Mr Bearded Truth – 10 – Individual Rights and Free Market Principles with Shawn Hickman

Individual rights and free market principles, why are these so important? Jason and his guest, Shawn Hickman, are going to take a dive into these intrinsically connected ideas and challenge our culture to understand and value them along with us.

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Episode Transcript

This episode transcript is auto-generated and a provided as a service to the hearing impaired. We apologize for any errors or inaccuracies.

hello and welcome to mr america the
bearded truth covering political and
social issues one liberty at a time with
entertaining insights of current events
and important discussions on topics that
affect us all
shining the torch of liberty and
brightening the future by bringing
libertarianism into our everyday life
and now your host the friendly
neighborhood libertarian jason lyon mr
murica the bearded truth on muddy waters
hello everybody i’m so glad you’re here
so excited for tonight i hope you guys
are as well i’ve got an amazing guest
coming up but shawn hickman
uh he’s a guy that i
in the uh
absolutely no homo uh way fell in love
with him after the first conversation i
was so excited to have him come on uh
this guy is truly a wealth of knowledge
um knows his stuff through and through
from the economic side of thinking and
the logic and and
just puts on an amazing display of logic
and and
i i couldn’t speak highly enough of this
guy and so i knew
that he had to come on and i’m so
excited for the conversation we’re about
to be having and of course this
conversation tonight is about individual
rights and free market principles and
those two are intrinsically connected
you can’t have one without the other and
and so we’re gonna we’re gonna parse
through that we’re gonna dive into that
tonight and i
could not be happier with it but before
we get into all of that
i have some things to plug the first
thing the most important thing
that’s not the most important thing but
the first thing that we’re going to be
diving into
is that if you are a fellow
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we’ve got that from the mighty waters
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guys and you guys have seen this
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multiple other shows but
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further ado i want to dive in and bring
my wonderful amazing beautiful gorgeous
bearded better than cajun guest on
how’s it going tonight buddy
wow that was a warm welcome i don’t know
if my beard will ever compete with yours
but to even be considered in that same
uh echelon is uh is an honor
oh man i um
as i said i was so excited once i first
heard you i gotta take this white screen
off my face
nope there’s another white screen oh
there’s another way
i’m gonna get this down guys i promise
there we go there we go
once i first heard you speak i knew
that you were somebody that had the had
the intelligence to know the facts the
statistics to know like the
but you also had the empathy you also
have like so many different forms of
this messaging that are going to
resonate with literally everyone across
the spectrum which is why like the
success that i’ve seen you’ve had so far
makes sense which is why
you know in a future discussion i have
with potentially you or with others
right as we become successful in our
endeavors why we
receive flack because you know we we’re
we’re hurting people
because we’re destroying their arguments
one one liberty at a time
and and so i i came to you and i said
sean gotta have you on the show
and as soon as you said these topics
you you gave me three topics and i said
no no two of those topics are one topic
and that’s the topic we’re doing and and
you know you you’ve given me individual
rights and free markets and so i want to
first ask you why is that so important
to you
yeah it’s a good question i think
first and foremost
we live in a society today who’s
where the virtues are out of order um
forget about economics for a second
forget about politics
from a philosophical perspective there
is there are other things we need to
sort out first we need to think about
epistemology we need to think about uh
when i think of the fundamental rights
of man uh and and you can get this from
uh you know
reading john locke you can get this from
reading thomas paine um
there are
there are inalienable rights that humans
have there are
there’s there’s nature’s laws forget
about man’s laws there’s there’s
nature’s laws you do have the right to
your life you do have the right to your
liberty and you do have the right to
your property
when you think about those rights
those rights supersede
any form of uh government structure that
you can conceive of those rights
supersede any type of economic uh plan
that you can then layer on top of that
and so the reason why uh you know it’s
so important to talk about free markets
and to talk about individual liberty
in combating
the the the virtues that are out there
now that that prioritize this idea of
equality over liberty or this idea that
you’re going to uh you know create a
side society that is uh equal on every
you’re not going to be able to achieve
that but what you can do is you can
recognize the liberty of each individual
and give people the opportunity
to based on their own
knowledge skills abilities drive uh you
can give them the ability to succeed or
to fail
and i i believe that the most moral
society forget about the most efficient
and it is the most efficient also but
the most moral way to organize this
society is to give everybody that
freedom to be able to succeed or fail
based on uh you know removing the
impediments that would allow them uh to
be successful in life and i think when
we think collectively um and we can get
into this deeper
uh when we think collectively we’re
we’re essentially putting the needs of
the whole above the the needs of the
individual and by doing that we’re
stripping that humanity and we’re
stripping that logical uh understanding
that the rights are
the rights are granted uh inalienably to
the individual not as a whole and so in
order to say that this group needs to be
equal to that group you’re going to then
inevitably uh trample on somebody’s
rights in order uh you know for the
greater good and uh this concept of
greater good has really gotten us away
from the idea of natural rights and uh
and it’s my it’s my goal to just talk
about this openly uh you know and and uh
with empathy because i think sometimes
people confuse the idea of individualism
with being um
somehow cold and it you don’t have to be
and uh and and when i use words like
selfishness uh i use it in a way that is
is is a positive thing i don’t believe
selfishness is is a bad thing
if i i need to
uh selfishly invest my time selfishly
invest in my own skills and ability to
be able to create uh to be able to
create safety for my myself and my
family to be able to produce wealth and
to be able to do those things i need to
i need to use all of the faculties that
have been given to me which include my
mind my body uh my creativity and and
then and then put forth the work and i’m
i’m looking for a society that would
better embrace uh those natural rights
that we have
damn that
so much in there uh so impactful i i
think that you know that that ruggedness
of freedom of
successes and failures right um
it’s one of those things that when we
when we talk about this from an
empathetic point of view that
success can only come if there’s failure
if failure’s allowed
if if nobody’s allowed to fail then
everything is a success and and
in a
how do you break this down if everything
is a success then you’re actually
limiting how good that success can
really be right because if if somebody
