(((My Fellow Americans))) #109: Olga Meshoe Washington

DISCLOSURE

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i’ll be buried in my [Music] that is [Music] before i become [Music] change [Music] i’ll be buried in my dreams [Music] that is [Music] [Music] but it seems like since that day [Music] we have sorely changed [Music] oh [Music] [Applause] [Music] south carolina you’re watching my fellow americans with your host spy cullen it’s me thank you oh thank you so much thank you thank you thank you thank you oh thank you keep tapping thank you clap clap for the honest miracle how would we know how would we know that you were here for the miracle if you didn’t keep clapping welcome to michael americans i am literally spike cohen thank you for joining me on this wednesday august what is today august the 11th thank you for joining me on this special day what makes this day so special you’re here thank you for joining me this is a muddy waters media production check us out everywhere on all social media applications on all uh podcasting platforms on everything check us out on uh multiple extremist 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the second largest caucus in the libertarian party which is it says many things both good and bad but uh if you’d like to become a part of the fastest growing and second largest caucus uh within the next year we will overtake the to become the largest caucus you can be a part of that too uh if you want to become a part of it go to the facebook group libertarian party waffle house caucus and if you’d like to become an official voting member of the waffle house caucus which means nothing because we don’t actually vote on it we don’t actually do anything but if you’d like to become a voting member uh if in at any point we start voting uh then go to muddywatersmedia.com store and pick up a waffle house caucus button or shirt kids love it gravy king cumberland cannabis if you’re looking for high quality cbd and delta eight products uh that are viable ethical and effective i’m told that’s what they are i’ve never actually used any of these but if you would like to try for yourself and see if that catch phrase is actually true go to cumberlandcannabisco.com joe soloski is running to be the next governor of pennsylvania joe soloski is the key to pennsylvania’s success and uh and by the way that’s a that’s a a pun there because it’s the keystone state i did i didn’t know that um anyway uh if you’d like to help joe become the first libertarian governor ever then go to joe soloski.com that’s j-o-e-s-o-l dot com mud water the most accurately uh accurately named or appropriately named product that we’ve ever had on this show because we’re muddy waters media uh if you woke up today and said my gosh if i never have another cup of coffee in my life it’ll be too soon well then i have some great news for you because instead you could be drinking this weird assortment of things masala chai mushrooms cacao whatever cacao is uh turmeric and sea salt and pepper and that’s it uh then you can go to muddy waters media dot com slash mud and try that that tastes exactly like you think those things would taste it’s not it’s i mean coffee doesn’t taste good either okay so you know this is about the same as that and it has about what’s one-seventh the caffeine of coffee which is just enough to get you as hyped up as i am right now but not so much that you then start crying by the end of the day which is what i would do if i were drinking coffee i mean results may vary but you probably should not end up crying if you are i would discontinue immediately muddywatersmedia.com to get yours today thomas quiter for state senate thomas quiter runs better than the government which is funny because he’s in a wheelchair he finds this funny this is not a joke i would tell he wants me to say that so take that however you want to take it uh thomas quiter is running for state senate in the 52nd district of new york and uh he’s a fantastic guy i’ve seen him firsthand uh he is dedicated to the movement to the party and to the people of new york and if you want to help him become the first libertarian state senator in new york uh then go to tom452 that’s tomfor52.com and if you’d like to be a part of his meme contest where you can make memes like the one you’re looking at right now which is i mean he likes this stuff i’m very uncomfortable with this but he likes it uh then go to tomfor52.com ftg for meme contest jack casey has written now three books why has he not sent me an upgraded graphic that has his third book you’d have to ask him because i don’t know his books are the royal green and the in silver it’s rounded uh and also crowned by gold and are these books good i don’t know because i’ll never read them ever i refuse to read these books because if they’re good i will feel bad about making fun of them while he pays me to do so and if they’re bad then i’ll feel bad that i encourage you to buy them so you’ll have to find out for me if these books are good by going to theroyalgreen.com he says they’re good he’s not exactly unbiased he wrote them and has a vested financial interest in you buying them so i’m told by others it’s it’s good too though theroyalgreen.com fierce luxury by ashley another product i know nothing about because i don’t own any handbags i guess by proxy i do because my wife does uh fierce luxury by ashley is an online consignment shop that has uh high-end bags and accessories uh like louis vuitton chanel gucci and her herm hermes herm herms hermes her like gucci uh you can consign with ashley for a 30 fee which is i’m told by ashley is 20 less than most other consignment stores and why would ashley lie to you about that she wouldn’t you can find them online at fierce luxury by ashley.com and on facebook in their exclusive group fierce luxury by ashley and speaking of exclusivity adderpan the most horrifying game to ever be made ever i really wish that they didn’t give me money because i don’t want to encourage anyone i just if you like being scared for the rest of your life then go on to steam and you can buy adder pan for five dollars i don’t know why they made this or why anyone plays it but people like it it has lots of jump scares or as i call them panic attacks here’s here’s their description looking for a game to haunt your dreams look no further than adderpan the premier release from irvin games adderpan is a first person five night style game featuring creepy characters jump scares galore and even a few easter eggs or as i call them existential dread hidden among amongst the game files themselves join dolly and her haunted imaginary friends as you play the role of a school security guard trying to survive night shift armed only with cameras and a flashlight can you make it until morning before they get a piece of you this is literally the how they want i don’t know this will make you want to have guns in schools this game i hate i so i’m not into scary games which is why i should have never tried this but you should i guess should if you’re into such a thing i don’t i don’t know i don’t know guys but there you can choose whether you want to get it’s five dollars on steam and it’ll come with all the updates so that when it gets scarier in the future you don’t have to pay anymore which is good because you’ll be spending the rest of your money on therapy for the rest of your human existence and my final get my final uh sponsor is if uh my telling if you feel like suing someone because of the time i’ve wasted telling you about these products then i have some great news for you because if you live in florida you can sue me but i’ll actually use him to counter sue you uh his name’s chris reynolds he’s a personal injury attorney chrisreynoldslaw.com and he will get you all the money that you need if you get actually injured but don’t come to him with something like frivolous like he’s i mean he might take it i don’t know but don’t do that like have an actual injury don’t don’t call him because of this uh the intro and outro music to this and every episode of my fellow americans comes from the amazing and talented mr joe davey that’s j-o-d-a-v-i you can check him out on facebook on his soundcloud uh you can go to joedaveymusic.bandcamp.com go buy his entire discography right now well after the show go to his bandcamp buy all of it he just had a new album that dropped go and buy everything buy everything that’s there i think you can buy the entire thing you’re going to love it all of it thank you so much i’d like to thank le blue for this delicious water that i’m drinking on this episode the blue is bpa-free non-carbonated kosher certified and made in america just like me i don’t know if i’m bpa-free but if i am then i’m just like this water i’m also not kosher certified because they don’t do that to people good water though shout out to tara and turks as mom and them as always folks my guest tonight is uh actually a south african native who now lives in the u.s um she is the chief executive officer of desi international and also the regional director and educator for club z the reason i’m having her on is because she has some incredible insights into the issues affecting both south africa and the u.s and i can’t wait to talk with her about it ladies and gentlemen my fellow americans please welcome to the show uh mrs uh olga meshway washington i said that correctly right you did you did i’m really excited thank you so much olga for coming on the show i’m really excited to have you on thank you for having me spike it’s been a long time coming i’m glad we were able to pinpoint a wednesday evening and hello to all of your viewers and everybody that’s listening yeah so we have been trying to book this since i think may or june and mostly my fault but we finally got it to work and um this is it’s great i love having you on and are we allowed to say the thing about your the connection you have to the show yeah yeah sure go ahead so you are well you you tell them tell us tell us your connection to the show the connection to the show so the connection to the show is for everybody that tunes in and even if tonight was your first time there was some cool vibing music right in the beginning and the what did they