Mr Bearded Truth – 11 – Police reform with a reformed police officer, Joe Garcia

Jason is joined with the North Carolina Libertarian Party Chair, Joe Garcia, a former New York City Police Officer to discuss police practices and reforms! It’s a great conversation that you don’t want to miss!

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Episode Transcript

This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.

hello and welcome to mr america the
bearded truth covering political and
social issues one liberty at a time
all right so
i was totally trying to play you guys my
intro and uh it just gave out on me so i
will have to rectify that at a later
time love you guys appreciate you guys
all um let me just give my my own intro
if you guys are cool with that so i am
of course
jason lyon mr america the bearded truth
show you guys are here monday nights
8 p.m eastern ish
on muddy waters of freedom where we will
always start a couple minutes late
because technical difficulties
or trying
to get your your intro music to work
right i have an amazing guest tonight
one guy that i i fell in love with
kind of similar to my last guest sean
hickman um where i fell in love with him
just the first couple times of talking
to him because this guy is
one of those guys that just is so
relatable he can spread such a beautiful
message and and then i found out he was
a former police officer he worked for
um the nypd there in the city so
with a background in poli uh in in being
a police officer
being able to talk about police reform
is something that i’ve seen him do so
many times
and i knew the exact guess i wanted to
have on and of course those two things
when you combine them together means
that you have to get joe garcia from
from uh north carolina come on for this
so we’re gonna bring him in in just a
few moments but first
we gotta do a little bit of housekeeping
first of all thank you to matt and spike
for giving me a platform here at mighty
waters media where we get to talk about
my opinions my views and of course we
get to cover
all of politics and social issues one
liberty at a time where we do that here
every monday night at 8 8pm eastern
so thank you for matt and spike thank
you to every one of you coming in
viewing this out sharing this out drop
in some comments live if you’re coming
back watching the replay later drop in
those comments because that’s going to
help the algorithm just the same let me
know how your monday is going let me
know what your big thing from the
weekend was what was the most exciting
part of your weekend drop that in the
comments help out the algorithm help
blow this show up uh in a good way but
thank you uh to each and every one of
you and of course thank you to the
so the sponsors jason’s got sponsors on
the show now
so first of all
let’s get into
the the original the og of of
ads that you guys are unaccustomed to
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and last but not least we gotta talk
about the greasy porcupines
we’ve all been there we’ve we’ve waited
too long to get our oil changes we’ve
had some issues um we’ve needed a
tune-up or some maintenance
and what better way than to do it
through pure algorithm the idea that we
can work with in unison with others to
be able to to
achieve our common goals um well with
alex flores
back in 2020 with the shuttering of the
economy he witnessed an increasing
number of motorists who were foregoing
automotive repairs and maintenance
because they just couldn’t afford it
even as things began to open back up for
many people lack of reliable
transportation due to foregone uh
maintenance and repairs has stood in the
way of them being able to regain
and earn a living so in april of 2020
greasy porcupines was established to
help those in need to get their vehicles
back on the road but who couldn’t afford
those expensive shop prices
so greasy porcupines is a growing
network of mechanics dedicated to
getting motorists back on the road
paying for what they can or trading or
bartering he’s given oil changes for
as well as given oil changes for 500
because there isn’t a price there
because he is there to help out one
another and be able to work this through
what a fantastic man alex flores is so i
gotta gotta give him as much support as
he can um so he is currently servicing
there in arizona and looking to expand
nationwide but without further ado we do
got to go over and and
joe garcia has been waiting patiently i
see him over there looking like he is
ready to hop on this topic tonight i am
so incredibly excited police police
reform criminal justice reform
prison reform these are all under those
big buckets of things that jason just
loves to talk about and so we’ve got an
amazing guest coming on tonight joe
garcia from north carolina or as i like
to call it brent derider if he was in
the chat would already be yelling at me
for this yankee carolina joe garcia
welcome in how are oh no
oh no
it’s not working
did i fix it i did not fix it
i did not fix it
can you hear me at least
they can hear you
hey there we go
yep i gotta go slightly fix it but then
we are good to go there we go perfect
awesome joe how are you doing tonight
good man how are you
oh you know just the the typical muddy
waters uh technical difficulties but
doing great other than that so
i want to know and the people well more
importantly the people want to know
because i’ve heard a little bit of this
i fell in love with your story i love
where you’ve come from so
take me
from the beginning
how did you become what what inspired
you to become a law enforcement agent
talk to me through your through your
career real quick if you could sure so
you know like most people growing up
you know we see a lot of positive
portrayals of police on tv
i grew up in a in a pretty decent
neighborhood uh where we really
didn’t see the cops much
uh we didn’t have much interaction with
them they were middle class working
and as i got older
you know my family still was living in
the neighborhood i grew up in and i i
just said you know look this would be a
good career choice you know most cops
are out there doing good stuff and you
know all the stuff that you grow up
listening to right you know your parents
hey uh
and even in school
uh if you’re in trouble look for a cop
you know uh all the positive portrayals
of movies tv everything else
so uh you know i that’s the line of work
i i chose uh
and uh ended up going into the new york
city police academy back in 1994
uh started my career there uh went and
worked as a patrol officer out on the
streets in brooklyn new york uh for for
a while
eventually made my way up to
uh the detective squad in my precinct uh
investigating you know robberies
burglaries grand larceny cases and
uh and then i eventually moved up to the
computer crime squad from the um to the
nypd worked in manhattan uh for the last
seven and a half eight years of my
and that’s where i finished out back in
uh 2014
retired from there and then i went into
uh into banking doing fraud
investigations essentially
and uh so but what ended up happening
was uh somewhere around i think it was
2007 there was this uh
this guy on stage uh at the
the 2007 presidential debates in south
carolina a guy named ron paul
um who was up on stage with my former
boss rudy giuliani
and who
started speaking about blowback when
they when they were talking about
the the wars in the middle east
and dr paul started mentioning you know
blowback it’s from our
policies and our actions in the middle
east that are that are causing this it’s
not because they hate us for our
freedoms and all the stuff that we were
told from the beginning right yeah which
i i admit i i bought into that um i
think we i think we all did i think we
all bought it into that a little bit i
mean it’s just it’s just propagated
through like every media every every
source that we get and so we’re just
like yeah they they hate us because
second amendment
yeah well for me i actually go back a
second before 2007 uh when when 911 did
happen i i was a police officer then
when the attacks happened i ended up
losing two cousins who were civilians
that worked in north tower and after
that it was just you know i i was really
apolitical at that point and became a
raging neocon right after that because
it was
let’s just
bomb the crap out of the middle east
because hey you know what they killed my
family so yeah i just want to take them
all out and that’s kind of here right
cousins but yes thank you thank you
and that’s kind of where my
political compass was at that point
until 2007. and then here’s this you
know doctor from texas talking about
blowback and and the cost of our
foreign policy in the middle east and
basically watching
every other candidate on stage and even
the moderator kind of
trieding dr paul for that and he just
stood firm on that and that was kind of
like my light bulb moment and i started
you know looking into a lot of videos
and i watched how
uh in every single interview that dr
paul did his position never changed
and that was because he stood on
principle he wasn’t trying to
win points with somebody wasn’t trying
to curry favor this was these were his
principles these were his positions and
and he would stand pat on them yes
and that really got me looking into
libertarianism and that’s kind of where