is merely
if and i want to get into to the
economic things of like minimum wage and
stuff like that um if you say that you
know everyone gets a living wage
regardless what they do so you have one
guy that’s sitting out back and just
stomping on on ant hills right he’s
getting paid to where he can cover his
mortgage he can cover his his car
payment covers food for him and his 17
kids you know
what have you um
is is he really uh
affording that much
value to to be able to extract that um
in that way and certainly so his his
success there is actually is a failure
that’s just been provided through the
means of taking from from others um but
when when you have entrepreneurs that go
out and they try to build up businesses
we want to see those good ideas flourish
we want to see the better businesses be
able to survive
and this is going to tie in those free
market values of we don’t want to have
barriers there of of preventing
entrepreneurs from getting into the
market to where they can compete against
the big guys and they can take a chunk
of that pie away and so even the big
guys have to innovate the big guys have
to to change um
but plenty of those small guys are going
to fail and they’re going to learn so
many valuable lessons and so that that
that that idea of success and failure is
so incredibly important
i i know you’re tired of it but i’m
certainly tired of hearing that that’s a
lack of empathy that we want people to
fail no no we want people to be
successful and the only way to be
successful is through having some
if that makes sense um it it does it
does and if i could just add i think
yeah sometimes
people have a a disconnect with what
success actually looks like and what
that road map uh appears like and one of
the ways to think about this is think
about when you go to the gym and you’re
building muscle
uh when you’re building muscle i can’t
tell you precisely at what day of going
to the gym and working out
that your muscles are going to be larger
and stronger but i can tell you that if
you work out consistently if you
increase the reps that you’re doing
and you uh and you increase the the load
that that you’re under your muscles will
grow but temporarily what happens is
your muscles your muscles get destroyed
and they grow back stronger and they
grow back stronger and they grow back
stronger over time and that’s how
success works
when you first
learn a skill you need to invest you
know a ton of hours into learning what
it is that you’re doing and during that
time there’s an opportunity cost you
could have been making out making money
when you were investing in yourself and
investing in that skill and sometimes
you do have to take a step back in order
to be able to take that step forward and
but ultimately you can define success
however you choose some people uh you
know see that as a pile of money others
see that as uh you know happiness and uh
depending on how you define it i think
that’s the other important thing about
individualism is the fact that you don’t
want society to determine what success
looks like for you you want to be able
to determine what success looks like for
yourself and you know and and if if you
are wired to think first about the group
that’s fine i’m not saying that all
collective thought is bad i think the
key here is is it voluntary associations
if you if you if you want to help others
if you can help others and if you’re in
agreement that they want your help they
need your help and you come together
hopefully it’s mutually beneficial uh
and sometimes it’s uh you know it’s just
a matter of just it’s what you want to
that is the way that society thrives by
by conscripting people to do certain
activities you’re taking them away from
activities that they could have done
that might have produced a better result
and so having that freedom to to uh to
freely associate and and choose your
destiny and some people choose failure
let’s be honest
and that and that’s okay too because
that was their choice i two two things i
want to add on there so first one you
were talking about the idea that you
know people are having to invest in
themselves to to learn skills to learn
new new methods and and to take these
into new endeavors right they could have
used old methods and continue to make
money and and so a really good example
of this is last monday uh there was a
new show on muddy waters media last
monday night and it was fantastic
because it was a liberty round table and
i believe that this is your first
podcast as well as
ashley greer smooth’s first podcast and
so the two of you guys are creating a
liberty round table where you guys are
having people of of a spectrum of of
ideologies to come together and talk
about a specific topic
i i think that there’s an assumption out
there that podcasting because there’s so
many podcasters out there that you just
literally fire up your computer turn on
your webcam and then you go um
but you guys we sat down for a little
while i know you guys have reached out
to other podcasters other people who
have created platforms to be able to to
develop this
you guys are going into this trying to
be as equipped as possible
but as equipped a as much time the in
resources you guys have allocated to
this there’s no guarantee of success now
you guys are on money waters media so
you’re guaranteed to have technical
issues which happened and it was amazing
because i love you guys because you guys
fought through it but um
this just it’s the perfect thing right
because there’s so much there’s so much
potential there and you guys are tapping
into that i’m so excited for that so
next show is going to be uh october 4th
so it’ll be the first monday and then
after that it will be the second monday
of every month you guys gotta check out
uh my good friend sean hickman and
ashley grier smooth as they hold the
liberty round table here on muddy waters
make sure you guys check in for that um
and i forgot my second point because i’m
so excited about
plugging the first one
what was it what was your last last
couple points
could the second point have been that we
are going to have a special guest on
that round table
special ah well i will definitely be
there um i don’t know about special
i don’t know about special but we will
have a definitely a good time with that
no it was it was it was to the point
that you were making um towards the end
your fantastic beautiful monologue see
this is this
is pause for a moment this is why i love
sean everybody because sean
he doesn’t have a script in front of him
we didn’t have show notes we didn’t have
a a spiel to go from
but this man is able to take an idea and
run a full-fledged monologue because as
you guys can see as his virtual
background there these are books that he
has memorized and he is able to just
sound so prolific and amazing uh every
time that he opens his mouth and so uh
this is why we had to make sure we had
sean come on but
but yeah so it’s it’s
i i
i i have to digress for a minute so
the idea of free market so minimum wage
this is this is a common talking point
um we’re seeing where some people say
the minimum wage is the right point
right now where it’s 7.25 and we can see
there’s not very many advocates for that
but we see a lot of advocates out there
advocating for 15 minimum wage uh
recently there was an article i believe
it was in new york time saying look
inflation has hurt so bad that 15 an
hour isn’t going to fix this we’re gonna
have to go move it up somewhere else um
what is it
within individual rights and with free
market principles where is the minimum
wage where’s the correct minimum wage
and and how does this serve society
i i guess i could go technical which
would bore people um or we could just
have a conversation in which um
uh we we could talk more practically
about what the the the result will be um