call them the composer of that piece of music is my husband he is actually the reason why i am currently located in the united states of america we can go into that part of the journey later um but yes so my husband uh mr joshua washington a fine man if i may add myself he’s a person that composed the intro to my fellow americans yes joe davi himself is joe davie joshua washington uh it has it was fun watching you guys go from friends to which i was shipping that relationship very early on and was telling josh with that to then uh uh i think you went straight into boyfriend girlfriend and then fiance and then and now married with children every i’ve for many years enjoyed having one and it now culminates finally the whole purpose of having this show and having him do the intro and outro was that one day i could have you as a guest finally the show the character arc for the show has been complete and i’m very very happy to have you on so uh as you did mention you now live in the states but you are originally from you’re actually born in south africa right correct born and raised okay and so just uh so that i i cause i’m not sure if i know this were you actually alive during apartheid or did that happen after you were born i was alive um they say age ain’t nothing but a number so i’m not ashamed to disclose my age i was born in 1981 and apartheid ended in 1994 so um a good chunk of my childhood was still underneath apartheid rule okay so you have quite a few because i was trying to remember when apartheid ended i thought it was in somewhere in the mid to late 80s but until 94 that apartheid ended correct so the official date is actually when the new democracy the new government was ushered in and that happened when all people in south africa or south african citizens went to the polls and that was on the 27th of april 1994. so almost 95. wow okay well that’s i was way later than i thought it was that shows me how little i know about the history which why we have you on so you actually have quite a few memories you were what up to when you were 13 that you that you lived under apartheid was that 94 yeah i was i was 12 20 13. so before we get into how that affects today can you tell us a little about what that was like and how things changed i guess after apartheid rule ended for you personally um i do need to say that first of all i was very blessed to have parents that were careful in our upbringing so we lived under the oppression of the system that existed at the time and i’ll give some insights into that now but my parents raised my brother sister and i i’m the oldest of three kids to know that we ourselves were not oppressed the system was oppressive they looked at us they being the powers that be the white powers that be looked at people like myself and others with our same skin color same hair texture um as lesser than we were just morally inferior racially inferior but that we ourselves were not so my memories are pretty much juxtaposed against the intrinsic value that i got when i was at home based of how society saw me so society saw me and others like me as people with whom they could not sit next to by law black people were separated from white people we couldn’t go to the same public schools i was fortunate enough to attend a private school later on and so i had the option of that mix of black and whites but you still in the transportation systems you know you would still you’re separated um public beaches hospitals black and whites were separate um and even in terms of living conditions in areas where you lived in i grew up in an area in johannesburg south africa called phosphorus and it is one of many townships townships was the name that was given to the segregated areas where black people lived um oftentimes they had found us when i say they found as they moved us there but that’s got a history of its own so here we were as black people in the township and then there was no person of any other color in that particular area and so when we would leave the township then you would see people of different colors again very minimal interaction if at all so i remember you know coming home and it’s just black people and it didn’t it didn’t really i guess as a child like hit you because you know children and even as you grow up for the most part color blind but it was mainly when i went to high school as well as um university we call it university in south africa that i truly began to experience about it for myself on an individual level i mean on a family level it was there obviously there wasn’t the right to vote so 1994 was amazing for my family my parents had the right to vote now finally my grandparents had the right to vote neighbors so i remember that being a very very large celebration i think though in terms of noticing that there was a change with where south africa was going to go i can clearly remember in 1992 there was a referendum that was called by the government of the day the national party and pretty much that referendum was asking the citizens not the black citizens just the white citizens whether they actually thought um black people should be given the right to vote and there should be full integration of society by all south african citizens irrespective of race and i remember the announcement of that referendum being made known and it was a yes and there really being jubilation jubilation by obviously all black people by many white people too and a little bit of unhappiness by a significant number um of the wide society and and that for me was when as a young girl what was i 1992’s i was nine nine years old can i do my math no i was i was help me yeah i was 10. i was 11. yeah yeah i was telling over there okay it’s late at night oh by the way talking about tonight and eating coffee that mud water we need to have a conversation because i’m not sure that that mud water tastes better than coffee anyway um but i remember that being a moment when i was like wait something big is about to happen uh yeah to be clear i didn’t say it tastes better than coffee i said it tastes roughly the same as coffee uh i would definitely oh i didn’t say that so for anyone who would like to try mud water if you would um you definitely want to add some honey to it or something maybe some sugar it’s not have you tried mud water is that why you’re saying that i have i have not i have a lot but you see i can drink coffee black and i think it’s amazing so if we need to have honey to the mud water i’m not so sure okay well listen maybe you might if you can drink coffee black maybe you’d like some hot mushroom water i don’t know um so uh okay so that’s an interesting perspective so your parents told you and i want to make sure i’m saying this correctly you lived in an oppressive system but you yourselves were not oppressed can you tell me what that can we dive a little bit more into what exactly that meant because it sounds like you said some of the first things that personally affected you with apartheid was when you were older when apartheid had actually ended um had already or at least had ended uh structurally or whatever at a governmental level but can we talk about first what that means when you say that you were not actually oppressed so not being oppressed with regards to who we were as a people our value the goals that we could have what we could accomplish what we could achieve um the system was oppressive and that it would tell us no i mean i have a story maybe if i can share as an example when i was in high school i saw a young man who had this white amazing blazer so in south african public schools you have school uniforms and at the high school that i was at but only high school we had these ugly colored mustard black and white striped lasers and there was this uh this young man who had this gorgeous white blaze and i remember saying i want that blazer and i was told matter of fact that no you won’t get it because you’re black and no black person has got it and so i remember going home and telling my parents i said they were like what do you want and i was like i want that blazer and so they were like you can get that blazer go find out what the requirements are and go get that blazer so hero again was the reaffirmation that the system told us that we couldn’t people told us that we couldn’t um but if we chose that we wanted to we could would it mean that we would have to work harder yes would it mean it would be denied it a couple of times until the system changed yes but with regards to who we were as a people there was nothing that we could do that’s that is a really is nothing that we could not do my apologies right right yeah so that is an incredible outlook to have and kind of a necessary one to have in a system like that that we’re going to insist that we have these things and we’re going to fight as hard and yes it is mean we’re going to it doesn’t mean we’re going to have to fight harder but we’re not going to simply step back and say well we’re black or you know in in the past we’re jewish or we’re scots irish or whatever the you know people that were being oppressed in any given place at any given time just saying okay well that’s my lot in life because of an intrinsic thing i have no control over it just means i’m gonna have to fight harder for that thing i’m gonna have to work harder for that thing that’s an incredible thing to instill in a kid now you said that it was actually it sounded like when you said high school and university so this would be after apartheid ended that you actually experienced your kind of i guess personal uh um uh personal connection to apartheid can you tell us a little bit about what that means of course um so just to be clear for purposes of the people that are listening so there was definitely the experience of it as a family but because um now we knew that these were what the boundaries were it wasn’t really tested with regards to how people personally felt towards each other if i’m making sense so we very well knew that the system was oppressive and there was a bad date and so in the reaction and the interactions that you had with people was the system’s fault almost for people hiding behind the system but when apartheid then finally fell from a political perspective there