my my path started it wasn’t immediate
it wasn’t overnight it actually took
years to get where i am now
i i started that was where my path
started now with with with this blowback
thing um certainly a lot of us in the
libertarian circles have been listening
to either ron paul or listening to
others talk about blowback was there
ever a moment in your in your career
where you took that idea and you said
hey you know there may be some blow back
in the way that we’re policing within
our communities um was there was there
ever that domestic idea of blowback as
yeah i mean for the for the most part uh
i had been
out of
being a uniform cop at that point where
i was on the street i wasn’t writing
tickets or you know arresting people on
the street but still i was still
investigating crimes and arresting
people just not at the street level per
and um
you know i
after some time after seeing that debate
and then really starting to think about
blowback and how it applies to other
i really started thinking about how
policing could have blow back
on communities and and how that ends up
becoming anger towards us in a sense
right so
you know you think about
like i’ll use the example of a seatbelt
summons right
so when i was a young cop it was hey you
got to give that seatbelt summons uh
because you’ll probably prevent somebody
from you know getting into a bad
accident and getting hurt or possibly
killed right so that was the mentality
that was that was pushed and you see all
these ads on tv you know you know
click your seatbelt or get a ticket and
then you know they just push the whole
uh you know seat belt
safety now
i’m not against seat belt safety i wear
a seat belt i think everybody should
i’ve had plenty of friends that i’ve
actually had a friend that died because
of not wearing a seat belt and i’ve had
a few friends that have survived
accidents because because of seat belts
so i’m a proponent but um
what i’m not a proponent of necessarily
anymore anyway is giving out seat belt
summonses because you’re not hurting
anybody right there’s there’s no crime
there it’s just revenue generation
either somebody’s going to wear their
seat belt or they’re not you’re giving
them a summons is not going to is not
going to change that in fact i know
plenty of people that won’t put a seat
belt on until they see a police
so we know what good did it do and
they’ll take it off right after so what
could it really do
right but but you know what so here
here’s where we get into the blowback
part of it right maybe the person that
you just gave that summons to
was a single mom who was in between jobs
maybe she’s in a rush or
she already finished a second job and
she’s got to relieve the babysitter and
get make her way home to see her kid you
know uh she just wasn’t thinking uh and
didn’t put her seatbelt on
now you give her the seatbelt summons i
don’t know what they cost nowadays i
think they used to be 25 a long time ago
they’re probably up to 50 or 100 now i
don’t know yeah they’re like depending
on the state of course but yeah
so now think about this right so you
give this person a summons for a seat
belt something they weren’t harming
they didn’t do anything to anybody they
didn’t commit a crime they didn’t hurt
it was just a victimless
event right it’s a victimless event and
so now you give them this 25 50 75
whatever it is nowadays summons
and let’s just say now they’re already
working two jobs because they’re a
single parent
or maybe they’re not a single parent
maybe they’re just somebody who has a
low paying job right and they have just
enough to make their you know their make
their bills
and now what happens is you give them
the summons and they have to make a
do i pay my rent or my mortgage uh
or my bills or do i feed my kids
or do i pay the summons and a lot of
times the choice is to not pay the
summons which i think tends to happen
yeah go ahead i think that what this
what this really does is
because we’re talking about somebody
who’s not high in the economic scale and
this is where
a small fine a small fee something that
somebody in the middle class or
certainly somebody in the upper class
oh here you go here’s 25 bucks here’s 50
bucks you know i have that’s
i was going to blow that on the golf
course you know shooting 18 and get it
from the from the beer cart you know
that’s not a problem but but there are
people out there that this
destroys them
i i couldn’t imagine and it’s a really
hard choice and it’s a choice at that
point right i either do a
or i do b
i really can’t do b right now so i got
to stick to doing a whatever the choice
is let you know whether it’s somebody
whether it’s a single person who’s
barely making ends meet whether it’s a
single mom with a couple of kids that
has to make a decision to feed it
whatever it is like you said low-income
folks who
that that 25 or 50 dollars is a lot
it’s an impact yeah i don’t want to harp
on on seat belt conversation for the
entire time of course but you know i
i’ve got a corner store
literally you drive out of my driveway
drive down to
drive to the end of the street turn
right turn right again so i’m behind my
house there’s a little corner store that
i can go and grab you know when i was
smoking cigarettes i can go get them i
if i if i need a quick drink or like you
know whatever it is i can drive there
20 20 mile per hour zone 20 mile per
hour zone 25 mile per hour zone i have
almost been pulled over and did not have
my seatbelt on for that drive
is it unsafe
am i likely to die there’s a potential
you know depending on how the impact is
and everything else you know i was i
speeding with somebody else speeding you
know there’s a lot of things into it
the idea that now i can’t go get that
pack of cigarettes or whatever i was
doing because now i have to
save that money for for for that hey
right with what you’re saying nobody was
being hurt by me not wearing a seatbelt
was i was i making the best decision at
that point no of course not you know i
could have made a better decision we
call could have
but is that is that the right pursuance
how is that going to affect my view of a
police officer when i’m just merely
running around the corner real quick and
for me individually right i’m gonna hop
on social media and be like look look at
these cops they’re out here just trying
to make revenue because i’m trying to go
in and run to the quick corner store and
i got pulled over now i’m inflamed i’m
enraged and i’m riling up other people
suddenly what you have and i
this is one of the things i really
wanted to talk with you about um because
we we’ve discussed this and and i think
that we’re in a complete agreement um
is that through some of these bad
interactions you have some people out
there that use very inflammatory um
points and and they’re very
argumentative they’re they’re vilifying
and they’re just
a cab right all cops are bastards this
is this is their their thought through
and through and and so we’ve dehumanized
them um because people have had bad
interactions over and over again and and
so once one person has a bad interaction
it gets dog piled on with a bunch of
other people and suddenly it’s every cop
out there is just a bad person every cop
out there is walking down the street
trying to steal all of our money trying
to find out when your seatbelt was was
clicked you know trying to find out are
all your headlights working are all your
tail lights working trying to find a way
of getting that that big grab or or
or worse
that we don’t need to have that and so
when we talk about policing reform
when we talk about criminal justice
reform when we talk about these reforms
right it’s it’s not to be pro or
anti-police it’s not to be pro or
anti-community it’s to be pro-everybody
it’s to be pro-society
and and so i am not of the belief and i
and i certainly don’t think that you are
either that we’re anti-police when we
talk about the stuff there’s there’s a
structure there there’s a reason for law
enforcement and it’s to to help make our
society better
and there’s a side of community that
community has to play its part in this
as well and so we can we can try to talk
about these things to make a better
make it to where we’re not dog piling
and just
trying to use police officers as as the
outlet of our anger and and everything
else um
so really long tangent i apologize for
that but it’s
the the the end of the day right we want
to be able to have these good
conversations of what what was the
police doing why were they why were they
taking the actions they did how was
their training going how can we change
this for a better outcome in the future
and as you were talking about the seat
good intention
bad outcome potential blowback
right i mean you what what a lot of
people have to understand right is not
everybody was born a libertarian right
you have that you have the few that were
born into it but other than that most
people should realize that most police
officers went through the same k-12
system and college system that most of
us all went through right it’s no
different most of us had parents that
told us that the cops were you know were
the good guys and you know the other
people were the bad guys and
for the most part movies and tv shows
push police in a good light and most
police are
good people
they really are they they’re well