for those that are interested in
understanding why central planning of
this kind will fail always has failed
and will continue to fail uh you can
look up the uh
economic uh
calculation problem it’s otherwise known
as the ecp it is the
it’s an economic theory uh that mises
came up with and uh and hayek uh kind of
added to that
that illustrates
concretely why central planning doesn’t
work from an economic standpoint why
pure socialism pure communism would
never work and so rather than bore you
with all of the details of that i just
teased that you know go out there and do
some research about the ecp uh and that
alone will help you in your
conversations when you’re talking with
people that are entertaining these kind
of ideas and saying how it would work on
an economic
perspective to to understand the
technical reasons why it can’t work uh
and why it hasn’t worked um the um
but but to understand more in more
practical terms like what what what a
minimum wage is and what it
aims to do and how how it fails in
accomplishing these goals
you have to think about uh you know what
what is what is a wage anyways right you
uh you’re exchanging your labor uh for
performing a a job that that is supposed
to provide value if the more value that
you provide the more money that you
would make this idea that you are going
to arbitrarily just just say okay no
we’re going to say that uh there’s a
floor on which you’re going to pay for
this labor um is
is riddled with a lot of problems uh but
first and foremost it’s you have to
understand that if you’re going to force
the entrepreneur or the company the
employer whoever is paying the wage
of what they can assign
you’re not necessarily guarant
guaranteeing a a positive outcome for
the individual because
when you start doing this what happens
is employers start looking at how
profitable their business is what they
can afford and so what happens is you
start seeing hours get slashed you start
seeing people let go and you start
looking for new ways to get the job done
that doesn’t require paying for labor
which is in an environment where we look
at automation that is looking to replace
human beings
uh all you’re going to do is continue to
exacerbate this problem and and uh and
and put the automation um you know road
map uh you know into acceleration mode
uh because
people that that are paying someone to
get a job done are paying to get the job
and i it’s interesting that we always
look at oh well this individual deserves
a living wage well that’s that’s that’s
nice thing to say but
when we start talking about how do we
make that happen we we oftentimes we
gloss over the idea of well what is it
that they’re doing are they doing
something that requires a lot of skill
and uh are they doing something that
differentiates them from the rest of the
the market
are there jobs out there that um
you know that are plentiful for them to
get and what is the the rate of pay
that’s commonly associated with that and
this this notion
that you’re going to just continue to
fix it by increasing how much the
employer pays
to what end and my question would be as
they float uh you know numbers like 15
minimum wage my question is if raising
the minimum wage was the solution why
would we stop at fifteen dollars an hour
why can’t we make it thirty dollars an
hour why not make it a hundred dollars
an hour if if just simply passing a law
that states that we pay people more is
is the solution then certainly paying
them more would be better i i think the
reason we don’t get into those
conversations is because we understand
at a fundamental level that this is not
fixing the problem the other thing that
it ignores is that in different regions
of the world uh you have different costs
of living right so if you take somebody
that’s living in the san francisco bay
area or new york city or or some other
uh you know
high rent district uh the the ability to
pay your bills pay your rent pay for
all of all of the conveniences that
you’re looking for in life um
setting a national minimum wage that’s
the same in louisville kentucky as it is
in san francisco are like
like what sense would that make the the
uh the economic factors are completely
different and so
my my thought on in minimum wage i don’t
support it at all to be quite honest and
when i say that i normally get oh well
then what would you advocate for you
know slave wages no i i would not
advocate for that at all i would i would
uh look to the to the fact that there
are businesses that pay really well and
there are companies that want good
people with good skills and so you need
to figure out what are the skills that
are in high demand how do i get these
skills and as freedom loving people what
we need to do is make sure that the
gateways for people to obtain those
skills those hurdles are removed so
there’s access to education and there’s
access uh to uh to being able to obtain
these skills that are that that are
equal uh right i’m not looking for equal
outcomes i’m looking for the equal
access which is interesting because when
we talk about uh wanting you know people
to make more money then people this the
same people that want the minimum wage
raised are fighting you on the on the
very things that would allow somebody to
increase their wage
way above minimum rate but to maximum
rates and that’s things like school
choice and and that’s fighting against
thing like occupational um you know
licensing fees and and so it it makes no
sense if they’re if they’re the the same
group that are creating policies that
make life more expensive for everyone
including raising our taxes right
and but then they want to fix the
problem by saying well we’ll just pass
another piece of legislation that says
that you make more money well until you
fix the problem of taxing us too much
and and making it cost prohibitive for
people to start their own business and
and uh and not advocating for people to
uh to choose what type of education they
have so they can obtain the skills they
need to compete i really don’t want to
entertain the thought i think it’s i
think it’s naive i think it’s immature
and i think it’s silly to advocate for a
minimum wage and anyone that’s listening
to this that thinks that that i’m
misunderstanding something i would just
i would just like you to break down
everything that i just said and ask
yourself what side of that argument that
you’re on because if you’re not for
school choice and if you’re if you’re
looking to raise taxes you are not
trying to help the person pay their
bills at home you’re just not and so you
need to get straight about what your own
thinking is on these on these issues and
then we can have a conversation about
how wages should uh you know should be
distributed oh you like that i love you
so many
hard-hitting impactful things in there
right cost of living as soon as you
mention the cost of living
between um la and san francisco in the
same state
median household income or medium
household uh cost
is eighty thousand and a hundred and
forty thousand dollars
cost of living between greenville south
carolina near where i live in l.a or
sorry in san francisco cost of living is
a hundred and one point four percent
different the idea that a federal
minimum wage is going to solve the
problems for san francisco people will
not be able to afford to live there so
they’re gonna need to raise that up
higher people here in greenville are
gonna be living like
like uh
the centralized idea here of trying to
solve this
as you said right it’s silly it’s
nonsensical and it’s it’s more
disruptive than than good and and
certainly there’s legislative not
legislation there was a report done by
the cbo right a government agency when
they were advocating for the raising the
minimum wage to 15 an hour i believe it
was in 2020 if not it was 2019.