was still a lot of its lingers both in people’s hearts as well as the attitudes and also the brilliance of how apartheid work was worked was that even though politically right at the top and from a governmental level there was this you know unison as government of national unity and black people could go and frequent places where they couldn’t before because of the architecture of apartheid how people behave towards each other even with regards to hiring processes as well as the way that um you know admissions at universities and that those type of things worked it took a long time so my first real tangible one-on-one experience that i can remember clearly was at university and i was campaigning for a seat on the student representative council myself and others that were also interested in serving in a governance position on campus and i then at the um i think it was a local field there were uh guys that were handing out flowers to two ladies and i was like oh i want a flower let’s go get a flower and i was told matter of fact you know you can’t get a flower you’re black and i was like but i i i don’t understand so one you’re correct in terms of this is after by date so that that question is also like but we’re all the same we’re all here together right we’re all on university campus together and they’re like no and that hurt because i was like all right but you literally are you have no idea who i am you’re judging me purely based on the color of the skin and for something so trivial like a flower as a flower you’re denying that a flower so imagine all the other things that i would be denied and had been denied up until that point but it didn’t really sting as much as when it was one of your colleagues somebody that was your your age doing that to you that’s interesting so you mentioned that you know often people were just hiding behind the system so that sounds like very often in terms of like institutional denial or or or institutional mistreatment it was often a white person that was maybe even reluctant like well i wish i had enough to do this but you know how it is is am i am i saying that so it was like we’re we have similar things it’s not necessarily race-based but where you know you’ll have someone in government that’s just like well i’m just doing my job i wish it wasn’t like this but so that same type of thing so i i guess and this is the caricature that that you would have or i would have of so it wasn’t you know these evil white people that were oh what a finally having a chance to oppress black people today very often it was just someone who’s like sorry that’s my job this is what the paper the what the the regulation says or whatever you can’t have this or you have to go through this extra hoop or whatever so there was some kind of institutional reluctance there it sounds like there was both so so there were some people who were like you know what i wish i could but i can’t um and who were genuine in that statement and then there was some who were very lazy who did not have any intention of doing anything that was going to require them to potentially think about the other person and treating them like a human being and then there were others who were applauding the system and saying yes this is the way that life should work because you are less of that so it was a combination of both yeah yeah so it’s a combination of i’m just doing my job or i like this or i mean i’m shocked to hear a lazy government worker that’s i’ve never heard of such a thing that that must be yeah i was going to say that must be some foreign thing because that certainly doesn’t exist here all of our government workers are very industrious so um okay so so then even after apartheid ends there’s that apartheid thinking of okay you can you can take away our system but we’re still going to mistreat black people as an abstract like not you as an individual but we’re going to mistreat an entire group of people because of our feeling of superiority or and or our bitter bitterness that we lost this system now you you’ve talked about that and what actually sparked my wanting to have you honestly i was looking for an excuse to have you on the show and this finally was a valid one a valid pretext for me to ask you um was um uh your husband joshua had shared uh a story uh about something you had gone through and persevered through uh and i believe it was in was it was that in college that the story that he told okay can you tell us about that sure it’s actually linked to the story of the um the flowers so the campaigning for the student representative council the student government of the day was that and you know everybody’s wanting votes and and um thankfully i was able to get elected on to the student representative council but not only was i then a council member i actually sat on the executive what was interesting is as a council member there were other political parties that were represented and one of them was the aviabia now if anybody wants to do their research on south africa or if you have done your research on south africa there is a prominent afrikaner figure in the 19 the late 1980s and definitely the early 1990s called eugene tara blanche i mean you want to talk racist this man was full of racist it was it was incredible um and so there was a youth wing of his party in the uh the octagon of uh afrikaner bruderborn and they had a youth wearing and um those young men pretty much took on with absolute uh candor and um full confidence the ethos of their party and that was we want nothing to do with black people you are lesser than pretty much if they could call us garbage to our face i’m sure they did and so within the council where we would sit down they would have no black person sit next to them like if a black person tried to stick next to them they would get up and move and it wasn’t just that political party there were also other individual members on the council who wanted nothing to do with a black person anyway so sitting at these meetings was very interesting to observe this and then as an executive member i was assigned a committee that would work with me and in the first year of me serving on student government i was responsible for all of the societies on campus so i think in the uh us um form that would be your different um hmm society’s almost like your different clubs i think that’s what you got would call them spike like you’re different um um let’s just call them clubs because i i can’t think of what yeah and i didn’t go to col and i didn’t go to college so i don’t i don’t know you know well like if they lived in like a math club and uh and a particular sporting class anyway so i was responsible for those um and in my committee were some of the most racist young men and racist young women that i’d ever come across and spike can i tell you they would not talk to me they would not attend my meetings um unless they had to because you were required to attend a minimum and if they attended the meetings they would just sit there and not do anything i was unable to accomplish anything for the first few weeks until a thought dawned on me and that thought was we’re looking in the year 2001 so not too long about six years after the fall of apartheid and in those six years obviously there’s a lot of um tearing down of the systemic or these structures at least that ensure that there was systemic oppression and so these young people felt threatened so for example afrikaans which was one of the main languages it was one of the two official languages was now relegated to something that people like ah we don’t want to do anything with it anymore the university of pretoria which is where i was became instead of just an institution where afrikaans was the medium of instruction there was now dual learning so the stasis of afrikaans was no longer something that was that important english was now there as well as a medium of instruction which then allowed the likes of me to come onto campus and also get an education and do well in that people were no longer speaking of afrikaans and the afrikaans culture which they held very proudly was not something that was just like ah it’s that of the oppression moving along and here’s an introduction of other cultures and and other languages all very very important but when the all on the right of this and everything else is evil um the thought dawned on me that they may actually feel threatened and so the idea came that why don’t you meet them at a place that’s important to them and that was their language and so what olga then started to do as crazy as the idea was i started to speak afrikaans to them and only afrikaans i’d already knew how to speak kind of afrikaans because that was a subject that we had to study um in high school again a remnant of a part of you had to study this language but i wasn’t very proficient in the language and so i taught myself how to speak and i would only speak to them in these languages can i tell you spark after a couple of months it could have even have been weeks i could call a meeting at six o’clock in the morning and they were there i was the only black person who was allowed to sit next to them at our council meetings and it really was i think the fact that they realized that he was a human being and he was another human being and even with our differences and they didn’t even have to like me but we learned to work together because ultimately we were like we don’t have to be threatened she seems to meet us where we are she’s okay with speaking our language and um we were able to accomplish amazing things together and so this is so first of all for those who don’t know afrikaans is b it’s a it’s kind of it’s a language that’s based in uh is it dutch it’s a european language but it’s also i guess like a you can explain it better than i’m sure it’s derived from dutch okay so one of the things from a south african history perspective is that we were colonized by the dutch as well as by the english and um this language the dutch language within uh transformed it a little bit then was known as afrikaans and it was the africanus of people that descended from from holland from the dutch this was their language and and so really when people spoke about this is the language