right they’re really trying to be
but there is also a little bit of
cognitive cognitive dissonance there too
but the thing is is that overall the
majority of police officers that are out
there on the street
really believe in the job that they’re
doing right again now
whether they’re looking at it that
a lot of them don’t come to look at it
like i have
but you know they’re out there trying to
they’re trying to do the right thing
whether you know whether or not at the
end of the day they really are
is a different story yeah you know but
they think that they’re doing the right
thing uh
yeah we could do our part with them and
and with our communities planting those
let’s plant those seeds let’s get those
light bulbs turning let’s get let’s get
stuff moving
and and most libertarians have to
that um
we’re not going to have libertarian
utopia tomorrow there’s not going to be
a privatized police force tomorrow
right abolishing the police
is not going to happen anytime soon i’m
50 it is not going to happen
if i make it another 50 years it ain’t
happening then either okay so what’s
what’s the best that we can do the best
that we could do is try to reach out to
cops and talk to them like people
and ex you know try to explain to them
what they’re doing it comes to enforcing
victimless crimes and revenue generation
and all this stuff because if we can if
we can
get that message through to them
maybe they stop enforcing certain things
like like seat belts or you know loose
cigarettes or you know any any other of
the you know hundreds if not thousands
of victimless crimes that are on the
books right yeah
because that government policing is not
going away so you could scream
a cab all you want
you could scream that all you want you
could talk about abolishing police
they’re not going anywhere
what really needs to happen is is that
people need to you know put the money
where their mouth is they need to start
talking to cops like they’re human
beings and that’s not to excuse cops
that that do awful things like we should
not be excusing officer chauvin out in
that guy deserves everything he gets you
know what i mean like that’s an awful
human being sorry
you know sorry for me i’m sorry yeah
yeah sorry sorry to my you know my
friends who might be watching this who
you know my former colleagues but sorry
shovel was a piece of garbage
there was no need for what he did
sorry i don’t care what you think about
george floyd forget about the fact
whatever his record was whatever drugs
he had in his system it does not matter
it doesn’t that situation did not give
him the authority to execute that guy on
the street
that’s what it is right
but let’s talk about what caused that
situation to happen
it was you know him passing a
counterfeit bill
it’s almost like eric eric garner out in
staten island new york right yep okay so
here’s all i’m gonna say about that
whole thing is
that cop
that that put the hold on him
his intention was not to kill eric
garner that’s not what happened
okay his intention was to get eric
garner under control because what
happened he was there to enforce a
victimless crime of selling loose
cigarettes and why is that law on the
books because somebody’s not getting
their money somewhere
right for taxes
and then what happens is that the cops
have to answer out that call
right because they’re made to answer out
that call
and then when they go there and they
tell this guy he’s under arrest and he
doesn’t want to go
they’re being told that they have to
arrest him by supervisors
and when they go to put him under arrest
and he resists they’re going to do what
they can to put him in cuffs and if you
watch that video as soon as they had him
cuffed they they let off him like they
didn’t stay it wasn’t like a derek
chauvin situation where you know they
were kneeling on his neck or they were
they were choking him out for you know
eight minutes before he expired that’s
not what happened there watch that video
again and you’ll see that officer
pantaleo like lets him go as soon as
they get him cuffed
so but the the point is is that it’s
the crap law
that that that you know that victimless
crime law of selling loose cigarettes
that brought the cops there in the first
place yeah so
yeah if we can convince them to not
enforce those things from the ground up
you know i mean talk to sharers talk to
chiefs talk to captains and get them to
not send their guys out for stuff like
that you know that avoids so many like
unnecessary interactions between police
and the public
this yeah so that brings up a great
point right and and i’ve spoken about
this a couple times already but um it’s
we need to have a legislative change but
at the same time we need to have those
conversations with law enforcement and
tom caller i hope i’m pronouncing your
name right has said uh he’s from
minnesota but he said i’ve been speaking
with local lawmen regarding the stigma
you’re speaking of and this was of
course the
stigma that we’re talking about earlier
and and i was actually wanted to bring
uh we had a special election here in
south carolina our former uh sheriff of
our county
got arrested for taking a secretary on
state funds and going off to
have fun with her uh leaving his wife
and kids here uh so he’s sitting in jail
so we had to have a new sheriff get
elected and so during the during the
campaign um
for electing a new sheriff i sat down
with many of the the different
candidates and it was to ask them
questions hey look you know i want to
know what are your thoughts on on um
you know i sat down with one and and
there was a group of us and we were we
were like hey what are your thoughts on
who unmarked police cars
being used for traffic violations
it’s like i don’t i don’t see a problem
in that
now this is a guy that i’ve had many
conversations with he leans libertarian
on many things but he had never had that
question posed to him
and so it’s like well are you doing it
for revenue
are you doing this for safety what are
you doing this for why does that car
need to be unmarked
um because we understand you know of
course like the the the flow of traffic
will change if you have a marked car
versus an unmarked car um but if you’re
just out there just to try to get people
is this actually stopping this or is
this increasing the stigma that you guys
are out there for a revenue scheme and
by just planting these seeds with them
kaler thank you sorry sorry about that
tom um
just planting these seeds
can have those light bulbs turn on can
have those those those
trees take root and and so i encourage
each and every one of you guys to get
engaged get involved have these
discussions with your local law
lawmakers have these discussions with
your local law enforcement and and just
because it’s on the books doesn’t mean
that it needs to be exercised and that’s
the the angle you take with them but
just because it’s on the books doesn’t
mean that it’s right it’s the angle you
take with your legislators um and and so
we will of course continue to have these
conversations um but yeah no it’s
speaking of this was something i was
really excited about talking about you
with um
i i hate to i hate to swing far left on
i don’t know if that’s right
swinging further away though where we
were um we were discussing yesterday and
there was a
a reference that you had made that i was
unaware of but a local municipality had
passed let me pull up the actual word um
a shot spotter one of our cities had
just got a shot spotter and installed
and i was unfamiliar with that um
can you break that down for us real
quick i want to learn about it yes
so uh
shot spotters are it’s it’s a uh like a
gunshot detection system
uh that can be installed uh and
it it’ll
i i when i was on the job we didn’t have
them in our precinct at the time these
came out sort of afterwards
but from what i’m to understand about
them is that uh
i guess their systems microphones or
whatnot that are installed and
uh they’re able to distinguish
gunshot sounds versus other sounds uh
and then
direct officers to a location
okay um
from what i’m also to understand uh i
haven’t researched it deeply
but i know that there have been some
cases where
arrests were made based off of uh shot
uh um you know speed sending folks uh
sending the cops out to a location
uh arresting somebody who who wasn’t
necessarily involved
uh i gotta be honest i haven’t really uh
uh researched it deeply
but um
you know i do know that it’s from what
i’ve heard it’s really not that reliable
uh at the end of the day that’s kind of
what i was thinking was like as you were
describing this is
i’m gonna i’ve got to google this while
we talk but um
it seems like it’s in its infancy stages
and so implementing this is kind of
putting your entire populace whatever
size municipality and as a guinea pig
for this
and that’s kind of scary
to think that we’re just gonna have this
be created this was founded in 1996 shot
spotter was
um stock price of 36 dollars right now
um in case if anyone’s out there
but the
so if it’s in its infancy stages right
and so it’s only been around for what 25
years um
and you’re you’re going to put this in
there and you’re going to have
as as you said you know you believe that
it was like a faulty arrest of somebody
being in an area and so
we got a shot here you’re getting
arrested like that yes absolutely this