when they try to push that uh democrats
were like look in the cbo report
900 000 people are gonna be better off
in this country nine hundred thousand
people are going to be better off
they’re gonna have more wages they’re
gonna have more take-home they’re gonna
be doing better off and then
we’re just gonna ignore the rest of what
the cbo said because what it followed up
was was 1.5 million people were going to
be making
the true minimum wage of zero dollars
because they would be let off
1.5 million people will be hurt for the
benefit of 900 000
or 900 000 people and and this is true
right this is just exactly what you were
saying because we’re not addressing the
problem and and we see this all too
often when when we try to legislate to
fix a problem
we’re not looking at the source of the
problem right cost of living is
incredibly high and as you mentioned
right this is this is because the
barriers for entrepreneurship is way too
high through occupational licensing
through regulatory capture through uh
through the different laws and barriers
and hurdles that are put in place of
business owners um through the through
the mandates of minimum wage and through
benefits and everything else and and
yeah it would be great to have just all
the benefits thrown at every one of your
employees because that’s that’s what we
would like to have but the problem is is
that we’ve made it to where it’s so
incredibly difficult for small
businesses to survive because we have
these good intentions that we don’t we
don’t actually address
what is going to come forward from those
and so just as
combining all the things that you’re
talking about like being taxed too high
on the individual side or on the
business side
tariffs of of making businesses have to
spend more money in order to buy
sub quality services or or products here
um i would love to i would love to get
you on a tirade about tariffs but
you know
when we had the the trump tariff war if
if we can describe it as such right it
was it was because we had to punch china
for china being to
having too strong of a grip instead of
addressing the problems here in america
of why businesses can’t be successful
because there’s been too many barriers
because there’s too much taxes because
there’s too much
too much control that we would rather
send it halfway across the world to
china it would be cheaper to send it
halfway across the world to china get a
service and send it all the way back or
just to buy their products
we’re just merely trying to give the
businesses here
a better fighting chance by punching
other people rather than setting them
free and giving them these good free
economic principles that allows them to
be successful and allows them to compete
against china and and we would see a
much better end result from that and
wages would go up
am i am i speaking just like crazy
people here or or is that like is there
some economic thinking that more
products you sell
the better off your people are going to
be and then as a better better they get
the the more that they’re going to
advocate for higher wages for themselves
and everything else
yeah successful companies want the best
people uh and in order to get the best
people you pay the best wages
and uh
and so that’s a twofold problem right um
one of them you have to you have to be
in position yourself to be able to get
that job in order to have that job you
have to you have to have marketable
um and so
as you’re
as you’re spending your time uh you know
maintaining your entry level job and not
uplifting your skills you’re not putting
yourself in position for those jobs but
the other problem that’s a lot more
pernicious and something that we need to
think about is that these large
are unfairly uh setting the market um
you know where
they they they get subsidies from the
uh they get tax breaks from the
government i don’t mind tax breaks but
why don’t we get the same tax breaks to
small businesses right and and then and
then the legislation gets written by the
lawyers working for these large
and when you do that when you combine
all of those factors you’re making it
very difficult on local businesses
uh you know want to be uh entrepreneurs
would be entrepreneurs and all of the
people that would benefit from working
in those types of companies and so
uh if you want to help small businesses
if you want to uh you know explode
growth outside of those those those
massive companies you know in in banking
and tech uh if you want to if you want
to support those things there’s a few
things that you can do stop voting for
higher taxes uh stop voting uh you know
stop stop voting for the laws that were
written uh for you know to benefit these
big companies and stop voting in the
politicians that are that are financed
by those big companies and it’s
interesting because we do have
candidates on the ballot uh that that
would reject that that type of uh policy
making the unfortunate thing is we also
have a system that doesn’t allow those
politicians even on the debate stage to
talk about these issues and so it
becomes an issue where uh we have to sit
on muddy water media having a
conversation about this
and hopefully when people hear this they
can think about the next time that
there’s a bill locally that’s going to
raise their taxes no matter how fancy
it’s worded no matter what benefit
they’re trying to sell you just think
about the last you know you know i’m
almost 50 years old if i look back in my
voting history which dates back to you
know the early 90s
every ballot there’s some sort of tax
increase and the way that they they
position it they never say it’s a tax
increase they talk about they talk in
loving terms about how it’s going to
help the school how it’s going to help
the parks how it’s going to help to this
help with that and people that say well
i’d like to help those things uh you
know just fall for it and say yeah let
me vote for this tax and and so
you know if if you want government to
stop spending so much money uh quit
giving them the green light to do that
you know i mean you you do have a say in
these things and uh unfortunately people
get tricked and oftentimes uh it’s it’s
we see this in big cities where um where
a particular party
dominates big cities and they advocate
for a particular bill they push a bill
and then the people that you know
identify you know with that letter they
just see that that uh their favorite
politician the one that they that they
voted for is supporting this they don’t
look at it they don’t pay attention to
it if you really want more money on your
check if you want life to be more
affordable you have to stop advocating
and co-signing on policies that are
raising your cost of living that’s it’s
that it’s that simple yeah no absolutely
and and
while you’re talking about these
measures um there’s one measure that
that really stuck out in my head for a
local one here um thankfully i i live in
a state where in our constitution our
state’s constitution it’s basically one
topic one bill you can’t you can’t
divert and throw a bunch of other stuff
on there but we we had a gas tax raise
and of course gas tax means roads
roads guys we need roads roads are great
the roads are fantastic they get you
from from your neighbors or from your
house to your neighbors to the to the
businesses to
to school
where you can get inundated with with
you know all that good stuff
questionable um and everything else but
you know we always see these increases