of the oppressor that was the language of the oppressor right okay so by having english now being the i guess universal language as opposed to afrikaans it was both a symbolic victory in that we were no longer you know that would the language of the oppressor was now supplanted by a more common language used by everyone and also the actual real structural change of you don’t get to exclusively have this language be the official language since it’s mostly you that use it we’re now going to use the common language is that is that kind of a accurate just depiction of what was happening there absolutely but not only was it english south africa has got 11 official languages oh wow so now you’ve also got all of these languages that represent the multitude of tribes in south africa that are given equal platforms all all are important and because the majority of people in south africa are not afrikaners afrikaans then just like occupies and is relegated to a status of non-importance anymore and maybe to also illustrate to your listeners how um how powerful afrikaans was as a tool of oppression and in the 1970s 1976 in particular and june 16 is a very important day in south africa’s history and that is when many young students took to the streets to protest the fact that government wanted to introduce afrikaans as the medium of instruction and the only medium of instruction now what did that mean so first of all it meant that even if afrikaans was not your native tongue your native language it wasn’t the language that you grew up in or grew up with you now would be taught in this language only but also if you think about it afrikaans is only spoken in south africa so what then did that do for any black south african in terms of their opportunity to gain an education and use what they’ve learned on the global platform you couldn’t you couldn’t so would that be you were stuck there you couldn’t you couldn’t yeah pretty much and and i mean there’s a lot more nuances there and also how we received an inferior education because the thinking was that as black people we didn’t have the mental capacity we didn’t have the ability to become doctors and engineers and all of these wonderful things we were only good enough to be workers and so our education was dumbed down to only enable us to do that anyway so when you see how powerful a tool of oppression um this language was and then you fast forward to a place where not only now is this language being um put on equal platform with other languages or other should i say these other languages are not elevated to a place of importance your language is being rejected your culture is being rejected and so even though you may have said and you being the the young white african people you may have said okay but it’s not my fault it’s my forefathers who instituted this you’re feeling very threatened and the position could have been which i think ultimately it was what is now my place do i have a place now in this change the change was good it was necessary and it had to happen but they felt out of place well and especially if they’ve been oh by the way folks i know i forgot that so uh ask any questions you have of me or olga and uh and give us your thoughts and we will tell you if you are right or wrong now um i usually open the show with that and i realize i forgot that so he in their mind especially if they’ve been told their whole lives you’re superior these are an inferior people we’re actually doing them a favor by running this system for them because god knows they can never do it on their own and so now you’re being told no actually now they’re pretty much going to be in control of it for no other reason than just numerical advantage and uh your your your language now really doesn’t matter that much anymore uh we’re going to be using the common english tongue as well as all these you know uh various languages of the of the different tribes that live here and and pretty much you’re being brought to basically the same status as everyone else slowly over time that can look like you know there’s a common phrase you know if you’ve been on top equality can look like oppression and so for a lot of them they were feeling uh oppressed or at least relegated and now here you are someone who even in the midst of being told we’re trying to work towards equality is still feeling the sting on your end of of people still trying to tell you no you’re black you’re lesser than because you’re black there’s nothing you can do about it and you had a thought of empathizing with the people doing that and trying to get to where their mindset is and meet them where they are and and as a result you were able to actually have a a fruitful and and productive professional relationship with them and and hopefully also i would i would think help open up their mindset to the idea that black people are not this abstract thing to be put over here they’re actually human beings and maybe hopefully opening up for them to empathize with you as an individual and you as you know you and other black people as as black people um there’s many lessons there and it’s something i talk about a lot with folks you know in growing our movement the liberty movement um that we have to empathize with people you know we get frustrated by what we’re seeing we’re a we’re a um political or ideological minority which is much different than in being an intrinsic minority but we share a frustration of in terms of most people don’t think like us and that can be frustrating to us but i tell people as frustrated as you are you have to meet people where they are because they have valid concerns that and objections that we need to be able to talk about and you’re you’re you take that way past anything i try to tell people um so coming to the us uh and and we we can talk about what brought you here but you know coming to the us what are the things that you see that are similar and and that are different especially in terms of i mean you can say take this wherever you want to but especially in terms of like racial relations in the us compared to south africa what what’s the same what’s different and you can also talk about what what brought you here as well oh yeah maybe let me start with the latter and we can get that out the way so um i’m an attorney by profession in south africa i practice banking and finance law for close on 10 years and then i was like uh i can’t do these 16 hour days that’s just not um i just i need a life um and i wanted to feel as if i was actually contributing to the individual i was making an impact in individuals lives i mean i was part of an incredible team at an incredible law firm wherever wenzel was at the time the top law firm in south africa um but i left because i was like i need some human interaction and not just sitting behind a laptop and so i did um community development as well as working with companies as a consultant with regards to black economic empowerment again a conversation for another day but that was and still is south africa’s legislative attempt to correct the wrongs of apartheid by um incentivizing as well as encouraging and some people will also say penalizing companies if they don’t have the correct number of black people in various positions throughout the company but also in terms of their skills development and work that they do in um in society now um i did that for a little bit and then i was like huh olga you need some business skills and so then i came to the united states virginia beach in particular to study towards a master’s in business administration with a focus on entrepreneurship and sustainable development and in that process uh there was a young man who if i may say he was kind of stalking me on on facebook i actually met his dad uh pasadena sunny washington um online and when when you do have me back as spike for the zionist conversation um you’ll hear me and he was somebody who i looked up to as a mentor and i was like oh my gosh oh my gosh possibly sony washington and um his son then came to to see one of our encounters on facebook and cut a long story short he asked the story goes he asked who that was because i commented and his dad was like she’s out of your league is who she is uh that then had him stalk me i say stalk me he has he has a different version but i say it’s his version this is the truth and he he uh he uh stalked me for a while we chatted for a little bit and and i mean we look at messages today and i’m like oh my gosh i was actually quite bad i would either initiate a conversation or he would initiate a conversation and olga would respond three weeks later because i mean brother man was not in my periphery fast forward um he tried i said no and then he had to come back and i was like okay let’s give this a shot and like you said it moved quite quickly but for us it was like when you know you know it moved quite quickly and um we got married and um we got married in my first year of study i gave birth three days after bifida paper my second year of study and then we now also have been blessed with a six-month-old uh so my mom’s like i sent you to the states for two years and you just haven’t come back so i’m going on my my fifth year living in the states and it’s all josh’s fault anyway so so i i would just i would i would like to add something because i feel like i need to defend joshua slightly in his defense if i recall and you can correct me if i’m wrong you did tell him that he was cute i did i did so that wasn’t okay that was when i i told him no for the first time uh he he held on to that which i’m glad he did i’m a nice girl right i’ve learned the sandwich principle the sandwich principle is worth you need to tell somebody that’s kind of tough that’s not really nice you start off with something great and then you bring on the meat and that’s the difficult part of the conversation then you end it off with something else i did i told i did tell him that he was good looking and he said that um that was a sign that there was hope that was that was the oxygen he needed to survive until you finally gave him a chance and yes that is how men work you you you said you are subjectively according to my opinion attractive and that allowed him that was the the the water and air