it’s something that i definitely want to
dig more deep into um because
it’s an interesting concept um
i would love to see it
go ahead the other thing is is that i
think they they tend to get installed
low kit low income areas also
like you’re not going to you know you
you’re not gonna find that in a rich
area let’s be honest yeah so you know it
it leads one to you know
it leads one to believe that uh you know
it’s it’s placed there for a reason
i think there’s there may be some cause
for like the
the economic scale of like you know
where where more crime happens uh
when we talk about policing right um
from what i’ve been able to gather
through research and everything else is
that you kind of have more policing in
lower crime or in higher crime areas
which happens to be in a lower economic
area and so it makes sense as to why
they would do that i would be interested
to see how a a spot shot or shot spotter
there we go uh shot spotter would work
in in an area like chicago um
where we know that there’s plenty of of
rounds being fired off each and every
how accurate would it be and and of
course would it result in in lives being
saved um
i think that
you know as as we’ve kind of talked
about the reliability there it it it
would be interesting to do as a check
mark like as a test i don’t think that i
would want to see it actually be
utilized as a piece of evidence um in it
and that’s right and that’s the problem
it’s going to end up being used as
evidence right yeah because part of it
is to uh they set up numerous
microphones in a however many square
mile area whether it’s one or multiple
square miles
and then
what you get on that is they try to
triangulate where the shot
noises are coming from
and i think one of the problems is i
think there was a report out of chicago
actually as a matter of fact without
googling it i’m just trying to think off
the top of my head
where uh um i think there was more
uh uh false positives than anything
you know is it really doing anything
and and blake mcdaniel from the chat
said is this not what the david chipman
had something to do with creating and
david chipman on his
on his linkedin
august of 2013 to february 2016 he was
the senior vice
of public safety solutions and shot
and we all know uh we all know about
david chipman exactly he’s not head of
the atf right now yes thankfully he is
he couldn’t even make it in but blake
thank you so much for that comment yes
absolutely he was engaged and involved
with that um just showing you atf is all
on board with this
right along with the nra likely um
i think it’s another that’s another one
of those situations where it sounds good
right it sounds like it’s something
that’s good
but it’s really not
yeah it sounds it’s good intentions you
know but the road to hell has paved a
lot of those yes yes very much so
um spike ventures
yeah yeah no so it it’s it’s incredibly
interesting to find like how these
these things are going about and so you
said that this was happening in a city
there in north carolina um so i’m gonna
i’m gonna dive into that i’ll give you
guys some updates through the muddy
waters page uh in the futures um
because i i i’m incredibly interested
about like
the reliability and the the
trustworthiness of this product as i
said but i don’t i’ve realized i swung
as far away from the conversation of
like actual policing reform and or the
policing discussion um
we talked a little bit about that but
you know what the whole but the thing is
see that’s a technology that if it’s
it’s going to create unnecessary
interactions with the public yes right
so that it’s just it’s part believe it
or not it is part of the discussion
it’s just that it’s not it’s not police
officers directly
that are that are creating the um the
interactions with the public
but it’s technology employed by by the
department that’s causing that to happen
yeah so it’s still part it’s all part of
that oh definitely definitely i i was
just thinking like individuals with like
how we’re interacting and like the
stigma and then we go and then this
device that sees it hears it sends it
ships it and yeah so um no i i
definitely am excited to follow up on
that on on that part of the discussion
so we talked a little bit about blowback
and kind of like the perspective of how
how um things are are changing and we
talked a lot about victimist crimes we
talked about seat belt laws we talked
about loose cigarettes and not paying
your taxes um on them when you sell them
and and everything else um
what would you say is like
in in your time whether as a police
officer or outside since having those um
those breakthrough moments in in 2007.
what would you say are like the biggest
things that you would call for
the citizens to do
um in order to help inspire some change
or what would you say is like
what would be the best way to turn on
those light bulbs for law enforcement in
order to to kind of see through a
different lens
i would say as far as the citizens go um
just like i mentioned earlier
you you again i’m not saying not to hold
police officers accountable but there
are a lot of police officers that are
out there every day trying to do the
right thing that they believe they are
doing the right thing
you know we were all propagandized as we
were growing up through the through the
public education system
and by our parents right because they
they taught us these things look for the
cops when you’re you know if you’re lost
or you’re in trouble go look for the
cops right nowadays most people wouldn’t
tell their kids that but for a long time
that’s how it was and there are still
parents that do that i i live in a
neighborhood here where they they
almost worship the cops where i live
because it’s a small department they
they do they do a lot of positive stuff
but you know most of the negative stuff
that they see out of the um
the negative interactions that they’re
seeing is with a lot of
drug dealers or folks doing robberies
and stuff like that and a lot of people
here just aren’t really big proponents
of drugs so you know that’s you know
that that’s where they’re coming from
but what i would say is is just don’t
you know talk to them first of all talk
to them like they’re human beings right
so i’ll go this way
how many
how many of us have friends or family
that were in the military right or that
were in the military okay
if if you weren’t in the military
yourself and you were trying to
uh maybe talk somebody out of staying in
the military a long time if they had
gone in or trying to keep them
from going in in the first place like
how would you approach that would you
tell them that they’re
pieces of garbage for wanting to be
soldiers or sailors or marines or or
tell them that oh you served over in
afghanistan oh well you’re just a baby
killer and all this other stuff how
would you get them to
to come to to where we’re at
right you wouldn’t do all those things
you would just say like hey man do you
realize that you’re over there because
of all these bad policies that the
government put us in well you know let’s
go back to 1953 and iran uh with with
the coup and then let’s move that up to
everything that happened around about
when the the marxist communists took
over in afghanistan and then here comes
osama bin laden we start backing him to
fight the russians and you go through
that whole thing
um you should take the same approach
if you’re trying to speak the cops i
think come at it from
hey maybe they just
maybe they just think that what they’re
doing is right and you need to just
explain to them
like like i said you know explain how
does how does a seat belt turn into
a woman losing her job you know a single
who’s trying to take care of her kids
you know here you go you gave that to
someone she couldn’t afford to pay she
had to make a choice pay that summons or
feed her kids she didn’t do that some
interest paid uh built up on the summons
after a while uh there’s a bench warrant
out for her and they suspend her license
now the next time she gets stopped on
the road while she’s trying to work to
feed her kids
you you know you end up picking her up
and you end up arresting her because now
her license is suspended just because
somebody’s license is suspended doesn’t
mean that they forget how to drive
essentially what they’re doing is
they’re saying you just didn’t pay this
victimless crime back at step one right
she not only has to spend time away from
her kids in jail
but she might lose one of her jobs if
not both because she’s been arrested
was she a criminal was she was she
somebody who was
a purse or someone’s home
victim in the original thing exactly and
you know from point a to point z in this
whole thing you know
where is it that you know you did a good
thing like what you know where is it
that you saved somebody
how could you made a positive impact
right and go go from it from that
perspective uh and as far as the you
know if there are any police officers or
or whatnot that are watching this try to
understand why people are angry with you
you know uh
most of us
end up you know in our time in uniform
we end up dealing with people on their
worst day and a lot of times we’re the
ones causing the worst day
or you happen to be there and you’re
trying to console them on their worst
day you know there have been plenty of