right we want to see these increases the
government says we need to increase the
revenue and then we’ll we’ll spend more
and we’ll fix these issues um but we
never actually address the the um
inflation there we go we never actually
address the inflation which means that
while they’re taking more and more of
our money uh your money is also worth
less and less and and certainly at the
same time because they’re able to just
arbitrarily say look we’re gonna pass
this and certainly they use their
politicians to do this there’s no
accountability there because it’s not
their money it’s your money and and when
you spend somebody else’s money you’re
gonna be a lot less
careful with it than when you spend your
own right you worked hard for your money
you’re gonna you’re gonna care about you
know you’re investing in the good stuff
right you you don’t wanna get something
that’s gonna break the next day
but what we have is these continual
promises right for the last 200 years or
so of we’re going to fix your roads guys
and just let’s raise it another half a
percent another percent another you know
and and
what we see is no changes to the roads
but we see an increase in our money to
coming out uh both through the inflation
and through through taxes um and so
eventually we have to we have to take we
have to swallow that hard pill of
they’re not they don’t care
they don’t care they want their their
green line at the end they want it to
stay green they want a higher revenue
than they did the year before
and they’re gonna play pay you lip
service maybe they’ll fix that one road
maybe they’ll fix this other highway
but if you drive into south carolina if
coming if you come from north carolina
into south carolina you’re gonna feel
the roads before you see the sign
we have this problem where we raise our
taxes because the other states have
higher taxes we should have higher taxes
okay can we have better roads no no no
no guys we these are these are trademark
south carolina roads you’ve got potholes
everywhere this is beautiful
if they ever fix the roads jason if they
ever fix the roads to your liking where
you would say wow these roads are the
best roads ever then they couldn’t come
to you and tell you that they’re going
to fix the roads they can’t fix the
roads they they need that as leverage to
ask for money again later
well so
one quick pushback on this because we
have a giant corrupt guy here in south
carolina his name is senator hugh
leatherman and he is roughly around 9
700 years old but he’s the
longest-setting senator he is the most
powerful man in our general assembly um
his son-in-law runs the d.o.t
when um he wants his roads for his
people fixed his roads are literally
paved in gold like these are beautiful
gorgeous you can eat off of them they
there’s if you find a pothole like he
will give you 500 to fix it like
he’s paying you so that he can fix that
road so that he can have an impeccable
road um this shows you that he’s in it
for himself
because he wants his roads to be nice
with uh uh
i want to say that the population the
population of drivers is roughly around
10 go through this county of florence
county here in south carolina um which
is where the presidential debate was uh
back in 2020 if you guys remember that
a third a third of every dollar is going
to florence county to fix those roads so
if they’re fixing their roads they’re
probably corrupt if the rest of the
roads are all [ __ ] in a pothole ridden
but you’ve got like this little golden
area that’s a corrupt politician almost
guaranteed but in in general i do agree
they’re never going to fix the roads
they don’t fix their problems because
these are oftentimes right when we see
republicans come out for pro-life
measures they they generally don’t
actually follow through on those because
that’s a big ticket for getting votes um
they have to stay in power
because they love the power because it’s
yeah governments governments don’t fix
problems they they subsidize them it’s
it’s it’s their it’s their their role to
uh to figure out how you can move the
needle just far enough to get people to
want you in power
but not far enough where they don’t need
you in power
they’re nev they’re never going to do uh
you’re never going to get your money’s
worth from a politician no
especially when when we talk we’re
speaking earlier about like you know a
little guy being able to compete with a
big guy and and how you do that is by
letting him be able to fight against
this who is actually competing against
the government right now it’s a monopoly
it’s an absolute monopoly no one is able
to compete against the government on on
all the different things that they’ve
decided upon this is why school choice
doesn’t pass nationwide because they
don’t want to actually have competition
this is why more than 60 of kids go to
public schools is because for these kids
they can’t go to another school because
their parents money their taxes are
still going to those public schools so
we have we’ve taken the opportunity away
from people
by forcing them to pay for the
government decision
limp thereby limiting private
opportunities and then in many
circumstances it’s it’s completely
illegal to have the private
entrepreneurs be able to actually rival
against against the monopoly of the
state and and so
if we want a better society we have to
have those free market principles we
have to have the idea that
if you have a better way
society would benefit from you being
able to bring that idea forward um
trying to run it through congress i mean
we’ve seen how how they earmark
everything how they add taxes and
subsidize and and
they pick their winners and losers um by
virtue of this
if we want a better society it has to be
through those free market values now how
does this get back to the individual
rights because i we’ve had a lot of free
market but but i want to move on to the
individual side of things as well
you know we could talk about like our
own individuals of like us trying to to
accrue more wealth or or more status or
more education more wisdom and
everything else through all these means
how does how does the free market
beyond just the entrepreneurs how does
how does letting the free market exist
how does that
help every individual
yeah well it
individual liberty is
is something where we it touches every
facet and so many issues uh if i start
listing them uh we could go in in
tangents in a million different
here here’s here’s here’s an easy one uh
the the right which is constitutionally
uh protected uh to be able to bear arms
uh individuals should be able to buy a
firearm and and now we have state
governments that are trying to
circumvent uh the federal government
with with uh telling you what you can
buy what you can’t buy um uh you know
instituting uh you know
new fees new taxes bullet taxes trying
to make it too expensive where an
individual can no longer afford to even
have the right to have a firearm and
when you think about what a firearm is
for there’s multiple things right
the constitution didn’t mince words you
know it was it was uh shall not be
infringed and when you look at the
intent of why the first amendment was
there was in case the government got too
tyrannical you could you could defend
yourself but even if you didn’t buy that
argument which i by the way dude i think
a lot of people uh
look at uh you they think in the comfort
of their own home that oh it could never
happen here i mean look look throughout