that he needed to survive those long winter months until you finally then said yes so anyway i’m sorry go ahead so so you were in this so now you’re in the states what are your thoughts about differences and and i guess uh um differences and similarities so before the season i had been to the states several times either on visits or for extended periods of stay but now that um the united states was home i started to see it slightly different right because one i was now married to a black american and and then when i had my boys i’m now raising african-american young men um and and so you do see the racism i would be dishonest if i said that there was no racism in the united states of america i think anybody who denies that fact frankly is either ignorance because you haven’t experienced it or is being dishonest so racism does exist um what was surprising for me though was in my head um the united states had left a system of oppression from a racist perspective in terms of segregation so first of all slavery and then segregation had lifted much longer ago versus a south africa and there were moments when i was like hang on how are you americans still at a place where um you are so racially charged and there are these claims of systemic racism and everything is racist fault and and black people can’t do anything because the white man white supremacy and and all of those various labels and as a south african first of all some of these terms are very new like white supremacy we don’t use that language in south africa and i was like hold on but we we know oppression i mean one of the differences people oftentimes ask me like although what is the difference between the jim crow laws and um about date because both were governed in terms of legislation and the difference is first of all in south africa was across the country it wasn’t just in a particular part of the country whereas the jim crow laws were predominantly actually only down in the south but also from my understanding is that the jim crow laws were actually unconstitutional whereas in south africa apartheid was very much constitutional like it was it was morally the right thing to do um and and so it was in for or at least it was enforced as such as being this is the law this is what’s right yeah yeah correct um and and so when i came from that i was like all right but it seems like there’s a different type of oppression first of all that existed but then also how have you as americans not healed and then also when i looked at the number of africans and the number of immigrants from different countries who have been able to come to the united states of america and make a name for themselves despite the various challenges that exist and yet i still heard of these cries of systemic oppression to be honest like that confused me and and even as i have continued to learn and this has not been a very popular conversation that i’ve had with some of my african-american friends because i think there’s this notion that just because you don’t come from a particular place you’re not allowed to comment on something and i’m like actually no one can offer an opinion and one can offer an observation one can offer an experience as well in my learning and that learning predominantly comes from my african-american family my black american family that americans black americans have had amazing opportunities to do various things in america and that’s evidenced by various factors from if you look at black people that have risen to power in various um spaces whether it’s on local levels or even all the way up into the white house when you look at people in various industries and what they’ve been able to accomplish hasn’t been difficult potentially very much so yes but this whole notion of systemic racism here in the united states is very different to um what i know definitely existed in south africa and for me sometimes it’s even questionable as to whether systemic racism does exist here in the united states or certainly not as white-hot of uh excuse the phrase as as acutely in existence as it may be like for example in south africa so there may be uh some prejudice issues i i honestly and this is my personal opinion ticket for what it’s worth i think a lot of what happens now is more inertia than actual like for example uh i think more of what’s happening now is disproportionate treatment for people based on their income level and their level of wealth meaning the poorer you are the worse off you’re going to be in a system that’s largely based on you know getting permission and paying for that permission from government uh even in the criminal justice system and so forth that the poorer you are the disproportionately worse you’re going to be treated and because of historic things that happened in the past that you know if if a black person is you know more likely statistically to be at the lower income levels then by de fact you know de facto they are going to be more likely to get disproportionate treatment if that makes sense as opposed to this law is designed to oppress black people explicitly it’s more this law is or this regulation or this policy is going to just poorly affect poor people and the the poorer you are the worse off you’re going to be and if you know people of color are more likely to be poor than that by you know by extension then they’re they’re going to be but i’m not sure there’s an actual anything that’s still we’re going to explicitly target black people and i i i may be wrong but i think especially and it’s interesting that someone would tell a black south african who lived during apartheid that their perspective isn’t welcome on a discussion about racism i think that that’s an interesting take to i would think if if i could think of anyone outside of a black american that i would want to talk about race relations even in the united states it would definitely also be a black south african who experienced apartheid no i was very surprised when it happened so it was a debate that i had on my wall and i think to give your your listeners the full context of what had happened i made the claim and that’s something that i believe that um racism is not something that can only be experienced by black people racism can be experienced by any race right um i only believe because within any race group they’re going to be people who are just they’re terrible human beings and they’re gonna treat people um discriminately and and whatever so in making this particular statement it sparked a debate fair enough but when it then came to a place of what felt was a competition of who was the most depressed and that’s not something that i believe in i don’t wear a badge of oppression do i come from a people who were oppressed yes do i come from a system that oppressed us yes um did i have experiences and even from time to time still have experiences when i go back home even here in the united states where it’s oppressive or where where there’s prejudice yes but is that a badge of honor that i wear no um it’s something that we continue to work against and and educate people and reach out to people like i illustrated in the story that happened to me um on college campus many years ago and it’s not one story there are several others like that but when it started then to become a competition of your story is not as valid as our story number one and then number two and i love my american um brothers and sisters there’s so much that you guys have got to offer the world really really really i mean if you look at culture how american culture specifically black american culture has influenced africa over the years i mean it’s without a shadow of a doubt but the one thing that i wish that um people in the united states would learn from africans frankly and from people outside of the american borders is the fact that there is this other world that exists and so there are other perspectives that exist and and so what i what i saw on that wall was how very similarly focused various forms of prejudice as well as um things that were upsetting can only be viewed and only be experienced through the american lens and i was like no yes you know my story is real and i actually had a friend who also contributed from a minority um in in canada and his story was wiped out because it wasn’t the african-american story so it was it was a very weird debate and one that sadly um disappointed me but hey i’m not in the business of competing for the the badge of who’s the most oppressed well so this is an interesting perspective we’ve we’ve talked about this we had talked about this before there is a very interesting thing in any branch of american culture including in my opinion black american culture that we often as you said forget that there are other countries on this planet and other people in them uh so we make up about 300 and i think 30 millions give or take people there are 7.6 billion people on this planet which means we often in the way that we discuss things forget that there are 7.2 something trillion people or billion people on the planet who literally are not us and i i notice it even in the discussion it’s in our foreign policy how we talk about stuff it’s in our economic and trade policy how we talk about things but i notice that when uh uh people are having discussions about racial relations there is it is as though the racism and the effects of racism and the debate over racism only america matters in that and they never actually say it that way but they might as well be and it’s a very and i’ve brought it up and again i’m a white person who has not experienced anything that anyone could ever classify as institutional oppression in any serious way the worst things i’ve experienced are some jew jokes that i didn’t find funny as opposed to the ones i did find funny so this is you know that’s my level of oppression in in my personal life and i’m very grateful for that but so my perspective obviously huge grain of salt you take it with when i’m talking about my opinion or critique of talking about racial relations but one thing that i have said many times is i would just like everyone to know that we are having a very uniquely american discussion right now and that the fact that if someone brings up something