times i’ve i’ve had to go to scenes
where you know people’s family members
died or whatnot and you’re trying to
console them and that’s a bad day for
them you might be doing you might be
trying to do something positive but
that’s a bad day for them yeah and any
anything that you do wrong during that
interaction can cause them to dislike
you know just keep that in mind yeah i
think that that’s an excellent point
and i want to highlight that real quick
that you’re not going to have an
interaction with the police officer
especially if you’re the one calling
them for a circumstance you’re not
calling them on a good day you’re not
like i’ve had such a great fantastic day
like things birds are chirping
everything is going my way right now and
so i need to have these interactions
with police officers
and and so
i want to make a call to all of us in
the audience who aren’t police officers
who may not have family members that are
police officers i i i’m fortunate i had
a couple family members that were police
officers um couple in the military and
everything else so a lot of these topics
of specifics
i’ve had but it’s
understand that when we have these
negative perceptions that are being
portrayed from others that they were
they potentially were having a bad day
before or because of this officer they
were having a bad day and and so we have
we have to understand that as your
emotions go up as as you become more
emotional with that circumstance
maybe just maybe there’s a little bit of
an exaggeration that’s happening there
as well and so
kind of rounding all this together if we
could just humanize one another
if we can realize that the man behind
the badge is a human
if we can realize that the the
person that
gets pulled over for a seat belt
violation is a person if we can just
humanize each other if we can if we can
come into these conversations
thinking that the other side is there
with the best with good faith
discussions and with the best intentions
we can actually move common ground and
we can find common ground and we can
move the middle ground and we can we can
make things better if that makes sense
yeah i mean you know people got to
realize that you know cops aren’t made
in a laboratory
they’re us right we are you know
it’s it’s the population that makes this
up and yes police officers should be
held to a higher standard i don’t care
what anybody says uh even even my my
colleagues in law enforcement you should
be held to a higher standard you have
the ability not only to take away
somebody’s freedom but to take away
somebody’s life
okay so you should be held to a higher
standard sorry yeah no and that’s you
know that’s yeah
no but like i said people need the but
the civilians need to realize is like i
for for all of that
police are still human beings
and they still have the same faults that
we all have no matter you know no matter
how how they try to act at the end of
the day they can have a bad day just
like everybody else you could
lose a child you could uh have gotten
into an accident you could lose one of
your parents
you know your house could have been on
fire these things have all happened uh
you know during hurricane sandy i had
one of my partners like lost his house
house got flooded out in staten island
new york
you know those are things that happened
you know he almost he almost lost his
family in that they actually had to come
out and rescue him he had to run up to
the second floor of his house and get
you know so
you know we have bad days too keep that
in mind yeah absolutely and and
you made the point of like having a
higher standard for police officers and
kind of their conduct and i don’t want
this to be a gotcha question because we
didn’t talk about this before but
qualified immunity
is it yeah
it it’s one of those things where
it’s it’s in place for a reason
but it’s also been
abused a little bit too
because what you don’t real what a lot
of people don’t realize is that um i
mean the lawsuits that can
the complaints and the lawsuits that can
come up just from regular interactions
even if the police officer did
everything from a to z perfectly
there are people who are still going to
sue the department
you know
i don’t know if there’s a different
system that can be put in place for that
that that’s workable
i haven’t really sat down and thought
much about it yeah uh probably something
i should do you know as you know as far
from a messaging standpoint but
um if people just understood
all of the complaints and and lawsuits
that come out for for things that
shouldn’t even be there in the first
place and that the officer would have to
personally take on
and you also have to realize that um
with qualified immunity there’s lots of
things that um
that don’t get stopped
by qualified immunity
because once they reach a certain point
there’s already been you know a
case law on it
and you know and they can go forward
with it and qualified immunity doesn’t
protect the officer
yeah but um it’s a fine line because
what will happen is and i know that
there’s a lot of people that’ll probably
say oh great that’s awesome uh if you
get rid of qualified immunity you’re not
going to really find a lot of people to
take that job
right and then again i know that it
in the idea phase like let’s get rid of
public policing but you still would have
to handle that in a private policing
like how does a company deal with
hundreds upon hundreds of lawsuits that
are coming in
for you know a private policing company
how do they deal with that um
even when the officer has done the right
thing from a to z how do how do you
keep your company from from being buried
in lawsuits
yeah no
i don’t i really don’t know what the
answer is to that to be honest with you
it’s it’s a great question
and and i’m glad that i was able to ask
you this um i’ve actually got a but
if if it’s if it’s okay i’m gonna plug
so october 11th 8pm eastern here by mr
mark of the beard of truth i will
actually be diving into uh qualified
immunity that night uh so i’m excited
for that conversation i think that
everyone in attendance knows this guy
that’s that’s gonna be doing it um many
people love him um
but you guys will have to stay tuned for
that one but yes no i i completely agree
with the idea that
it’s a it’s a huge struggle there right
to give if anyone is unfamiliar with
what qualified immunity is right this
was a precedent that was created
basically by the supreme court that
government officials or government
workers including police officers from
civil lawsuits
based on certain different criteria and
and so
um by not having those lawsuits come
through right um many people have viewed
these as frivolous and and you know as
as as joe was talking about it
you can have a great abundance of them
come just pouring through and you’re
going to flood the system you’re going
to be holding all these you’re going to
be tying up all these officers it’s it’s
incredibly difficult to navigate and so
there has to be kind of a structure
there there has to be some way that we
kind of uh
in my opinion right in my opinion we
want to be able to to allow for people
to have the ability to redress their
grievances in accordance with the first
amendment but we also don’t want to make
it to where we’ve lost the capacity for
any kind of enforcement on that front as
well and so there is there is a ground
that we have to kind of navigate through
and and work through i hope that this is
coming through as articulate as i’m
thinking it does but
it means that there
as as we’ve discussed in previous shows
um i think it was uh with dwayne lester
there are no solutions only trade-offs
what is the trade-off what is the right
trade-off for society and that’s why
these conversations are so incredibly
important so i didn’t want to get you
with a gotcha question but i i i wanted
to make sure i i asked that i would feel
terrible but you know yeah but you know
people just need to realize that um you
know coming from a big city police
department right and i’m sure that this
will happen in la i’m sure that this
happens in chicago
and um
you know
where not only the the
system for people to file civil suits
against cops is abused so is the like
the civilian complaint review board
system is the same thing
like you could be
you know on point the whole time
and people will just make civilian
complaints about you
and you know that’s that’s abused also
it just doesn’t cost you a dime you know
as far as an officer goes
um it doesn’t cost you a dime to have
that uh that complaint come against you
but it takes an officer off the street
for a day
uh it could potentially put a mark on
their record yeah uh because it’s not a
uh typically it’s not a police officer
or a detective or police supervisor
that’s interviewing you for these a lot
of times it’s college kids at least that
was my experience when i was in new york
city a lot of these people were like
straight out of college
barely none of them had you know any
sort of street smarts at all uh not that
they make some bad people but a lot of
them you know
came in uh not liking cops to begin with
believe it or not and and they a lot of
them had a bias yeah oh yeah
and you know but that system gets abused
too and what that what ends up happening
is is you know like anything else when
something gets abused it’s almost like