human history
you don’t have to go too far back it
happens it happens more often than it
should and it usually uh starts with uh
taking people’s weapons right you take
you disarm them and then and then the
charity comes
and so when when i look at uh you know
just something as simple as the uh the
the individual freedom to purchase a
firearm when i look at the way that the
the economics ties into this they make
it so expensive where you’re basically
saying that as a poor person you can’t
have a gun so if you’re wealthy enough
you can have a gun and if you think
outside of you know protecting yourself
from a tyrannical government and you
look at the other practical uses of a
firearm you could hunt with it you can
defend yourself with it you’re now
saying that that somebody doesn’t have
the right to feed themselves doesn’t
have the right to protect themselves and
and who are you saying can’t do it
you’re not saying that that anybody that
all people can’t do it you’re just
simply saying that poor people can’t do
it and so
when we when we think about individual
liberty um you know
again they’re not saying that people
can’t have guns there’s they’re simply
saying that that we’re going to make it
so expensive we’re going to make it cost
prohibitive for you to do this i mean
even ak-47s you could still buy now uh
if if uh if if they were if they were
made before a certain year if you’re
willing to surrender your fourth
amendment right if you’re willing to put
up a bond there’s a lot of hurdles you
have to go through and the street value
on that is is astronomical
so again
you have to be wealthy in order to be
able to freely purchase what you want
which i’m hoping the economics of uh
building building out um
uh uh you know uh
uh you know your home builds via a 3d
printer right now it’s not as cost
effective as it should be but it is
important i just went to a class over
this weekend that was great uh and
essentially you can make your own guns
uh you just can’t distribute them you
can’t sell them but you can make your
own so i uh highly advocate for anyone
that is worried about where the
government might be going on infringing
on that personal liberty uh you could
buy a great 3d printer for about for
under 200. and uh and so i would i would
look into that uh hopefully the cost of
of printing them continues to go down so
we could we could make that uh more
beneficial but uh again that’s that’s a
way that you can protect your right to
you know to have a firearm so that
that’s one area um we could we could hit
many others but uh that that’s one that
uh hits home for me no that definitely
it’s definitely a
soft spot in my heart too for especially
the guns thing uh because it’s it is
right it’s a it’s a tax on being poor
we don’t want you to be able to defend
yourself we don’t want and and certainly
as this society is looking right um we
many talking points and whether we agree
or disagree with them um but the notion
there that the the middle class is
shrinking and it’s going away and we’re
having you know the perception there is
that the poor people are growing right
we’re having more and more people that
are unable to to perform for themselves
um unable to protect themselves unable
to provide for themselves or their
and and they put these
new taxes they put these new barriers
there for people to defend themselves
um and as you were saying right if
you’re rich enough if you can put the
money up and you can file all of your uh
you can get all of your certifications
you become an ffl you get become a class
you can have fully automatic firearms
still and and
you have to get one that i believe the
year was 1987. uh any firearm before
then that was fully automatic you could
still get those today now
the atf and the cia went through and
bought up a bunch of these destroyed a
massive amount of them in order to
lower the supply while the demands
remain the same so it’s caused the
prices the skyrocket so now people don’t
have these things um which i think is
it’s your right to have them it there
shouldn’t be a fine there shouldn’t be a
fee there shouldn’t be a tax for you
practicing whatever you see fit for
protecting yourself now oftentimes
people say that this is that the second
amendment is is what we use to justify
all these mass killings and everything
else but i i think when we look at the
individual rights of you being able to
protect yourself and and the cdc having
a study back in 2014 before they were
prohibited from looking at firearm
safety stats um between 500 000 and 3
defensive use of firearms each and every
year far outweighing
the the uh events of casualties or or
malicious events
of violence against people so
second amendment gun safety
it leads to a safer society an armed
society is a polite society i i
i grew up uh from many of my years back
in alaska where it was in constitutional
carry state constitutional open state um
i still remember seeing trucks the back
window of their trucks you had a gun
rack of not just one shotgun but like a
rifle and a shotgun like they didn’t
care what kind of animal they were
running into they didn’t care what kind
of road rager was there if they felt
their life was threatened they had a
means of being able to defend themselves
and not just there on the window but
likely they also had a
a glock or something down in near their
legs i mean these these were people that
you just waved at them sorry you cut me
off have a great day like
you didn’t see road rage accidents you
didn’t see people like just trying to
get out there and beat each other up
because people like
you know what it’s really not worth it
yeah that guy’s a dick that guy’s a dick
he pulled he pulled out in front of me
he’s a dick
go on about your your day i it’s not
worth it for me or maybe it is maybe i’m
gonna flash my gun at him and be like
hey [ __ ] like you’re coming at
me and i’m i’m not okay with this
we we there there’s kind of an equalizer
there and so people have to gauge
and and and i don’t think that putting
more barriers in the way of people being
able to defend themselves as we as we
talk about like societies across the
country um a young single mother of
three kids in chicago
shouldn’t have to have extra taxes and
barriers in front of her for being able
to defend herself right chicago is a
common talking point for people for gun
violence and rightfully so there’s so
much gang violence there’s so many
killings happening there it’s it’s
why are we erecting hurdles
for these single parents why are you
erecting hurdles for people for them to
practice their self-defense in defense
of others
right which is inherent inalienable
cannot be severed
it it it’s it’s
it’s frustrating for me and like i said
it’s a soft spot in my heart i i talk to
democrats and republicans on this
because it’s it’s one of those things
that we can we can make movement by
messaging it the proper way
and and we have to we have to not just
for the sake of of our own individual
freedoms but for society’s betterment
absolutely uh we we could talk about
this one
i mean i i want to try to touch on some
of the the hotbed ones right so when we
think of like
liberty for uh you know who you can
marry um i think that there’s this
cultural war of uh and and the
libertarian party has uh has been there
since day one at advocating for same-sex
marriage where
i have a slightly nuanced approach on
that where it’s um
i don’t think the government should be
involved in the marriage licensing