that’s happening in another country that’s being dismissed outright as irrelevant uh or not the same or not as important that is as american as it gets or at least as amerocentric as it gets as saying like well that doesn’t matter because that’s not the same as whatever thing we’re taught and it’s like actually that thing’s probably way worse but because it’s not something you’re experiencing and because you’ve learned to be an american through and through that thing doesn’t matter because it’s not here is that is that kind of what you’re saying here because that’s that’s what it feels like no abs absolutely um again one of the amazing things that americans have to offer the world is the spirit of patriot um patriarchy patriotism excuse me um you’re very patriotic for the most part um but when all that matters is the united states of america and no other opinion matters and no other country matters and no other history matters and better than this is like you need to sit down yeah well in the cree again these are the ones that aren’t necessarily patriotic but it’s that same mindset it’s still that like america is all that matters so i guess in that way they are patriotic or at least they’re uh i guess amerocentric is the only way i can say it like they’re only they’re just literally the like even the ones that will say something like america was never great okay great but then when you when you and that’s their they have the right to that opinion whatever that even means great whatever but again when they’re taught the same way that someone who would drive around with a american flag cap and a bald eagle you know perched on their shoulder and you know waving around a shotgun with the big gigantic star spangled banner off the back of their pickup truck would talk about the american experience is all that matters these folks would also largely have the same opinion that the american experience is all that matters and i i don’t i think there’s many reasons for that um i think we dominate uh western culture uh and we are tend to be among the wealthiest our our level of what we consider poverty is a joke in most other countries there there’s many different reasons for it but i it’s certainly an ugly thing and i think if if at any point i’m having a conversation about race and i am telling someone who experienced apartheid that they you know they’re they should check their privilege then i think i’m probably i’m probably off base here do you think that there is a treatment because i don’t want to put word in your words in your mouth i’ve heard before uh people that have said that you know africans are benefiting from the struggles that have been done by african americans in the past in this country and i certainly agree from the standpoint of we don’t have slavery we don’t have uh jim crow and and institutional segregation and things like that um but it almost feels like correct me it feels like they’re telling black people like whatever you came from in africa is nowhere near as bad as anything that ever happened here yes it’s so not only is it not um anywhere near as bad but it’s also like you have got no rights to dream and to achieve because if you dream and you achieve then you’re actually doing the ancestors who if we want to be real and let’s go all the way back to the slave trade those ancestors came from where from from africa so um then also you know when people say that okay but you are and and yes i i i respect that this is um how some people feel that you don’t have to you don’t have to worry about slavery and all of those other things but african americans today don’t have to worry about that so i i failed to see the rationale between those and it really is in my opinion um well let me put it this way at times it feels like a cop-out it feels like a cop-out for not wanting to work hard not wanting to have to jump over hurdles that africans and immigrants also have to i mean again a topic for another day i can tell you about the hurdles that i had to jump through in order to become a legal citizen excuse me a legal uh resident permanent resident in this country there were hurdles and did i sit down and sit in the corner and woe is me woe is me and the immigration policies of this country are xenophobic and i have to start from scratch and i mean there are days when i i disliked it but okay i’ll get get up and and prove your worth and why people on a whole can’t do that is is for me a question and together with my husband i really hope that we’ll be raising our sons to know that they are always going to be people that are going to be coming for you who are going to discount your worth and discount your abilities and and who may make rules whether those rules are morally valid or not that will try and hamper you but you need to be like all right that’s what you think about me let me show you well especially i mean if you think and i’ve said this many times let’s say that everything they’re saying is correct okay that there are there is still a cabal of oppressors that are working every day to do everything they can to stop black people or even specifically american-born african-americans because i’ve heard that too that you know they’re just targeting african-americans not black africans would anyway uh let’s say that’s true let’s say that’s true your oppressor to whatever extent the suppressor exists in any real way your oppressor would love nothing more or even just racist people people that are racist against black would love nothing more for you to be miserable and to never succeed and to you know barely be able to thrive and to only be able to exist on the help and good will of others and to you know never never even have dreams much less me you know accomplish your dreams and to be angry and bitter and upset and and and you know end up in prison or just end up in a life of media that would be the huge victory for them if for no other reason than to stick it to them you would want to thrive and prosper and i would imagine that’s at least part of you know what you were being told is like okay growing up like okay there are these people that don’t want us to do well we’re gonna do well anyway even though it’s going to be harder for us than it would be for them and how foolish are they gonna look that we’re living as well as them or as close to as well as them and they have all these advantages so i would think of anything you know it’s certainly easy for me to say i’ve never experienced it but i would hope that for someone in that situation that it would be a motivator to succeed and to you know do the thing and historically if you look at what black people in this country have done uh certainly in the past if you look at things like black wall street and the harlem renaissance and and and and even uh things like rosewood and all this was black people who instinctively knew that every advantage was every disadvantage was on them to the point of of local governments looking for excuses to round them up and kill them if they could and yet they did everything they could to try to thrive if for no other reason then that was all they could do so and and like you said there’s we could have many different discussions about this this may have to end up becoming a series but maybe just interject with one other thing there um like you know one of the questions that i have when people just want to bemoan so i’m talking about doing more than just being like ah the situation is not great we need to do something about it but just want to sit there and complain and complaining what does that do for your children how does that move how does that move us forward how does that progress things right um surely you want a situation you want a lifestyle you want a culture that will be less hard for your children so you do the work so that your children don’t have to do the work number one number two um if i may share personal experience that that also gave me i think a better understanding of this power struggle because ultimately it’s about power and control in both instances so if i only claim that i’m the victim all the time there’s a sense of power there’s a sense of control it because i can um dictate to people what i want and and tell them how things need to be and and so there’s this kind of um feeling of of you need to listen to me and i have the mic and i have the platform blah blah so my husband um went away for a couple of days being a musician that he is and he left me with the two little babies now i say he left me he didn’t leave me he’s he’s responsible man but i for two nights two three nights i was you’re abandoned excuse me he abandoned you basically for two days have fun to have fun anyway so um i’m now home and i’ve got my two and a half year old and i have i think at the time judah was five months and i was like what am i gonna do like i’ve never been home alone and and then in the mornings need to get them ready and then work and pick them up and then i was like frazzled for me it was a case of all right get up do what you need to do and take it hour by hour was it hard yes it was but by the end of the time that he was gone he being josh and he came back i was like babe i did it so for me it was actually it was both empowering but i’ll be honest i thought about if i was gonna tell him that i was actually able to cope why because now that i was able to cope without him he then possibly doesn’t have to do as much around the house anymore because i can actually do it but then where’s my power to be like you have to do this you have to do this do you get what i’m saying so it was i had to let go of some control i had to let go of some control because then i would choose to be empowered to say although you can do this right right right but in doing that i had to let go of the control to be like i need you i or i can’t bust you around anymore i can’t demand that you do various things because actually i don’t need you so it was an interesting interesting intention for me and i think that at times when people that have been oppressed and still made from time to time experienced prejudice they have to think and be like you know what i’m actually going to let go of this control of complaining and always me and beating my heart