the whole cry wolf situation
right you know it’s difficult
it’s incredibly difficult to find the
right accountability system for a system
clearly right we we agree that there
needs to be accountability right bad
copies need to be reprimanded good cops
need to be rewarded and and
how do we implement these things and and
so this is just one of the one of those
big things that that fills into this
conversation um i
yes i could talk about this for days i
uh because you’re right right when
people come in with
when we look at jurors right when when
when they’re looking to fill out their
jury right you want to find people that
are unfamiliar with with everybody
involved with the case you want to find
people that don’t have a bias one way or
the other that are going to be able to
come to their conclusion
just through the facts of the case
here’s what the law is here’s what the
the facts of the case how do you how do
you feel this person is are they
innocent or guilty here are the charges
right that’s that’s the way a jury goes
and when you talk about the criminal um
the sorry the the the
civilian uh the
was it a review board
is that the correct term yeah so the
civilian review board right so what this
is is this is a panel of of community
who get to sit down and they basically
get a review certain instances that get
brought before them and they get to
figure out is this officer or it was
this interaction was this aligned with
or was this not aligned with with
principles with the policy with the law
et cetera et cetera and so they in some
cases they they have teeth where they
can they could really
you know mess up somebody’s career or in
other cases they can just merely file uh
recommendations to the chief of police
or the sheriff or whoever is in charge
of that municipality um
and and so you you spoke about there are
those people that have those biases and
and it’s not just biases for or against
that that’s what it was right it’s not
just biases against like you’re gonna
have people on there regardless of a
police officer and i think we’ve all
seen seen those people regardless of
what a police officer does because he
has the badge he’s justified in it and
it’s like that’s that’s wrong that’s
completely wrong um as well as the
person that says he has a badge so he’s
he’s wrong he’s like no no stop that we
need to actually look at this we need to
have a level head and reason and
rationale as to how we come to the
conclusions we do and and so finding
those those proper
system levers of accountability i think
is where where we’re stuck
yeah and there are um at least that as
the case in new york was and i’m i’m
going to assume
i know i shouldn’t but a lot of big
cities probably employ people
to be on a civilian complaint review
board so it’s not just
random citizens being called in to look
at a case
it’s actually people who are employed by
their respective city oh wow that’s
their job that’s their full-time job so
that that’s the thing too you got to
keep in mind is that it’s not always
just oh we’ll we’ll you know what we’ll
put a notice out to a bunch of people
whoever’s interested in doing this
review session they’ll come in and we’ll
cycle them out it there are you know
like i said in new york
people were on a payroll for the city
and they were brought in to specifically
you know
be the reviewers for these cases
that’s that’s really interesting i
oh i gotta learn more about those
civilian review boards because i would
i’d be interested to find out like
how what their pool of people is that
they have on these things or how many
are being utilized uh are they trying to
use them for specific
areas of cases right this person’s like
one of our go-to’s for like drug related
cases this is our go-to for this you
know things like that if they make
specialists if you will um
i i i’m inclined so
in having conversations with with some
of the sheriff candidates we were
talking about this very topic
and and what a good civilian review
does and and how it functions right and
and of course you want the review side
you want them to be able to review
how much teeth do you want them to have
because you’re afraid of those biases
coming out and and having good cops be
reprimanded or having bad cops be
rewarded um
that’s that’s kind of been the sticking
point for a lot of people if you give
them no authority then people just say
it’s no there’s no reason for it if you
give them too much authority
you can destroy lives either way it’s
it’s it’s yeah
it’s amazing
we’ve got to figure out something this
is this is why like
i i love like having these conversations
because there’s never a time in which we
have conversations around any any kind
of an experience right your your lived
experiences being a police officer your
breakthrough moment and your perspective
on on how policing is done and
everything else
i’m learning so much through these
conversations and we have such
big world questions
and we
we can we can throw in our trade off
but it i’m hoping that this is turning
the gears for all the people in the
audience as well um so we can
maybe you could be smarter than both joe
and i combined and come up with with the
perfect trade-off that that minimizes
the the losses and and a huge benefit to
society so we can have that
accountability and we can see
the community and the police work
together i think that that
you’d spoken about your your former um
i think you called him your former boss
rudy giuliani
yeah he was the mayor uh of new york
city when i uh when i first came on the
police department he had his terms there
uh his term ended after 9 11. and he had
he had a different policing practice
than than what a lot of
law enforcement
or mayors um had and
i i don’t know if you recall it right
off um but it was more yeah it was
right yeah uh
basically during
and i think this has been adopted by a
lot of uh especially big city
departments is that whole broken windows
theory you know if you take care of the
smaller things the big things take care
of themselves so
if you are
riding a double parking so you have cars
that are double parked on an avenue in a
busy city street right
uh if you allow them to stay there
can potentially
have accidents get caused by it because
people are going around uh
or it could be somebody that’s the wheel
man for a
robbery or something like that and by
giving that summons
uh you might not stop the robbery per se
but if it happens at least if that
summons has been given there’s a record
um that you know that that summons is
given and they can go back and look and
say oh okay
around that area at this time there were
you know x amount of summons is written
uh and they pull all the summonses out
and then they go okay well here are the
cars that were on that particular street
when that robbery happened you know the
you know the son of san killer that’s
how they caught him right they caught
him by a parking ticket that was
actually my old precinct that i worked
in well before obviously before i got
there uh but yeah that’s that’s how they
caught him they caught him on a parking
so that you know that mentality yeah
yeah so
you know uh
essentially that was the mentality like
if you take care of small things um the
big things will take care of themselves
and but now what does that generate that
just generates
more interaction between the police and
the public
don’t necessarily need to be there yeah
you know for every
you know
however many thousands of summonses that
are written out there on a daily basis
uh in whatever city you’re in uh or
hundreds of you know hundreds of summons
is how many of them are really catching
you know doing anything they’re just so
much of them generating revenue yeah
that’s it it’s just generating revenue
so but yeah that that was you know back
in new york prior to 1993 94. you had i
mean i grew up in new york city if you
watch um
any movie like the warriors the bad
uh uh the french connection look at some
of those old movies that’s what new york
city really looked like that wasn’t done
up for the movies
that’s what new york city looked like
back in the you know 70s 80s early 90s
you know uh the bronx was burning uh
there’s actually a uh what the get down
i think it was it’s on netflix it was uh
how how kind of like rap got started in
the bronx new york
and and you watched that show and
how the building a lot of the buildings
were like destroyed and on fire and
there was like smoke
pouring out of the you know where the
the building’s uh foundation was and
stuff like that that’s what the bronx
really looked like back in that time
back in the 80s and all that wow uh and
so you know uh um
when you when you have
the mentality that oh if we could
arrest or summons the people writing
graffiti if we can
get rid of the squeegee men that were on
the another big thing back in the day
was you know you’d pull up to a stop
light in some parts of the city a
squeegee guy would come out and start
you know squeegeeing your window it’s
with a bottle of dirty water um
you know so the mentality was we got to
get these people off the street we got
to get rid of the homeless we got to get
them off the street it’s making the city
look bad and so on and so on and so on
but at the end of the day what that
ended up creating was
a statistical nightmare for precinct
