergency but governor ducey said no
we’re going to just the taxpayers of
arizona are going to pay for this uh
many tens of millions of dollars to
militarize the border not knowing what
he’s talking about that we have very
calm low crime communities in my county
along the border so
like i said maybe that’s not a perfect
example of nullification but it was my
ability to stand up to something that
another branch of government another
aspect of government was trying to
impose on me just like i did with the
it is actually a very good example of
nullification in that well first of all
you were choosing to nullify you know
what what he was trying to implement in
your in your county but also it was the
act of electing you as sheriff that was
an act of nullification against
if i’m if i’m in your county and i vote
for you a sheriff which i 100 would i i
know voting for you doesn’t just mean
after hearing what you have to say
doesn’t just mean i don’t have to worry
about mass mandates or vaccine mandates
i know that across the board when
something is tyrannical when it is
violating the rights of the people that
you’re going to say no we’re not going
to do that and that is my act of
nullification by voting for you
nullifying or making it at the very
least more difficult because par part of
nullification is that when you have a
second amendment sanctuary cannabis
decriminalization of drugs
it usually also comes with an order that
the police in that area can’t cooperate
with with federal authorities and
sometimes with state authorities to
enforce those laws at the state or
federal level making it functionally
impossible for especially the feds to
try to enforce that you know it’s still
against federal law to violate certain
uh second certain gun control laws at
the federal level in missouri for
example but the atf announced we can’t
really do anything we might be able to
do a raid here or there but we can’t
really effectively enforce federal gun
laws in missouri anymore because they
tied the hands of the police there and
said you can’t enforce it so that’s
another example of that it’s the same in
arizona like uh the nra ranks all 50
states on what have the best gun laws uh
invariably arizona’s number one because
we don’t have any permit requirement for
open carry or concealed carry you can
own any kind of a weapon there’s no
state law against say like owning a
machine gun or anything there would
still be the federal law where you have
to pay the 200 transfer tax but there’s
no ammunition restrictions you can own
any kind of ammunition and you know uh
you know sought off shotguns none of
that’s illegal at the state level so we
have just a little pitch for arizona for
any of your viewers about arizona like
we have
absolutely great the best gun laws in
the us here what you could call
constitutional carry and you’re exactly
right if atf tries to come in and do
something and get a local sheriff or
police chief to contribute
officers to a task force to do something
if it’s against state law they’re very
likely to not get the assistance and i
don’t know if you know this but most
federal agencies do almost everything
they do through state and local officers
in a task force like when i was in dea
that was it like 90 of our personnel
were state and local officers that are
part of a federally run task force where
the federal agents are just kind of
administrators of the task force
yeah yeah exactly that the numbers are
in the actual state and local enforcers
that are being for lack of a better word
deputized to do that work or they’re
part of a task force to be able to do
that and if it becomes either illegal or
just too unpopular for them to
unfortunate to help with that
enforcement then federal lobby in that
federal law or those federal
restrictions effectively become
nullified in that area in any real
enforceable way and and there’s and
you know that that’s i think as
libertarians you know you said it
we’re gonna have to at least start
locally in working on nullification i
would love to see a libertarian uh
sheriff project where we focus on
sheriffs who have some people who are
similar like-minded thoughts as you who
run for sheriff in their communities get
elected and demonstrate what it looks
like when you don’t have a police state
telling you how to live your life yeah i
wish there was anything
against the people in power outside of
it yeah like something like a
libertarian sheriff’s association would
be great there’s something called the
constitutional sheriffs and police
officers association cspoa but on a lot
of things they
um you know they take the very you know
maybe neocon hard line on drug war on
different things like that where they’re
very statist in certain areas
um whereas they’re not advocating the
volunteerism that but i think that’s a
great idea
yeah no i i think it should be a project
that we do um and uh it
it wouldn’t take more than a few we
could have five or ten sheriffs across
the country demonstrating on a regular
basis this is what not having tyranny
over your head looks like and invariably
those are also going to become safer
communities those are going to become
more prosperous and happy communities
they’re gonna be where people flock to
get away from the tyranny in the county
next door a lot easier to move from
county to county than from state to
state right so a lot of people within
the state voting with their wallets and
their and their feet to to come there i
think it’s a great thing so i i really
appreciate your time and i thank you for
coming on before i let you go i want to
give you a chance to give any last
thoughts uh that you have anything that
we we didn’t get a chance to discuss
anything you want to promote uh that’s
coming up uh anything you want to say
for as long as you want to say sheriff
david half the way the floor is yours
yeah i’ll give some real easy contact
information i don’t get i don’t mind
getting emails sometimes people hide
from the personal contact information
but let me first of all just give out a
real easy email it’s just a sheriff
david hathaway at gmail.com no weird
characters no weird punctuation just
sheriff david hathaway gmail.com any of
your listeners feel free to reach out at
me uh that like uh things i have coming
up i’m going to be