and people can feel sorry for me and do all of these things with me and actually be like you know what i can do this for myself and there’s a different type of not only liberation in my opinion that comes from that but a different type of empowerment that comes from that if people will only dare so you had to give up your bargaining chip with your husband that like i can’t do this on my own you need to help me but in doing so you actually are more empowered in doing it now i’ve been married enough long enough to know that that will still you’re still going to use the bargaining chip like i i i know the things let me go away yes oh i’m sorry what were you saying what was your last name i was going to say that the bargaining chip will be for other things yeah no exactly yeah no it is what it is uh i i learned that long time ago i gave up my control and power a long time ago it doesn’t exist in any real way uh i am the man of the house whatever whatever that’s even supposed to mean um but uh and that’s a fantastic i and i couldn’t be happier uh something janet uh janice mckenzie said in the comments she said you know racist miserable people are basically mentally ill it’s a form of mental illness so why are you letting mentally ill people dictate how you’re going to live like do your best to not let their mental problems you know you know even if it means you have to work harder just go ahead and work past it so i i wanted to to talk about before we because i i want to be respectful of your time um what’s happening in south africa right now i think most of us have seen uh have seen the images of and i don’t know how widespread it is you know when you watch it online they make it look like it’s happening all over the country i don’t know if it’s in just a specific area or across the whole country but in reaction to the arrest of the former president uh jacob zuma i think his name is um there have been riots and protests across the country um the imagery makes it appear as though south africa is burning down to the ground but i have watched them do the same thing where you know places that i literally was campaigning in last year i’d have people you know frantically contacting me uh and saying you know you can’t do an event in portland it’s burning to the ground and i’m like i’m in portland right now that’s happening in a five square block area over there we’re fine so if you give me your thoughts on that what what is it that you know about what’s happening over there is it widespread and what do you think the issue is there that needs to be dealt with all right as succinctly as i can um and again some background for your viewers that may not be familiar with south africa’s politics so our current president is president sura ramakosa before he took office we had prison and zuma who was in office for uh two terms and in those terms he didn’t complete a second term but in those terms there was a lot of corruption a lot of looting that happened under his helm um and then there have been um allegations that he himself was involved at some levels in that corruption and so after he um stepped down as our president and ceramic poster took over even though the anc continued to be in power so the anc is still the governing body uh the governing party but just different um leaders um there was a state of commission that was that was that was put in place the state commission of inquiry excuse me for one second i just need to plug in this laptop so that um it doesn’t we don’t need you no we don’t want to lose me no we don’t want to lose you you’re getting right to the part about south africa right how are we going to do this um okay so i’m going to go through the comments while while we’re having there we go uh while we’re uh while uh olga is getting her her stuff together on her side thank you some comments here um uh matt hicks says everybody love everybody damn it that’s pretty succinct matt thank you um and uh a lot of comments here saying how fantastic olga is this is what happens when i have like very bright brilliant women on my show no one cares about me anymore whatever um um let’s see janice says several african language are whistled to communicate over long distances individual languages such as berber arabic igbo swahili hassa i didn’t know that [Music] someone else said racism has no actual base it is something that is taught um uh audrey treadway says uh that talking earlier that it was a great way for you to try and connect with them uh the business is business and uh need to get the work done and found a way to meet and work with them even with their apprehension that is perseverance i love it awesome someone actually said something nice about me they said that they love muddied waters that’s fun um someone actually had some more questions about uh she called it affirmative action that’s what we call in the u.s but what you were talking about with the racial i guess racial hiring equity um that is definitely a subject for another day that might have to be a whole episode in and of itself to talk more about that um and uh uh uh you’re a delight and we can’t lose you i assume that they’re talking about you um someone said that we do still care about you sure thank you not just just i said that um someone said we care that you’re half pink i don’t that’s not very nice um i’m not half pink i have vitiligo okay and that makes me half pink um okay so we have you back you are here thank you for that so when he stepped down there was in this commission of inquiry that was instigated and he was told make an appearance to answer the case that’s been made against you cut a long story short he was like no nope i’m not appearing um until he was subpoenaed didn’t go and then a warrant for his arrest was made because he was found to be um in contempt of court and that warrant for his arrest was made by the constitutional court in south africa that is the highest court in the land okay so his supporters were like you are um going after him he’s um this is all just politics dirty politics he can’t touch him there were threats of violence um if he was going to be arrested and in fact people actually camped outside his home in the province of kwazulu-natal south africa uses provinces not states so in the province of kozulu natal which is where he hails people were parked outside camped outside his home but thankfully he um gave himself up and he was taken into custody and what many thought even though there had been rumors that there was going to be war should he be arrested it didn’t matter how should he be arrested that there was going to be violence um in a few days and after his his being taken into custody there was there was terrible riots and not just violence spike where people were um you know throwing stuff and looting but violence to the extent that uh malls were being burned down and um different communities were coming for each other thankfully even though it was horrific it did not spread to the entire country uh the hot spots of the violence the hot spots of the looting and the absolute destruction of private property and unfortunately there was a loss of loss of lives that happened in the province of kuzulu natal and also how things so halting is where cities such as johannesburg were found and so it happened predominantly in those two places okay um the reasons for that definitely political people with nefarious political agendas a lot of the looting just made no sense and south africa for those who may not know is regarded as having one of the highest if not the highest inequality gaps in the world so we have the rich the very very rich then we have the very very poor and that gap is massive even though south africa acquired political freedom in 1994 we still have not got what we consider economic freedom meaning that black people are also experiencing other fruits from an economic perspective of their labor and also opportunities in the land benefiting from the resources that exist in the country and again there’s a lot of factors for that so there is desperation amongst the poor and but what we saw wasn’t just desperation amongst the poor was it was just it was horrible looting i mean people using cranes um or these truck like cranes and we have different names for these vehicles but imagine with me these massive trucks that you would use to pack massive tvs or cars in a warehouse people taking those things i mean you’re not going to be able to use it you don’t have a house what are you going to do with this thing but exactly exactly so it made it made absolutely no sense so there was a deliberate agenda to destroy um and to cause racial tension fortunately though um many communities got um i want to say they saw it that they realized that one we were heading to some form of civil war um blacks fighting blacks but also blacks fighting other races and we had people who were personally armed standing guard around their homes standing guard around other people’s businesses and saying that even though we don’t know who the owner of this business is it’s within our community and if you want to get to that business you need to get to us um so we also saw taxi drivers forming barriers at malls and saying you’re not going to burn down this more because where are the people that we commute to and from work where are they going to work and if they don’t work we’re not going to have um work so that quickly they started to happen where everyday citizens stood up and said no no no no what was unfortunate was how things were able to get so out of hand before government intervened um thankfully now there is calm but there are rumors and rumblings that the violence that we saw um may flare up again because jacob zuma is still um in prison so this is where i’m confused i’ve the things i’ve heard about jacob zuma um are that he was very corrupt um that he is potentially also a rapist um and all sorts of like really terrible things about him and and i take these things with a grain of salt because there could be a political agenda against him whatever whether or not those things are true um okay jacob zuma’s black but cyril ramaphosa is black the anc is a i believe all or mostly black representative party south africa is at least at a national