commanders because now
as they
fight these things and they’re fighting
they started keeping statistics of these
things and
now the precinct commanders are fighting
last year’s statistics
against this year’s statistics and
they’re always being compared oh yeah
yeah so there’s there’s all these
metrics right so they used to have
something in new york called traffic
uh and essentially what that was is they
they would look at all of the the
moving violations that were issued uh
red lights speeders stop signs
name it you know and then it would be
well this you know
this week last year you had x amount of
you know red light summonses that your
your precinct had written why is it that
you only have this many now it’s a
percentage change of this
and then you know and that changes
things too it’s like so i think you just
answered uh a question that people
in law enforcement typically don’t like
to answer but a lot of people have those
questions and the the age-old question
of you guys got a quota don’t you well
we don’t have a quota but
well yeah they they don’t fix that they
don’t have a quota right um
there is a quota i don’t care what
anybody tells you there is you gotta get
your metrics you got to hit those
metrics and and the thing is is that
uh a lot of that
nobody will want to come out and say
but a lot of times like um
let’s just say you’re a little short on
performance uh especially if it’s on a
consistent basis
maybe you need to leave early one day
because you have something to do maybe
you want to leave early because you’re
going to a concert or you’re meeting
some friends for dinner
your shift commander you know could
basically turn around and say uh
yeah not today sorry
and you could have plenty of cops
working and you leaving wouldn’t
hurt the shift at all
um especially in a big city you know
where you have you know 20 you know
people or so working on a shift maybe
more um
yeah that’ll be held against you
uh maybe you want to go to meal
your lieutenant or sergeant doesn’t let
you go to meal because you’ve been
falling into performance
so you have to eat out in your car
i’ve had these things happen to me but i
didn’t care so that’s just me
yeah no hey nice
i’d probably be in that i say that i
think that i would be in that same
same boat of
i’m okay with that
okay you know how many times i’ve eaten
in my car i don’t care doesn’t matter to
me i do it still like it’s not even a
punishment i’m just like no i’m on the
go let’s go
yeah so that that the age-old quota
question i i’m so glad that you were
able to to talk about that because it’s
it is one of those things that everyone
feels like there is and and at the end
of the month or at the certain time of a
month there’s always a little bit more
of a police presence on the
neighborhoods or not in the
neighborhoods but like busy streets and
everything else and she’s like oh
no it’s not a quota guys but it’s yeah
it’s it’s looking at the metrics of last
year so looking at the metrics of of how
you’ve been doing is looking at your own
personal metrics of of your personal um
performance and everything else and of
course everybody wants to go out for for
their friend’s birthday dinner on a
friday night so
when you
get jacked up guys the question that
needs to be asked is
okay so you’ve gotten all these
what has that done to protect the public
what is it really done yeah and don’t
tell me stop accidents because it
yeah but it’s definitely stopped
reckless driving it doesn’t
it puts us back into that perspective
that we’re talking about earlier of now
what do these people think of law
enforcement well
you got this this officer jim bob over
here who’s given a thousand and one
seatbelt tickets he’s given uh 250 uh
broken tail light tickets he’s
but he’s helping in some way
but he’s i could tell you
i could tell you that there were times
when i was young in my career
uh that i would go out and do traffic
there was an intersection
if you put me out there i could have
written summonses every day all day long
for people running red lights
legitimately running red lights even
with the marked even if they knew
that a marked police car was going to be
out there
i’d still catch people
every single time every single time so
even just being out there doesn’t stop
it doesn’t
i’ve got i’ve got a couple couple
cop points along my way to work i’m like
there’s gonna be a cop up there oh hey
there’s a cop there i’m still gonna go
79 in this 55 i’m still gonna go 79.
just right along with the rest of
traffic and we’re just going to flow on
one day he’s going to pull over he’s
going to pull somebody over
and and
i’m going to give you the floor here in
a second so we can wrap things up but
you know when he pulls somebody over
this is also something else that i would
love to get your idea on but when he
pulls over somebody who is going with
the flow of traffic
and pulls them over he’s creating not
only an unsafe circumstance because now
they’re off on the side of the road but
causing a change in the flow of traffic
could also be a safety hazard because
now everyone else is slamming on their
brakes because you’ve got flashing blue
have have you been able to bear witness
to this or have heard of like actual
incidents happening because
because law enforcement is doing law
enforcement does that make sense
yeah i i haven’t seen that um i was
never somebody who wrote like speeding
summonses so okay uh but i i have seen
you know people traveling on a highway
and uh a lot of mostly has been down
here in the south since i’ve moved down
here but uh
it’s a pack of cars moving and it just
so happens that the trooper goes after
the the slowest of the pack
you know and it’s just kind of like
you know it’s it’s like you know i can
understand if everybody’s doing you know
the speed limit slightly over and here
comes this one dude blowing through at
80 you know 90 miles an hour okay i get
you know but you grab the slowest you
know you have a a cluster of people in
three lanes and you just happen to grab
the slowest one like that’s not cool
yeah that’s just
not cool
yeah it is it’s hard to see like which
one of these people are you gonna pick
out to go all of you guys need to stop
because all the ones that don’t get
stopped they’re not stopping
and guess what they’re going to continue
to speed whether it’s that day or the
next day or the next day or the next day
so you haven’t stopped anything no
you haven’t and
i think that i think that one of the
things that we have to learn about like
driving right i know people in
massachusetts are mass holes i know that
they’re mass holes it doesn’t matter if
there’s law enforcement on the side of
the road it doesn’t matter if they got a
speeding ticket last week they’re going
to be a massive uh because that’s that’s
who they are that’s the culture if you
drive in massachusetts you you suck at
driving and i hate you but
not not every one of you if he has a
money water fan we love you but um
but there’s there is that culture there
and so no amount of law enforcement
there is actually going to change it but
what you will change is the perception
that you
that law enforcement has and i think
that that’s one of the biggest
disservices that they can be doing um
and and i’ve i’ve spoken about the civil
asset forfeiture thing here in south
carolina we have a county where
we have a sheriff that was actually was
deputizing everybody across the state to
come into his county and just pull
people over along the highway and it’s
just like nobody wants to drive on that
highway because
civil asset forfeiture speeding tickets
et cetera it’s just like nobody wants to
be there so they’re gonna speed on the
back roads
they’re gonna carry their twenty dollars
in cash or whatever that would have been
taken they’re gonna take down the back
roads and and so it’s
i feel like the over policing idea and
and certainly the over is is a
subjective line
only is to the detriment of police and
and how they’re being dealt with um or
from the perception of the people and so
that’s something and the military
militarization of the police too right i
a lot of that came out from the what was
it the bank robbery in la i forgot what
year it was the two guys that looked
like completely up armored and yeah
carrying automatic rifles
how many
bank robberies have you seen like that
since then or you know you haven’t seen
that but that’s always an excuse to to
continue to militarize the police and
give them you know this uh surplus
military equipment what is it the 10
1033 program i always forget what it is
uh what the name is 1037 1033
uh the one where they can get surplus
military equipment yeah i don’t know i
don’t remember but yeah i i
i what’s the need for that most police
departments have their own special
response teams like the nypd has esu
emergency services unit and they’re
specifically trained for a lot of those
things you know there’s no need to
capture the general
yeah have the general plea which in the
nypd that doesn’t happen but in a lot of
these smaller departments you have that
a lot of these smaller uh smaller county
and town police
have a ton of military equipment they
don’t need like how many towns have an
mrap that they don’t need
i mean seriously how many ieds are going
to have to worry about in in in your
little po dunk town in wherever south