uh participating one of the one of the
presenters in the
tom woods school of life any of you guys
that are part of that like talking about
arizona the advantages disadvantages of
living in arizona some of the things we
discussed you know the
the climatic regions the possibilities
for living off the grid the political
climate the gun laws the the
homeschooling like we’ve homeschooled
all nine of our children things like
that you know he’s he’s kicked off this
program where he’s getting uh different
presenters to to come in and speak to
his group on different topics to try to
get a little away from just the
libertarian theory and get more into the
practical aspects of how we can create
like a parallel society so i’m going to
be participating in that and that’s
about it um you know
i have written a lot of articles for lou
rockwell.com i’ve written articles for
the libertarian institute so you can go
search for my name on those websites and
find a lot of the things i’ve written
but it’s been great uh being on your
show spike thank you so much
absolutely and thank you for coming on
i’d love to have you on again in the
future to talk more about all sorts of
different issues so hopefully we can do
that in the future but i really do
appreciate you coming on david thanks so
much man i really appreciate it thank
you spike it’s been great
wasn’t that amazing
like that’s
imagine that imagine having
sheriffs like that
across the country
dozens of them or even well over a
hundred of them where there are these
pockets of liberty
where when at the state level
at the federal level or even at the city
level um we didn’t really get to get
into that with this but there were
certain things that the county and the
and local cities were needing help
enforcing and he says no we’re not doing
that that violates their rights knowing
that the only way
that that sheriff’s department is going
to be used
is to protect people’s lives rights and
if you had enough of that
it doesn’t really matter what they pass
because they can’t do anything about it
they can’t stop those elected sheriffs
those elected officers highest law
enforcement officers in their counties
from just saying no you can’t do that
here you can do that in that county over
there if they’re okay with it if they’re
if the if the count if the sheriff over
there is okay with that that’s fine not
not here though
as i said before or as i said during the
as people flock to the places where
there’s more freedom and as a result
more prosperity more liberty uh and and
all of that there’s more safety
and uh better education
all of that
that’s gonna show how that works and i
think uh
i we’re gonna be talking a lot more
about that in the future uh we need to
have libertarian sheriffs i think that’s
some seriously low-hanging fruit there
were plenty of uh
of counties where we could get someone
who runs on whatever the newest the the
latest thing is of that of that time i’m
not going to enforce this whatever that
thing is that people are mad about get
elected on that and demonstrate what
libertarian uh what a libertarian
sheriff would look like so anyway i hope
you enjoyed it um and i hope that you
enjoyed this episode and i enjoyed you
and i enjoyed all of your comments and i
really appreciate you guys tuning in uh
be sure to tune in tomorrow at 8 pm for
the writer’s block uh matt wright is
going to have christine coosler womack
on his show she is the
she’s with the york county uh
pennsylvania libertarian party and she’s
going to talk about everything that’s
going on there
she is also running for chair of the
libertarian party of pennsylvania and
they’re going to be talking about all
sorts of stuff happening in pennsylvania
their convention which i will be at will
be next weekend
but this weekend if you are anywhere
near melbourne florida uh come on out go
to the libertarian party of florida’s
website i always forget to do this what
is the libertarian i think it’s
nope hold on
if you go to the libertarian party of
florida’s website
lpf lpf.org lpf libertarian party
florida dot org um you can sign up to
become uh to be to join the libertarian
party of florida convention
i will be there friday night and i will
be i’ll actually be there friday in the
afternoon and friday night uh i am doing
panel with justin amash talking about
libertarian messaging and then i will be
hosting the dinner on friday night then
on saturday if you are anywhere near
dothan alabama then come on out and go
to do it again uh the libertarian party
of alabama website
libertarian party
alabama by going to lp lpalabama.org
do the rope-a-dope on me i thought it
was anyway
lpalabama.org and you can sign up for
their convention and i will be there at
that on saturday and we’re having uh
we’re having a concert featuring afroman
the yes that afroman the rapper and a
bunch of other uh entertainers including
the greatest rapper alive
spike cohen
i’m not gonna i’m not a rapper
but i will be there and we’ll be hanging
out uh saturday night so come on out and
see me there and then sunday night i’m
going home
so you can’t
i’m not having anyone over i’m sorry
but uh join us next tuesday for another
exciting episode of the muddy waters of
freedom where matt wright and i parse
through the week’s events like the
chipper little monkeys we are and then
join me right back here on wednesday
same spike place same spike time for
another fantastic episode of my fellow
americans folks thanks again for tuning
in i’m so happy to have you here can’t
wait to talk to you all again hope to
see you soon maybe in melbourne florida
or dothan alabama uh thank you again
guys i love y’all i’m spike cohen
did that wrong i’m spike cohen and you
are the power
god bless guys
i can’t make a change
if you slide in my kicks it might fit we
might just unite them come together
become hybrid at the least slightly
like-minded indeed the life i’ve lived
brings light to kindness
all you need is a sign put a cease to
the crimes putting ease to the minds
like mine sometimes darkness is all i
find you know what they say about an eye
for a night in a time when the blood is
the blood who am i to deny would cry
when a loved one dies i recognize that
body outside for the
tell me why
will make a change

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