level run by black people i don’t know if uh is it what’s the name of the province which one where jacob’s inside yeah natal i don’t i don’t know if that’s also run primarily by black people um but okay so this is because i keep hearing it’s about racial tension but it’s it’s and again i don’t know the different tribe relations or anything like that but it seems from my very white very or pink very american standpoint that this is a black government that is arresting a former black official and and and black people are rioting mostly against other black people because this is a overwhelmingly majority black country where is the is there is there a racial aspect to it and if so why am i how am i missing this so the racial aspect comes in remember i spoke about the fact that people are not experiencing economic freedom the racial aspect will come in where people will say um there’s this white monopolist capitalism right the white man’s capital and the white man still pulls the strings with regards to businesses and how businesses are doing so that’s where the racial element creeps in but to your point you are absolutely correct and how i’m hoping that most south africans are starting to see that there’s a reason for jacob zuma’s popularity which i’ll speak to in a moment but you are 100 correct that in a country that is 88 black black government been a black government since 1994 right we have a black president now jacob zuma’s black the head of the police is black the police that are racist and we’re black i mean it’s black right that’s who we are so i just keep seeing black people yeah i i saw a handful of of white taxi drivers and a handful of white people that were like on their rooftops with guns in case the riot made its way to their neighborhood or whatever those are the only white people i’ve seen in everything that i’ve seen it’s been all black people sorry go ahead yeah so so the the problem is definitely in my opinion not a racial thing um there’s many issues of corruption there are many issues of even tribalism um again conversation for another day and it really is in my opinion an example of how even within a particular race you can have problems of how people treat each other and how people are governed and and how people view each other um the white man did wrong all right on the african continent but not everything is a white man’s fault let’s be honest it’s about time and i say this very humbly it’s about time that africans and black africans in particular start taking some responsibility for where we are yeah i so so then we’re not the only country um well i don’t i don’t know how much i want to say this i’ll go ahead and say so so we’re not the only country where where often the the blame is put on someone that may not necessarily then be at fault i i do understand also jacob zuma often did a lot of racial rabble rousing and i can’t help but suspect that might also be part of it is that maybe the current president ramaphosa maybe isn’t quite as rabble rousey and therefore he’s being you know accused of being cozy with the white man or something like that is that maybe possibly part of it or so i spoke to um why jacob zuma is still popular he was really viewed for most people as the people’s president as a president of the poor man as a president of somebody who um would care about not just the middle class but but really the poor whereas um so ramakosa very quickly after south africa went into democracy he was able to acquire a men’s wealth it means wealth and so he’s a little bit more detached from the ordinary citizen the ordinary black person on the street um and so then there is this tension you know let’s go back to this whole white monopoly capital uh so you know he’s seen as as being in the white man’s uh back pocket and and doing things that predominantly so the white agenda in in south africa whereas jacob zuma was somebody who served predominantly the black people but then i asked my fellow black south africans to say okay but let’s talk about the corruption and the losing that happened under his watch right i’m not saying that sir ramaphosa’s got it perfect no he’s got some problems again story for another day but there’s this height that we have elevated uh former president jacob zuma and actually it’s not that many south africans most of them have have um caught on to the fact that you know what his relationship with the guptas and various other things that he did were not um if i may say we’re not kosher um but he still has got a very specifically and quasi-natal he still got a very strong following a very popular following okay so this was not and this is i’ve learned this with you know especially on social media and media in general you know you can do some videos of a handful of things that make it look like this is happening everywhere this was not widespread this is not all of black south africa is revolting against the system blah blah blah okay all right so that that and the fact that it from what i’ve understood it’s pretty much over at least for now lent itself to the idea that the people that were telling me that this was you know because i was being told you know you should cover this you know on my social media this is a a racial civil war that’s happening and they’re showing me these videos and i’m saying these videos look terrible they look like some extremely terrible riots and looting that are happening by the way the word you were looking for is forklifts uh forklifts they were stealing because that’s the average person needs a forklift right um you know i could see stealing a tv i can’t see stealing a forklift i don’t i don’t i mean you shouldn’t but stealing a tv that’s bigger than the size of your living area i mean that’s for real i mean listen it’s a surround then it becomes immersive right because it’s the whole wall anyway whatever i so so a for but a forklift yeah you don’t need a forklift so okay so that that explains that um and i guess so i guess the uh i i don’t this has been such an incredible conversation i before i let you go and i am so grateful that you that you are on and that you’re that you’re you’re you’re very attractive husband has allowed uh this time for you to have this time with with us and the and the followers here um we’ll have to thank him personally uh we’ll actually be listening to his music during the outro but before i let you go i want to give you a chance uh to give any final thoughts anything that you want to impart leave our our with our our audience with um olga meshway washington i think i said it again correctly uh the floor is yours well spark if i can address you first um you know when people talk about showcasing africa even if it’s not in a positive light or at least in relation to an event that’s going on um to the extent that it fits within what you’re wanting to communicate to your viewers i would encourage you to do so um and and also to bring to the forum many of africa’s struggles because there are struggles that africa is having that unfortunately don’t currently fit the narrative of what people want to see on on mainstream media but africa’s africa is good we’re going to be okay um to your listeners thank you for ensuring that an incredible person like spike is able to have this platform um and i would encourage you at any opportunity especially if you are parents or people that have got influence with young people tell those young people that there is nothing that they cannot do and that in doing that let them be kind to the person next to them i’m looking forward to a society where we can encourage each other where we can compete because it brings out the best in each other and yeah let’s work forward in terms of not only continuing to make america a place that many people look up to um but also a place that can positively influence other people other nations that’s fantastic you’re you’re amazing i know you can’t run for president because you weren’t born here but you know maybe if i get elected president then i change the rules of the conversation that you can yeah it’s it’ll be a it’ll be a it won’t be nepotism because we aren’t technically related but it will be kind of a self-serving thing so again thank you so much olga for coming on you are fantastic stick around we’re going to talk during the outro folks thank you so much for tuning in to this amazing episode of my fellow americans it’s amazing because you’re here so uh be sure to tune in tomorrow uh thursday at 8 pm eastern for the writer’s block matt wright is going to be interviewing i know this randall daniel the chair of the libertarian party of kentucky he will be on tomorrow uh and then friday at 9 30 tune in to cajun and eskimo from bayou to igloo then this weekend there’s nothing i’m not going anywhere there’s no shows just enjoy your weekend i’m gonna enjoy mine because i literally don’t have to go anywhere for like the first time since like june and i’m so excited i’m gonna sleep mostly you can catch me sleeping uh and then on monday tune in right back here 8 p.m eastern for mr america the bearded truth with jason lyon i don’t know what he’s going to be talking about but it’s going to be fantastic i do know that uh join us right back uh on tuesday at 8 p.m for the muddy waters of freedom where matt wright and i parse through the week’s events like the sweet little cherubs that we that we try to be uh and then right back here next wednesday same spike place same spike time for another fantastic episode of my fellow americans i can’t wait to have you back on thanks again uh for joining us i’ll see you next week i’m spike cohen and you are the power god bless guys [Music] yay [Music] [Music] [Applause] i can’t [Music] [Music] if you slide in my kicks it might fit we might just unite and come together become hybrid at the least slightly like-minded indeed the life i’ve lived brings light to kindness all you need is a sign put a cease to the crimes put an ease of the minds like mine sometimes darkness is all i find you know what they say about an eye for a night in a time when the blood is the blood who am i to deny with a loved one dies i recognize that’s my sister mother father brother is [Music] tell me why [Music] [Music] will make a change [Music] [Music] you