south usa seriously it reminds me of of
a meme i saw a couple years ago it’s
like if you listen to fox news you know
the jihadists are coming to blow up your
dairy queen and podoc north carolina or
not north carolina north dakota but it’s
just like nobody’s coming from the
midwest but you’ve got all these people
just prepping and they’re like they’re
coming for us it’s just like no they’re
they’re really not they’re coming for
our corn fields man you know it’s like i
want the freedom in my corn fields
yeah thanks fox news
but i i have a question from from the
chat real quick for you and then um i’m
gonna give you the floor to to wrap us
up um some municipalities is from tom
kaler uh some municipalities have been
caught shortening the duration of the
caution yellow on the stoplights um do
you have any experiences with that
no uh when i was in the nypd we had
nothing to do with traffic lights that
was all set by
the city by the department of
uh i
maybe in some of the smaller areas
uh outside of municipal you know large
that might be a thing but from my
experience um
i mean i’m not and i won’t say that it
hasn’t happened in other cities i just
know that from from the nypd standpoint
we didn’t have any control like we we
didn’t have access to the boxes we
couldn’t open them up and change the
patterns or anything like that
you know people need to realize that in
a lot of big cities the patterns are
there for a reason they study flows of
and they don’t want
sometimes having access to those boxes
yeah i mean no seriously i mean
if if you can
if you throw off a pattern in a place
like new york city you can end up
creating a really bad traffic
and trust me they don’t want just
anybody having keys to those boxes
um so yeah you know that that was
something that we never had access to um
but i’m not saying that it can’t happen
in a small town somewhere or in a you
know in a in a smaller city
you know uh with you know where the
sheriffs might have that i don’t know
uh it’s possible though i would never
say never
yeah but i would say in a big city
though it’s probably really less likely
that that happened definitely and and
with that so
i agree like that municipalities want to
usually it’s like a d.o.t or somebody
who’s setting up those the the flow of
traffic and everything else they look at
a lot of things they’re supposed to and
we have actually one uh road here in in
uh the upstate of south carolina
that they did
the guy was drunk that day he was just
like whatever there is no flow either
way on an incredibly busy road so if you
go anywhere two hours plus or minus on
any of the rush hour times it is the
worst road to go on but there are so
many businesses there’s malls there’s
there’s uh best buy there’s target
there’s you know food there’s everything
on this road so you’re kind of stuck
going on this terrible road and
everybody knows which road i’m talking
about if you’re in the upstate of south
carolina um
because they just didn’t care and so
i i heard this question so many times
during the sheriff’s debate
um as they were campaigning they were
like can you guys change like the the
flow of traffic on this road and they
were like
that’s not us
it’s just like we can’t really change
that and and and so i i it’s important
that we do know where the where that
importance is or who has that ownership
um because we need those um we need a
good flow of traffic right if you have a
heavy inflow coming from one area you
want them to be able to go through
distribute and disperse throughout
wherever they’re trying to go in a in a
healthy manner and you want to allow for
for other traffic to flow as well and so
there’s so many different things
that goes into that
and and i just did a quick google and it
says between three to six seconds i
heard a thumb rule that basically it’s
gonna be um at least one second for
every ten starting at three seconds so
at 30 miles per hour you’re going to
have three seconds
660. so um
hopefully there’s some validity to that
i’ve heard that as a thumb rule of
course with every thumb rule out there i
before e except over after c except for
all of these other exceptions um so so
don’t come at me if my thumb rolls off
but um
i want to thank you joe for for coming
on tonight and i want to know
if you have any last big thoughts any
big things that you would uh be sad if
you didn’t share with the the mr murica
the bearded truth and the muddy waters
crowd um tonight if there’s anything you
want to share with us
first of all thank you
i had a great time uh i’ve got a great
time with our chats on clubhouse and all
that stuff too
which is what led to this
uh but
just um essentially
just remember that cops are are people
uh that government policing isn’t going
anywhere anytime soon i know i’m
repeating myself but no you’re good i
just want to hammer these are great
highlights these are much needed
you know
government policing isn’t going anywhere
for as much as i’d like to see private
it’s not happening anytime soon so
let’s try to talk to
in good faith to law enforcement
to try to get them to
understand why enforcing victimless
crimes is a bad thing
it’s not a good thing and it doesn’t
really help the community at all
as far as any law enforcement that might
be watching this
just remember you should be held to a
higher standard
you have
you know you have the authority
of the government behind you
you have a firearm you have the ability
not only to take somebody’s freedom away
but to also end their life
and that could come through uh you know
a really bad decision on your part and
you should really know the laws too
uh because i’ve seen too many cops on
film uh you know say hey i told you to
get away from you because i said so
that’s not the law you know what i mean
uh so learn the law
try not to intimidate people just
because you have a badge
those guys i don’t have any respect for
if you need to intimidate people just
because you know maybe you got your ass
kicked in
junior junior high school or high school
and now you got a badge you think you’re
a tough guy you’re not really a tough
guy you’re just abusing your authority
uh but also
you know just
just like jason said man just let’s
treat everybody like human beings uh and
we might be able to get somewhere
because just remember too
that you know cops aren’t the ones that
write the laws
right it’s it’s some guy or a gal in a
suit somewhere in
in in your local town um in your county
in the state house or or up in dc that
are writing a lot of these laws uh but
if we can convince them to to stop
enforcing some of these really crappy
you know we could be a little more free
absolutely i i love it i appreciate it
and uh i want to thank you for for
coming on tonight i’ve
i’ve been excited for it since i met you
and and you plug something that i
try to plug every time and i have yet to
plug this entire 11 shows that i’ve been
back and that of course the clubhouse so
if you guys have not gone on the
clubhouse make sure you guys get over
there check it out join in lean into
if i could do a couple couple quick more
plugs of course you guys want to become
muddy water subscribers so the low low
price of 9.99 a month you guys can help
muddy waters uh dreams become a reality
help support us and you guys will be
getting exclusive content um
and so make sure you guys go over to
anchor dot fm slash muddy waters
help out join in you’re gonna get
exclusive content from spike from matt
from myself and the muddy waters team so
we’re going to keep growing pumping out
great content for you and you guys may
be able to see more from joe as well
maybe we’ll be able to get some
highlight stuff
from our clubhouse conversations and
everything else as time progresses on
forward so if you guys are finding
guests that we’re having on my show on
spike show on matt’s show you guys may
be able to find more exclusive content
there so just lean into that as well as
plenty of other great stuff coming
through the pipeline on that
um and then also make sure you guys are
going over to sorry muddy
waters of store and you can
get your muddy waters merch you can look
great while supporting the crew
um but joe i want to thank you once
again for hopping on tonight it was an
absolute pleasure i know you’ve been
busy i know we’ve all been busy and um
always excited to talk with you man
love you even if you are from yankee
carolina keep doing great things up
and uh hopefully you guys will be able
to catch us in waffle houses one day but
but with that i hope you have a great
night and i hope you and the audience
have a great night as well and i love
you guys and i will see you guys back
here next monday
and until then tuesday night mighty bars
of freedom with
mad spike wednesday with spike on my
fellow americans thursday with writer’s
block and then friday with cajun and
eskimo libertarians we have from bayous
to igloos so great week uh to come
through and next week
we’re going to keep on pumping out the
great stuff so stay tuned guys
come back we’ll see you guys soon and
thank you and love you guys and see you

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Jason Lyon
Jason Lyon
Jason Lyon - USN Submarine Vet -Minarchist/Constitutionalist - #Liberty advocate - Principles over party - Constitution over Idolatry
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