business period um
this idea of
you know waging a culture war over who
should who shouldn’t get married like
why not take that um
that that authority away from the
government why why should i have to pay
a fee to the government to decide you
know who i’m going to spend the rest of
my life with and
and then and then it’s it’s even more
expensive if you decide that you don’t
want to be married anymore
it becomes this huge racket and so i
think that
uh you know whether whether you’re gay
whether you’re straight wherever you
fall on that issue i think there’s a
vested interest for everyone to say hey
i don’t think the government should have
a say in this thing at all uh you know
they they definitely uh have no right
telling people who they can love and the
fact that they’re going to try to turn
it into a profit sitter when somebody is
in love by uh you know by paying them a
a licensing fee just seems uh ridiculous
to me yes and
and it’s also like why are we
incentivizing it like you know if people
want to get married let them let them
get married if they want to stay single
let them stay single like
let people
freely choose what they want to do we
have blurred the lines and and just
accepted that it’s the government’s role
to do to have a say in all of these
things that society couldn’t possibly
work out any of these challenges on
their own without the help of the
government and and and you know that
would just be one example of where i
just feel like we’re fighting the wrong
fight there like we shouldn’t be
fighting for marriage equality we should
be fighting for you know government stay
the [ __ ] out of marriage right like
that’s that’s the issue and and then
that way you have true equality because
you have the freedom to do whatever it
is that you choose to do uh provided
you’re not hurting anybody else you’re
all good yeah as long as there’s consent
between the two people do what you want
to do and and
and having this discussion with
government advocates i found that their
their strongest argument if you will is
for not for the life of people but for
the death and people and so um the
government needs to have a say because
if if
should i die right they want to be able
to redistribute my property and
everything else and so having a marriage
would be a good way for that and and
i have a will i have lawyers i have
i have a system in place that can that
works just fine without that um now
granted i am i’m also
i’ve had a will since i was in the navy
you know going on my first underway
not guarantee you’re coming back so i
had a will from then um so i i i’m not
in a circumstance that a lot of people
have but granted i don’t think that this
is this should be something that is so
incredibly involved from the government
right we shouldn’t have this it there’s
no necessity for it and i completely
agree with you the other argument of
course is on taxes and it’s just like
civil unions so somebody who’s not
married by under with a license but live
together for a certain period of time
based on your state um is now considered
married even for taxes and so it’s like
so the government doesn’t need to be
involved once again like
i i completely agree we need to have the
argument of of government nullification
on marriages absolutely through and
through on on on that and on sex like
two people consenting to have sex i
don’t care what the terms and conditions
like the one of the most frustrating
things for me is is of course the the
conversation every libertarian likes to
go to is of course sex work and it’s
just like
you know sex work is absolutely legal as
long as you record and plan to
to sell the videos at the end of it um
it’s just as soon as you you don’t have
the the video being taken and money’s
being transferred that somehow is
illegal it’s just like we have this
entire system all kind of screwed up
because the government
is stupid um it’s ineffective and it’s
inefficient right prostitution is
something that’s been around for forever
and and it of course is we’ve discussed
so many different black market topics
here on the show before uh you know we
had the war on drugs and and i’ve
touched on
on some other ones but
putting a war on prostitution or sex
work isn’t going to make sex work safer
it’s not going to make it better for
anyone who’s actually engaged in this
and we’ve seen this time and time again
of course sex trafficking is wrong right
doing this without somebody’s consent
but at the end of the day right what two
consenting people are doing with each
other whether it’s a marriage and union
or whatever kind of of of coming
togetherness it is
if it’s true
transactional of of money or or services
or whatever else this is this should be
allowed and this
i agree with the the nullification of
government involvement on it
yeah the sex work one’s interesting uh
sex is perfectly legal to uh to give
consensually but uh but once once you
profit from it uh then then that’s
problematic and so i i don’t understand
what the challenge is
it’s beautiful but
so we’ve hit two two big topics um
guns sex or sex and marriage
what’s the other what’s the other hot
topic one that you think that we would
be remiss without missing for the last
and final
yeah i mean when we talk about our
personal freedoms everyone
depending on w
we’ve kind of
jumped into these tribes and if you come
from from uh you know the tribe that
wears the d is a symbol or a tribe that
wears an r as a symbol uh you think of
your personal liberty in these different
ways and i think
from my perspective
the big recognition that we have to do
is is recognize that even if it’s not a
personal liberty that i
am affected by
we should all be advocating for all of
those liberties that do not infringe on
other people’s rights and and so
when when i when i look at
something like let’s say uh
a mandate for example on uh on
you want to pick this i was hoping
you’re good
you know
somehow somehow this uh infectious
disease became a
uh a political uh football to be kicked
around and uh i i’m somebody that
due to my own personal circumstances i
decided to get the vaccine and like i’m
sure there are people listening going oh
no you’re crazy uh i have to hate you i
have to end this segment right now no no
i’m just kidding
it it could happen but but but the the
reality is i love the fact that i can
choose that i love the idea that i can
choose to to do my own research i can
choose to get it or i could choose not
to get it the idea though now that we
have a government that feels that they
um you know
step in with medical coercion
uh and and force people with what
they’re going to do
uh in terms of a procedure that uh
and i’m not gonna get into you know the
efficacy of the vaccine again i did the
research and i got it right so i’m not
gonna have that conversation but i will
say that it is a hard line for me
against these mandates because uh you
should be able to freely choose what to
do and and when you when you hear the
arguments of why you must mandate this
they don’t make any sense we we’re we’re
talking about um you know something that
is designed to protect the self right it
you could still catch it you could still
spread it and so the idea that that that
me getting vaccinated is going to help
other people if i believed that i would
still probably say that there’s a better
way outside of the uh of mandating it
because the truth of the matter is is if
you don’t want to catch it you still
have responsibility of where you choose
to go and what you choose to do if you
want the vaccine get the vaccine guess
what it’s available you can get the
vaccine we there are places in this
world where you don’t have access to it
we should love the idea that we can get
it can’t get it but the fact that this
is a political issue
um i i think it’s crazy to me i’ve heard
the body autonomy argument and i think
it’s a good one because you shouldn’t be
able to tell somebody what they uh
shouldn’t do with their body i think
that that’s uh that that sound
if we wanted to get more dramatic than
that we could talk about what happened
with medical coercion after world war ii
uh you know the the nazis were guilty of
medical coercion and uh they went to
nuremberg and they got hung and now i’m
not saying dr fauci should get hung all
i’m saying is that if he went to trial
i’d be okay with that
i love it i love it no and and
so we are on the opposite sides of this
when it comes to personal choice on this
right i i have not taken the vaccine my
wife cannot have the vaccine
and i’m right there with you right i
i have friends that have been vaccinated
my family members have been vaccinated
i’m all for it everyone should have that
choice i’m against it personally you’re
for it personally and that’s
this is what libertarianism is
the idea that my decisions are my own
your decisions are your own and we don’t
have to have an arbitrator to decide on
my decision it has to be your decision
or your decision has to be my decision
um and and just to hammer some of the
points you’re making and and i love each
and every one of them because they’re so
important right it does make people
safer we’ve seen this it makes it where
you’re less likely to uh to cl or
to have the the
uh the coronavirus itself you’re less
likely to have devastating results you
can still die from it of course your
but it does greatly diminish the
opportunities of of having catastrophic
uh situations so this this has to be on
the mind of everyone as they’re weighing
these out the pros and cons of both ways
and and as you said right it’s not a
hundred percent and it isn’t it is
and and so we know that
and so we have to allow for people to
decide on which trade-off they want
because remember there are no solutions
only trade-offs so do you want to take
the risk because there has been there
have been some people not very many uh
comparatively but there have been some
people who have negative effects from
the coveted vaccine itself and so we
cannot make that decisions for others we
have to allow for people to make those
decisions so from the muddy waters team
every single one of us have said this
and i think this is the first time i’m
saying it live on a show
get the vaccine if you want to if you
don’t want to i support you i support
you either way i am personally not
taking the vaccine right now i may in a
couple weeks may in a couple months who
knows what i’m going to do but but until
then it’s my choice even if the
government mandates it it’s still my
and and i want to i want to plug back to
two weeks ago when i had dwayne lester
on and one of the questions that he had
asked was
if you
you know a just government collects its
power from the people and how can you
give the government a power that you do
not have i do not have the power to tell
sean he cannot have the vaccine sean
does not have the power to tell me i
have to have the vaccine so the
government doesn’t have that authority
and that’s why we are seeing so many
people on both sides of this equation
both sides on this topic coming out here
and and supporting
the libertarian position of make your
own decision
and this is what’s so incredibly
important this is what’s beautiful and
and i’m glad that this is our final
conversation piece because this is how
we actually see the libertarian
infiltrate itself into the republican
and democratic talking points because
we’re seeing democrats who are typically
viewed at in this topic as being pro
vaccine we’re seeing republicans who are
typically against the vaccine in in
large swaths some of them are very
trumpian and and so that’s a different
beast to handle himself but we are
seeing people from both sides saying
look we’re against this mandate because
it’s somebody’s decision get the vaccine
if you want to don’t get it if you don’t
want to we are seeing us actually
infiltrate the culture we are actually
influencing the culture and this is
what’s so important this is why it’s so
amazing to have people on like sean who
just knock it out of the park with with
absolute logic and intellect and wisdom
and understanding of these topics
and we have to keep talking about these
things we have to keep making a
difference um i i love you sean i
appreciate you for coming on any last
words you want to want to share
no i just really appreciate you have me
on and i’m looking forward to what we’re
going to be doing on the 4th uh that’s
gonna be it’s gonna be a lot of fun and
uh just you know everything that you’ve
been doing uh inspires me uh it’s it’s
folks like yourself that have uh helped
me to get more involved locally which um
i i think is uh i’ve been on the fence
i’ve been a big l for i think 27 years
uh and uh i’m sorry small l for
27 years and uh but a big l for only six
plus months and and i trace this back to
uh you know meeting folks like yourself
that uh that have really like kind of
paved the way and shown me that uh you
know sitting on the sidelines and uh and
having opinions is not enough you gotta
roll up your sleeves you gotta get your
hands dirty a little bit and uh and so i
just wanted to thank you for uh you know
being one of those people that’s
inspired me i appreciate it so much sean
i i love you man i appreciate you you’re
always more than welcome to come on
whenever you have a topic you want to
share you’re more than welcome to pitch
it at me i’ll i’ll follow up with you of
course and uh i i love you and
appreciate you man and uh just keep
being better than me at everything that
you’re doing uh we’ll get your beard up
but um but with that guys i do want to
plug uh we do have cajun libertarian
live on his page coming up right now you
guys are more than welcome to hop over
check out cajun he’s normally here
friday nights but
for the rest of the week tuesday night
tomorrow night you’ve got spike and matt
go over to anchor dot fm slash muddy
waters of freedom and drop them an
anchor call in moment you’ll get heard
live on the show tomorrow night always
fantastic then wednesday nights by cohen
with my fellow americans thursday night
writer’s block with matt wright and then
of course as i’ve already mentioned from
bayous to igloos friday night with cajun
and eskimo libertarian it is one hell of
a week here on muddy waters media you
don’t want to miss a thing and make sure
if you guys haven’t already get over to
anchor dot fm slash muddied waters of
freedom slash
subscribe join in on the exclusive
community and get in on the great
content that we’re about to give y’all
so without further ado i love you sean i
appreciate you so much i hope you have a
great night and for the rest of you guys
stay good stay loving and keep spreading
the love appreciate y’all take care

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Jason Lyon
Jason Lyon
Jason Lyon - USN Submarine Vet -Minarchist/Constitutionalist - #Liberty advocate - Principles over party - Constitution over Idolatry
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